Wormholes

I can't speak for all c2 corps, but I know some that just don't want to deal with hauling the parts in, let alone the cost itself.

When i was talking about escalationwaves i was most likely talking about escalations happening due to Marauders or Battleships.

Anyway, i agree on , it all will become worse if ribbonpries sink more, so the question here is -> How can we increase the reward in lower classes while stop ribbonprice decreasing or make it rise again ?

The idea of increasing blueloot price might be the way to go, still on the other hand how can we stop ribbons from falling in price?

Logical next questions:

How much must blueloot be worth to make c1-3 (c4) more balanced with their reward compared to c5 ?

Wouldn't an overall blueloot buff also increase the gap from c5/6 to c1-4 again and wouldn't this also make c1 farming more viable than c2/c3 farming as it is right now ?

Dreadblapping IS allready real in c2 space, i could name a lot of J-Tags here now with at least 4 known dreads, however mos of them were c2 NS/c5

Would allowing ONE Capital passing c1-4 holes change the fleetsetup ballanec by a lot ? I'd say no it wouldn't, because a 8 people fleet can beat any single triage carrier if setup smart, also i'd like to see welping archons into some of above mentioned holes beeing blapped :D for those WHs without a proper dreadfleet, a single archon can be handed because the totaljumpmass will limit fleets to ~ 20 t3 + triage, which can be beaten by 10 people + triage. all you need to do is balancing the jumpmasses and we are fine ( yes i know about some smart solutions like having biggermassships in hangar of the triage)

If we increase isk/hour in lower classes, would this increase wormhole population ? This is where i would say NO, because most people i ask ain't blaming the money for not living in wormholespace of any class, they dislike scannmechanics and no local and rather stay in kspace, this is because wspace is unique and the majority of eve dislikes it.


So my opinion is that i'm , as a c2 dweller, would be okay with facing at least up to 1 capital or 2 capitals if they decide to crush the hole with them, we hav to keep in mind that a 2 billion mass hole used by a carrier wont allow more than 30 T3s in total to pass into both directions, if the oponent is smart and alrleady used an orca to crossjump, the triage will be left alone in the c2 without his fleet having a chance to reach him, so yes there are tactics out there to counter those kind of fleets, all you need to do is getting rid of 600mil mass, the hole wont shrunk and the hostiles will leeory a triage into your hole GG ;)
If people are not smart enough to find solutions, who are more than obvious, then they deserve to get whiped out

Yeah, capital escalations in lower class wormholes are unrealistic, and that was never what I had in mind. Instead, we use the same basic mechanic wherein warping a certain ship class (short of capitals) to a site escalates that site. But... I think that gets really hard to balance correctly, particularly in terms of what ships are required. Also, if these escalations don't require capitals (big risk) then the payouts should be less, and if the payouts are less then the lower-higher gap still remains.

Worth noting: there should always be a gap in income between lower and higher class wormholes in that you should make more in the latter than the former. But, that gap seems excessively large right now.


I generally agree with RcTamiya's post but would clarify that I think we need to increase the relative income of lower class wormholes, which is why I think removing escalations is the best solution. Like RcTamiya said, people don't live in wspace, in general, because of other mechanics, not because of a lack of isk.

I agree that adjusting blueprint material requirements would be a good idea. But as for scaling blue loot more accurately, Meytal, I don't think that'll work without removing escalations. It seems like sites and anoms are balanced in terms of risk vs rewards across all of wspace. This includes escalations. But this balance exists only when we focus in on each site and ignore everything else (i.e. wspace as a whole). If we try to adjust blue loot values to solve a macro problem without addressing escalations then lower class wormholes will see an increase in reward for the same risk, which I think creates an imbalance at the micro level.

Removing escalations might also take the edge off of declining nanoribbons prices.

Edit: Removing escalations (or not having escalations in lower class wormholes) would discourage home site farming.

This.

I can mostly agree on this but....
- ribbons are what the money comes from in low classes, blue loot in c2 is ~ 100k isk a frig ? this is just a joke if you aint lucky with ribbondrops a c2 site can end up with ~ 5-10 mio in worsed case consuming up to 10 minutes in a poorly fit t2 tengu or HAC
- C5/C6 fix is simple -> make escalations able only one time with 4 waves each site ( NO reset after downtime) no need to reduce ribbondrops there
- C1 space shouldnt be more worth than lvl 3 missions, but rather have them equal


But i rather have more pvpers in wormholespace than carebears who either hide in pos or fight with not less than 4 falcons

Hmm ok, I didn't know that. What are all those people whining about then -.-

So you're asking for c1s to stop feeding the wallets of those aspiring newbros that just found out how THEY could create ISK. Swift move, thank you. C2 are the bane of any sentient wormholian regarding pve - no one does it anymore once they figured that out, so please let the newbros figuring it out have their reward.

Lowclass wormhole dwelling is imo the biggest joke you could come up with, you got all the risks of higher class wormhole-space, you're **** vulnerable like **** while running those sites, you need better equip than to farm even havens in null - and all for a fraction of the reward. If anything, the loot in c2s just should go up by a factor of three+.

We also do NOT complain that c1s are worth more than c2/c3, this is your interpretation - we complain that c2/c3-sites are worth LESS than c1-sites, even though you need a navy mael/raven/dominix to run them in acceptable time. C1s are fine, they create space for very small entities to live in, for newbros to learn the basics and for vets to ash through those sites with zealot/legion, however the payouts of those higher class sites, especially c2s, are just offending.

Also, to live in a wormhole you give up on a lot. Clonejumping, assembling of those T3s you just built, no secure storage at all, no local to protect from hostiles, no station you can dock in, the average crew to run homesites escalate even brings some double digit billions of assets at risk to the table. You can create some burst-income that has fantastic letters written all over it, like 250mil/hr in a big dreadfleet, 400mil/hr in a small one, 500mil on classic expo and 600mil on solo expo an hour, however the time you can do that is limited, and you can't multibox multiple sites, even though you need to have multiple accounts running to create such kind of income. You just try to kill the little bit of sustain there is.
If you were to enforce such a change as advocated (no farming of escalations), then the two top-ends don't give a ****. The expocrew just moves more frequently, soloexpo just runs from hole to hole, they don't care. Or *the farmers won't really care*. On the other side, people that live for the pew normally got no income besides those home-escalations and the quite ****** and risky income from some minor activities like running static sites (=soloexpo), datas with 1/2 tengus, sucking c320 since other polymers aren't worth touching and a few others.

Tl;dr: Removing farm-able escalations will barely touch expocrews, which already make the majority of cash in w-space. It will hurt all those people that want to actually *content*, by removing the one serious form of income they have without running DEDs in null or employing a FW-alt or nullsec-alt.

So nerf C5 and C6 income and fewer people will be attracted to that space, that potentially means:
1. Fewer people will be sharing the reduced income which means individual pilots won't see a significant decrease in income.
2. Fewer blobs, more gangs.

If you effectively increase lower class income (by nerfing higher class income) and attract more people to wspace, that potentially means:
3. More gangs in lower class wormholes.

So now we have more gangs fighting gangs? That sounds like problem solved!

The problem is essentially C5/6 dwellers are bored. The evidence is in this thread and elsewhere. It includes the unwillingness of lower class dwellers to speak up on the forums about the state of wspace for fear of becoming a target, because C5/6 dwellers are bored. It includes the threat of "fight us and sacrifice ships to Bob, or we'll burn your system to the ground," because C5/6 dwellers are bored. It includes the complaint that higher class wormholes don't have enough content, because C5/6 dwellers are bored. It includes the need to organize 5v5 fights versus higher and lower class dwellers, because C5/6 dwellers are bored. It includes the suggestion to create more C4 statics (which is arguably to the benefit of higher class dwellers) to create more potential targets, because C5/6 dwellers are bored.

Take away the extra income of escalations (either altogether, or fix their respawning, the latter of which sounds like a more realistic and good first step) and C5/6 dwellers will no longer be (or be less) bored. Yeah, they'll spend some more time farming and less time roaming, but you're not getting good fights anyway so what's the loss here? Yeah, they might field different ships for pvp, which means you're either flying a suboptimal ship and enjoying a more evenly matched fight, or your flying a blinged out ship you might not be able to afford losing. Either way, there's a bit more excitement in a fight. Yeah, they'll have to dive into other wormholes to farm, not just to roam... and if everyone is doing this dual statics for all wormholes won't be necessary. All of these are good things for the state of wormholes as a whole, and, I would argue, for C5/6 dwellers themselves.

To some degree, arguing over C1/2 incomes is irrelevant because it's not addressing the problem. Even if you buff their incomes they're not going to be able to support the fleet sizes necessary to take on larger entities, which means you're probably buffing the income of solo/dual boxing players who aren't going to increase interactions in wspace.

Yeah Armakoir, you're talking rubbish.

Well, the ISK discussion is off-base as it relates to C1-C4. ISK should be made in your static, not your home. And yes, a C3/C4 static can support a very large corp, contrary to what some would like to believe. But we have said this for literally years now, usually falling on deaf ears. This is especially true if you figure ISK over time, not just a marathon session or C5/6 escalation spree. Running C3/C4 sites can be done by 1-2 people making them much more accessible to your entire corp than a higher class escalation. It isn't sexy, but it works, and keeps even your lowest skilled members entertained and flying relatively shiny ships.

As for changes, sure, give us some random triggers, some sort of non-cap escalation mechanic, anything to put a little variation into them. Use a C5 Quarantine Area as a template and go from there. Heck, I would even love to see Sleeper Incursions, woohoo. But currently, I don't really care what class wh it is, running most sites is about as challenging/mind-numbing as running hs missions, other than the gank potential. But stupid can't be fixed, and no matter what, folks will keep running all classes of site without proper scouting, regardless of what changes are made.