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Are Minmatar ships the best PvP Ships in the game in all tiers?

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Paikis
Vapour Holdings
#21 - 2014-03-09 18:47:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Paikis
The "best ship" is the one with the most friends.

Stop trying to get "teh leetest ship in teh game!" and go make a friend. Two ships is better than one almost every time.
Caitlyn Tufy
Perkone
Caldari State
#22 - 2014-03-09 22:09:22 UTC
Paikis wrote:
The "best ship" is the one with the most friends.

Stop trying to get "teh leetest ship in teh game!" and go make a friend. Two ships is better than one almost every time.


Paikis is right, "best ship" = Friendship
Taoist Dragon
Okata Syndicate
#23 - 2014-03-19 23:11:41 UTC
Chessur wrote:
Rab See wrote:
Omara Otawan wrote:
Once you realize that a plated Thorax has no issue catching a single-speedmod Stabber, the supposed speed king of the T1 cruiser lineup, you'll clearly see the problem.

Sure, overheat mechanics with MWDs (cycle) play a role here, but the core issue is that minmatar ships don't have a distinct enough speed advantage anymore, let alone agility.


Yes - it was speed, agility and utility as a race, now they are just wholly 'meh'. Look at the HACs - one trick pony or what. Nothing useful there.

Loki - cant be used for anything other than heavy tackle. And others bring DPS and heavier tackle, plus ... well .. all that Minmatar used to bring.

The recent changes just homogenized everything. Choose your race on the ships that look nice - blandly.



This is wrong, Plated thorax- is not faster than a stabber. Infact, no T1 cruiser has a faster speed than the stabber. So please stop.

And the problem with kiting, and minny ships- are not the hulls. They easily have the agility and speed to do so when properly fit. Its the fact that minny ships are using a trash tier weapon system, and have no reliable platform to bring DPS from 30K.


This ^

Damn I'm agreeing with Chessur! (Also when did you join the Amarr militia?!)

Minmatar are very much in a 'middle of the road/jack of all trades master of none' position now they are not OP since teiricide as their most valuable asset (speed) has been drastically reigned in buy the other races now. They generally still have the highest top speed but are often lacking in agility to fully utilise that speed and with the medium long range weapon changes and the TE nerfs their damage projection is much less than other races now.

I'll still fly them lots though :)

That is the Way, the Tao.

Balance is everything.
Katran Luftschreck
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
#24 - 2014-03-20 04:33:01 UTC
You know that scene in the "The Crow?"

"I thought you were, like, invincible?"
"I was. I'm not anymore."

That's kind of what ship rebalancing did.

http://youtu.be/t0q2F8NsYQ0
Lilith Velkor
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#25 - 2014-03-20 19:35:35 UTC
Jon Joringer wrote:
The Glory Days of Winmatar have come and gone. Due to the rebalancing initiative put forth by CCP, known as 'teircide,' all other races have encroached on what made Minmatar Winmatar (namely, speed, damage projection). That isn't to say Minmatar ships are terrible now, they're just, most of them, in a strange place of not being terribly good at anything.


In fact, they weren't even that great to begin with, but rather the direct competitors all used to have some distinct weaknesses that allowed the flexible slot layout combined with decent speed advantage tip the fight in your favor, given you knew how to exploit that weakness.

Now with most ships being just as versatile, almost as fast, with better tank or damage output or even both, they mostly end up being average or below average at what pretty much every ship can do. That doesn't really work that well in a game where a 5% advantage makes a gigantic difference.
Little Dragon Khamez
Guardians of the Underworld
#26 - 2014-03-20 23:11:15 UTC
Jon Joringer wrote:
The Glory Days of Winmatar have come and gone. Due to the rebalancing initiative put forth by CCP, known as 'teircide,' all other races have encroached on what made Minmatar Winmatar (namely, speed, damage projection). That isn't to say Minmatar ships are terrible now, they're just, most of them, in a strange place of not being terribly good at anything.


That's how I feel about amarr ships, balancing must be working then if no one is happy.

Dumbing down of Eve Online will result in it's destruction...
Luwc
State War Academy
Caldari State
#27 - 2014-03-21 08:17:47 UTC
there is no best race or best ship....

Every ship and every race has its upsides and downsides and roles they shine at.

Minmatar though are the most versatile but also the most skill requiring.

to give you a very very very very rough idea :

Caldari : Heavy Shield Tanks. Eelectronic Warfare. Slow as ****
Gallente : Heavy Armor Tanks. Annoying as **** Sensor Damps. In your face short range DPS.
Amarr : Heavy Armor Tanks. Say Goodbye to your Cap. Lasers go Pew (effective weapon system for multiple ranges)
Minmatar: Both Shield and Armor Tanks / FIT THAT ASB NIQQAH /. Can basically volley your ass with Arties. Auto cannons with good damage, tracking and decent range.... Fast as ****,.

http://hugelolcdn.com/i/267520.gif
Danny John-Peter
Blue Canary
Watch This
#28 - 2014-03-21 08:55:41 UTC
Minmatar have there strengths still there is no doubt, however the previously famous kiting cruiser lineup suffers from Medium ACs being awful now, they have mediocre tracking, mediocre raw damage and awful damage application from range, until that gets sorted the kiting Minmatar ships of old will not be competitive.

If I was going to pick a race to train first these days I would do Amarr or Gallente.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#29 - 2014-03-21 15:08:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Bouh Revetoile
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
Minmatar is once again Eve on hard mode.
In fact, I think that can't be otherwise. That's the curse of "jack of all trades, master of none" or more explicitely "good at everything, best at nothing".

Winmatar were because in any situation the minmatar ship could exploit the weakness of its oponent, hence nothing could actually compete provided the minmatar pilot had half a brain.

And the fact that all winmatar defenders come to the following kind of arguments :
Lilith Velkor wrote:
In fact, they weren't even that great to begin with, but rather the direct competitors all used to have some distinct weaknesses that allowed the flexible slot layout combined with decent speed advantage tip the fight in your favor, given you knew how to exploit that weakness.
; is a proof that the power level was way over the top. If something is hard to do, only the best would manage to do it (that is pretty much the definition of hard) yet everyone seemed ok thinking they were all l33t pvper because they were successful in winmatar ships.

IMO, the most difficult thing for minmatar these days is that blasters (and gallente ships to some extent) have been overbuffed. neutron blasters + null is what makes AC feel bad right now, because they have similar performances at long short range whereas blasters have a lot more power at very close range. I'd say the powergrid buff neutron blasters received should be reverted.

Yet AC still have a lot of advantages : capless and selectable damage is great, but they also have the best tracking and they project their dps as far or even farther than pulse laser, yet with a lot less punch of course, but still you will reach your target at hilarious ranges. This versatility means their ships (combined with utility high) should often be the best to engage uper sized targets, and the best to engage smaller sized targets. The downside is that they sometimes are a bit less powerfull than same size target, but you can't have everything.

Neut+AC on a cruiser is the bane of almost any frigate ; nos + double prop will allow a cruiser to engage almost any BS

And of course artilleries. They have fallen out of favor recently, yet their power is still the same as before. IMO they are fine, blaping things exactly just like they should. Yet the successive missile buffs are starting to encroach upon their role, but minmatar can now use them too anyway.
Lilith Velkor
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#30 - 2014-03-21 16:14:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Lilith Velkor
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
Minmatar is once again Eve on hard mode.
In fact, I think that can't be otherwise. That's the curse of "jack of all trades, master of none" or more explicitely "good at everything, best at nothing".

Winmatar were because in any situation the minmatar ship could exploit the weakness of its oponent, hence nothing could actually compete provided the minmatar pilot had half a brain.


No, minmatar were extremely popular because they did offer adequate performance paired with speed.

You can argue back and forth about what ship was best in which hypothetical scenario, but considering durability and damage projection, both Harbinger and Drake were superior to the Hurricane.

What really made the Hurricane the superior choice in general was the fact that it had very good mobility. Players naturally gravitated towards it, given that dealing half the damage of a Harbinger at range is still a lot more than nothing (i.e. the damage a Harbinger deals after it gets killed because it didnt align fast enough), and it allows them to chase down people that dont want to fight better (because you have 3 times their numbers).


Bouh Revetoile wrote:

And the fact that all winmatar defenders come to the following kind of arguments :
Lilith Velkor wrote:
In fact, they weren't even that great to begin with, but rather the direct competitors all used to have some distinct weaknesses that allowed the flexible slot layout combined with decent speed advantage tip the fight in your favor, given you knew how to exploit that weakness.
; is a proof that the power level was way over the top. If something is hard to do, only the best would manage to do it (that is pretty much the definition of hard) yet everyone seemed ok thinking they were all l33t pvper because they were successful in winmatar ships.


Well, that kinda is the whole point of their racial trait. They dont do anything really great, but use speed and maneuverability to exploit the one thing their enemy is really bad at. You might not like it as it does, as a necessity, bring with it the ability to pick what to fight in your class and what not, but from a balance perspective it is a necessity.

What people refer to when they say "hard to fly" is the fact that the playstyle is very unforgiving, usually a single mistake means you lost without possibility to recover.

There will always be people thinking they are l33t pvpers because they just invested 3bill in a frigate, have a t3 booster always at their side, or simply pick only fights they know they will win. Has nothing to do with the race, all players do this.

Bouh Revetoile wrote:

IMO, the most difficult thing for minmatar these days is that blasters (and gallente ships to some extent) have been overbuffed. neutron blasters + null is what makes AC feel bad right now, because they have similar performances at long short range whereas blasters have a lot more power at very close range. I'd say the powergrid buff neutron blasters received should be reverted.


I agree that gallente overbuff is one of the major issues for minmatar, but personally I'd say blasters are fine the way they are now. I rather see the problem with gallente being a tad too fast and agile.

Autos are in fact only 2nd best tracking, after blasters, but that is not an issue as you'll not go up close against a blaster boat anyway.

Tiericide devalued the utiltiy neut slots quite a bit though, I'd even go as far as saying that a lot of the current issues could simply be band-aided by just converting 1 nos/neut slot to another turret. But then it would not be minmatar anymore but a slightly different flavour of gallente.
BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#31 - 2014-03-21 21:44:25 UTC
Hey, weed guy, can I have some of whatever plant you're smoking today? 8/10 Minmatar are awesome.

Founder of Violet Squadron, a small gang NPSI community! Mail me for more information.

BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie's Space Mediation Service!
Taoist Dragon
Okata Syndicate
#32 - 2014-03-21 21:57:37 UTC
I've only really got one more thing to add to this thread.



LONG LIVE THE RIFTER!!! LolCool

That is the Way, the Tao.

Balance is everything.
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