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CSM meets CCP Senior Producer Zulu about your concerns

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gargars
Willco Inc.
#241 - 2011-09-11 00:34:33 UTC  |  Edited by: gargars
Ein Spiegel wrote:
One thing, if you could mention it to them, and I would be appreciative.

After the cookie derp and the Incarna RAEG release, I thought maybe they decided not to publish any major changes or make any major changes just prior to the weekend. Y'know, on a Friday.

And here it is, the new forums went live at 10 after five... on a Friday. Is Screegs pulling overtime on the weekend just in case?

CCP may wonder why trust is such a hard sell to players. Could this be a reason?

Just sayin'. Making major changes ten minutes after typical "closing time" the day before a weekend might not be a great idea when you've made public statements that it wasn't going to happen again. (I guess it could have been worse... you could have done it before a long weekend for a major market share area.)


Lol glad I am not the only one who noticed this. Just last week I was reading how CCP realized rolling anything new out right before the weekend was stupid, especially after the last 'new forum roll out'.... and here we go again... even with the exact same item even if it was just the closure of the old forums. Shocked I am honestly starting to believe that the different areas at CCP don't communicate with each other.
Lelob
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#242 - 2011-09-11 00:54:52 UTC
Hey,

I'm going to make a thread telling you about how we're maybe-probably-somewhat doing something about EVE, or talking about maybe-probably-somewhat doing something about EVE, possibly even CCP doing something too. But we can't tell you what.

Why the hell do I even bother reading these threads if all you have to say is NDA up the keeshter?
Eladaris
Indefinite.
#243 - 2011-09-11 00:57:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Eladaris
London wrote:


I'm paying more attention to this part, why are you so focused on CQ?

"One of the main goals of the expansion is to enhance the smaller skirmishes in EVE, and make them a larger part of the game as opposed to the epic and massive wars the game has become known for. The team wants to incentivize skirmishes and give a role to the other lesser-used ships and give smaller groups of players more ways to feel important in the game. The first step will be to look at the game’s current caps, and they’re definitely going to be buffing Dreads, while nerfing the Super Carriers a bit. They’re going to also take long hard looks at frigates, cruisers, and other smaller ships to give them a more effective role in the overall scheme of things."

I long for ship and weapon balance, not CQ...


So you really liked that section. Did you keep reading?

"When I asked how they were then going to incentivize this behavior, the team didn’t have real specifics"

We already know about the Dreads / SCap stuff but if you're into the rest... "the team didn’t have real specifics"
London
Center for Advanced Studies
#244 - 2011-09-11 00:58:51 UTC
Eladaris wrote:
London wrote:


I'm paying more attention to this part, why are you so focused on CQ?

"One of the main goals of the expansion is to enhance the smaller skirmishes in EVE, and make them a larger part of the game as opposed to the epic and massive wars the game has become known for. The team wants to incentivize skirmishes and give a role to the other lesser-used ships and give smaller groups of players more ways to feel important in the game. The first step will be to look at the game’s current caps, and they’re definitely going to be buffing Dreads, while nerfing the Super Carriers a bit. They’re going to also take long hard looks at frigates, cruisers, and other smaller ships to give them a more effective role in the overall scheme of things."

I long for ship and weapon balance, not CQ...


So you really liked that section. Did you keep reading?

"When I asked how they were then going to incentivize this behavior, the team didn’t have real specifics"

We already know about the Dreads / SCap stuff but if you're into the rest... "the team didn’t have real specifics"



One can hope...
Salpun
Global Telstar Federation Offices
Masters of Flying Objects
#245 - 2011-09-11 01:06:28 UTC
London wrote:
Crexa wrote:
London wrote:
Dudes, this is what's happening for FiS this winter: MMORPG.com interview

It sounds like a really impressive laundry list of features and balances, everything this bitter Eve player could hope for. :P



You can't be serious. Yes I agree that what is mentioned in this article is good news, but an expansion it does not make.

Where is the meat? I see a lot of salad and gravy but no meat. 3 new CQs is something, but not meat, weve seen one, are you seriously going to be impressed longer than 2 minutes with each of the new ones? And an "establishment"? really? How about an open station to walk around in? The ability to interact with others? Huge view of space from inside the station like some of the dramatic images weve seen.

How about new regions? New ships? New modules? How about bringing back minefields to counter Supers, or new weapon systems for dreads to counter them? How about access finally to Jove space, they have been fricken building up to that forever.

So all I say is where is the MEAT?


I'm paying more attention to this part, why are you so focused on CQ?

"One of the main goals of the expansion is to enhance the smaller skirmishes in EVE, and make them a larger part of the game as opposed to the epic and massive wars the game has become known for. The team wants to incentivize skirmishes and give a role to the other lesser-used ships and give smaller groups of players more ways to feel important in the game. The first step will be to look at the game’s current caps, and they’re definitely going to be buffing Dreads, while nerfing the Super Carriers a bit. They’re going to also take long hard looks at frigates, cruisers, and other smaller ships to give them a more effective role in the overall scheme of things."

I long for ship and weapon balance, not CQ...



Part of the reason is that some of the new high sec smuggling mini profesion requires the CQ. The current Sisi build is graphics tweaks. When they have deployed what, they can develope further on a base they know that works.

Go team BFF

If i dont know something about EVE. I check https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/ISK_The_Guide

See you around the universe.
MailDeadDrop
Archon Industries
#246 - 2011-09-11 03:50:04 UTC
CCP Manifest wrote:
This is a very fair point. Thanks for bringing it up.
Posterior kiss accepted. P

CCP Manifest wrote:
I'd been talking to the CSM about something entirely unrelated a day or two before, but since I already knew what the content of yesterday's dialogue was going to be, I requested to be a part of the meeting as a fly on the wall. CCP Xhagen graciously accepted my request.
Now see, right here I have a problem. Was the list of attendees something held in abeyance by the NDA? (If so, that's a terrible interpretation.) Because up until your post the impression given was that most of the CSM delegates had a Skype conference with CCP Zulu. Granted it isn't a huge factual omission, but since the meeting's only significant facts are "where" (Skype), "when" (last Friday). and "who" (CSM and CCP Zulu), with "what" and "why" being apparently embargoed by NDA, one would think it would be fairly trivial to be reported correctly.

CCP Manifest wrote:
Obviously, since I am also under NDA as an employee (and since I'm part of the evil team of the one single guy in public relations that pursues press opportunities) I too cannot reveal the main bulk of the conversation.
Kidding aside Manifest, your dealings with CCPs public puts the rest of CCP to great shame. Speaking personally, it is your fault that I read the rest of CCP's PR attempts and go "WTF? Are these people baboons?" For your under-applauded efforts, I owe you all the banana daquiris you can stomache (when next we meet).

CCP Manifest wrote:
They are right in saying that nothing of detailed substance was said during the meeting--however there was apparently enough vague substance to convince them that the next meeting should be promising indeed. Convinced enough to decide to come to you guys and give a progress report, treading dangeous political waters.
And here is where I must turn the lash on the CSM. They should've kept their mouths shut until after the next meeting at a minimum. I fail to see any positive impact for the playerbase by their posting. As best as I can tell, all they've accomplished is to create a platform for their own unseemly self-aggrandizement. I expect better of them.

CCP Manifest wrote:
Hope that addresses some of the meta-comments here about the CSM's behavior/communications. Sorry about the delay in coming here. I had to sleep.
Ned, I don't begrudge you a second's sleep, and I apologize to you if my replies seem undeservedly harsh. But leaving aside the question of the wisdom of having this meeting on Friday afternoon (which was surely not your choice), does it seem unreasonable for CCP to anticipate that the CSM post would blossom into a little threadnaught, and that CCP would be well-served to have a prepared confirmatory post ready to go?

If you take away nothing else from my replies, please take away this: CCP has freely admitted that the largest single component in their recent Eve troubles has been poor communication. Are CCP such masochists that they will only admit the problem, but take no effective corrective action? I, and I believe others, desperately want CCP to do better.

MDD
KaarBaak
Squirrel Team
#247 - 2011-09-11 03:59:35 UTC
MailDeadDrop wrote:
As best as I can tell, all they've accomplished is to create a platform for their own unseemly self-aggrandizement.
That isn't their purpose?Straight
MailDeadDrop wrote:
I expect better of them.
Yeah....you should really stop doing that. You'll only end up disappointed.


Dum Spiro Spero
CCP Manifest
CCP Retirement Home
#248 - 2011-09-11 04:59:25 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Manifest
MailDeadDrop wrote:


CCP Manifest wrote:
I'd been talking to the CSM about something entirely unrelated a day or two before, but since I already knew what the content of yesterday's dialogue was going to be, I requested to be a part of the meeting as a fly on the wall. CCP Xhagen graciously accepted my request.
Now see, right here I have a problem. Was the list of attendees something held in abeyance by the NDA? (If so, that's a terrible interpretation.) Because up until your post the impression given was that most of the CSM delegates had a Skype conference with CCP Zulu. Granted it isn't a huge factual omission, but since the meeting's only significant facts are "where" (Skype), "when" (last Friday). and "who" (CSM and CCP Zulu), with "what" and "why" being apparently embargoed by NDA, one would think it would be fairly trivial to be reported correctly.

CCP Manifest wrote:
Obviously, since I am also under NDA as an employee (and since I'm part of the evil team of the one single guy in public relations that pursues press opportunities) I too cannot reveal the main bulk of the conversation.
Kidding aside Manifest, your dealings with CCPs public puts the rest of CCP to great shame. Speaking personally, it is your fault that I read the rest of CCP's PR attempts and go "WTF? Are these people baboons?" For your under-applauded efforts, I owe you all the banana daquiris you can stomache (when next we meet).

CCP Manifest wrote:
They are right in saying that nothing of detailed substance was said during the meeting--however there was apparently enough vague substance to convince them that the next meeting should be promising indeed. Convinced enough to decide to come to you guys and give a progress report, treading dangeous political waters.
And here is where I must turn the lash on the CSM. They should've kept their mouths shut until after the next meeting at a minimum. I fail to see any positive impact for the playerbase by their posting. As best as I can tell, all they've accomplished is to create a platform for their own unseemly self-aggrandizement. I expect better of them.

CCP Manifest wrote:
Hope that addresses some of the meta-comments here about the CSM's behavior/communications. Sorry about the delay in coming here. I had to sleep.
Ned, I don't begrudge you a second's sleep, and I apologize to you if my replies seem undeservedly harsh. But leaving aside the question of the wisdom of having this meeting on Friday afternoon (which was surely not your choice), does it seem unreasonable for CCP to anticipate that the CSM post would blossom into a little threadnaught, and that CCP would be well-served to have a prepared confirmatory post ready to go?

If you take away nothing else from my replies, please take away this: CCP has freely admitted that the largest single component in their recent Eve troubles has been poor communication. Are CCP such masochists that they will only admit the problem, but take no effective corrective action? I, and I believe others, desperately want CCP to do better.

MDD

======== o7 _CCP Manifest | Public Relations and Social Media | @ccp_manifest_
CCP Manifest
CCP Retirement Home
#249 - 2011-09-11 05:03:44 UTC
Apparently my TLDR joke actually Manifest'd itself. HARDY HAR HAR. The rest of my post:

MailDeadDrop wrote:
If you take away nothing else from my replies, please take away this: CCP has freely admitted that the largest single component in their recent Eve troubles has been poor communication. Are CCP such masochists that they will only admit the problem, but take no effective corrective action? I, and I believe others, desperately want CCP to do better.


I will definitely take away that from your replies. As I said before..."PR"/Communication isn't a monolithic thing within CCP, to be sure. Running everything through a filter... or through my filter... would be a horrifying homogeneous apocolypse. But yes, you are right, there is definitely room for improvement.

Most CCPers are indeed mascochists. Else why would we even develop EVE Online? HAVE YOU SEEN THE DEATH PENALTY ?!

======== o7 _CCP Manifest | Public Relations and Social Media | @ccp_manifest_
Elyssa MacLeod
Doomheim
#250 - 2011-09-11 05:23:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Elyssa MacLeod
MailDeadDrop wrote:
I expect better of them.



Ill probably keep reading but I stopped right there.
What exactly made you expect more of them based on their behavior up till now?

KaarBaak wrote:
MailDeadDrop wrote:
As best as I can tell, all they've accomplished is to create a platform for their own unseemly self-aggrandizement.
That isn't their purpose?Straight
MailDeadDrop wrote:
I expect better of them.
Yeah....you should really stop doing that. You'll only end up disappointed.




best post so far

GM Homonoia: Suicide ganks are a valid and viable tactic in EVE.

Where is your God now carebear?
cyllan anassan
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#251 - 2011-09-11 07:59:33 UTC
J Kunjeh wrote:
Azelor Delaria wrote:

You want to prove you're on our side, then tell CCP to f*** off on the NDA just once. If the entire CSM says, "You know what? The NDA is good, but transparency was promised, and you owe the players that much", what is CCP going to do? Fire you all? You don't work for them. Are they going to kick you off the CSM? If you truly want to help, then let your balls drop - all of you and put your money where your mouth is. All we see if pussyfooting around the subjects with vague insinuations and non-specific threads. It gets old.


You're totally clueless about the real world, obviously, so I'll help you out: NDA's have LEGAL standing and those who break them can be sued in court. So yeah, NONE of them are likely to break NDA and for damn good reason.

Fool...





let them, i want to see what happens if a player/s gets sued by the gaming company.


you think the player base is going to take it?
FadeIN Fr0St
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#252 - 2011-09-11 08:07:57 UTC
How about a little less cuddle talk and a little more action. All this crap throughing still has not brought us any substantial updates since Incursions. Just more of. "Oh ya we hear you, new stuff coming soon" Like always.

Is this a plan? While ccp and the csm wave there hands over there. Nothing gets done over here? Seems that way.

Incarna dose not count as content imo.

But thank you thank you thank you for the ship timer change. A step the the right direction:)

"All hail Wang ... the little fella in Command. When 'trouble' starts to spread, I'm sure he will rise to the occasion."

Azahni Vah'nos (Best reply ever)
Pod Amarr
Doomheim
#253 - 2011-09-11 09:20:02 UTC
Abrazzar wrote:
Two step wrote:
We all wish we could say more, but the rules are the rules.

Those rules clearly undermine your usefulness.


Like they ever been useful.

Looking at the server concurrent player count 2 things are visible long term numbers are going down.

No more breaking records in a long time. Problem is that the suits did not get the quarterly xls sheets yet.

As far as why we there are hundreds of pages about it waste of space to write them out again.

As long as CCP does not wake up is going to continue.

I am pretty sure all the people that have cancelled are receiving the ammount of spam from CCP as I do which is quite a lot to reactivate and a lot of people were on long term subs that still have to expire so the full numbers still did not come in.

So there is still couple thousands of account semi active like this one with people logging to train skills but not much else.






Trebor Daehdoow
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#254 - 2011-09-11 11:05:58 UTC
MailDeadDrop wrote:
And here is where I must turn the lash on the CSM. They should've kept their mouths shut until after the next meeting at a minimum. I fail to see any positive impact for the playerbase by their posting. As best as I can tell, all they've accomplished is to create a platform for their own unseemly self-aggrandizement. I expect better of them.

Alas, damned if we do, damned if we don't.

If we say nothing, we get yelled at for being useless do-nothing morons.

If we say what we feel comfortable saying (which is not much right now, alas), we get yelled at for being useless desperate attention whores.

If we say too much, we compromise our ability to advocate on behalf of the community, because CCP will tell us less.

Bottom line, my policy is always to do what I think is in the best interests of the community, regardless of the personal consequences, subject to the legal obligations I have placed myself under by signing the NDA.

I believe I am doing so now, as are the other members of the CSM. If it turns out that I'm wrong, then I'll happily take my lumps.

Private Citizen • CSM in recovery
Sofia Bellard
Doomheim
#255 - 2011-09-11 11:37:41 UTC
CCP and CSM,

I believe what we all are saying is; we have listened to many promises before and virtually all of them have been broken. Either by thing 'you' say will happen, blah, blah and they never do. Your words have now just turned into that, words only. Truly the only thing that we will respond to now is what you do and not what you say. That goes for both CCP and CSM.

Not trying to sound off a meme, but this is in fact correct. Your words literally mean nothing to us anymore. The trust is gone. Only what you do (as in what you put on TQ) will bring the trust back. No amount of trailers, dev blogs, news articles, threads or anything like that will make us believe in you again.

So how about it? As a way to help rebuild that trust, why are you waiting to deploy the change to logistics warp speed and the Dramiel change? Why isn't this change on SiSi right now? Again, we only believe what action you do now. Your words, mean nothing right now.

Poor sad little pirates,  why you so mad?
Vicar2008
MCMLXXVI
#256 - 2011-09-11 12:21:44 UTC
Trebor Daehdoow wrote:
MailDeadDrop wrote:
And here is where I must turn the lash on the CSM. They should've kept their mouths shut until after the next meeting at a minimum. I fail to see any positive impact for the playerbase by their posting. As best as I can tell, all they've accomplished is to create a platform for their own unseemly self-aggrandizement. I expect better of them.

Alas, damned if we do, damned if we don't.

If we say nothing, we get yelled at for being useless do-nothing morons.

If we say what we feel comfortable saying (which is not much right now, alas), we get yelled at for being useless desperate attention whores.

If we say too much, we compromise our ability to advocate on behalf of the community, because CCP will tell us less.

Bottom line, my policy is always to do what I think is in the best interests of the community, regardless of the personal consequences, subject to the legal obligations I have placed myself under by signing the NDA.

I believe I am doing so now, as are the other members of the CSM. If it turns out that I'm wrong, then I'll happily take my lumps.


Isnt this Politics 101 Trebor? As you soon as you get represented by the people, you are held accountable by the people. Thats just the way it works. Unfortunately for you and the rest of the CSM, you have to take the good with the bad, and us ulgly peeps Pirate
Azelor Delaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#257 - 2011-09-11 12:33:26 UTC
Trebor Daehdoow wrote:
Alas, damned if we do, damned if we don't.

If we say nothing, we get yelled at for being useless do-nothing morons.


No. If you "say nothing", people who give you a bit of credit assume you're doing what you were "elected" to do: represent us to CCP. For the most part, it's failtrolls trying to appear competent and important.

Admittedly, if you say nothing, there will always be people that think you're doing just that: nothing.

Quote:
If we say what we feel comfortable saying (which is not much right now, alas), we get yelled at for being useless desperate attention whores.


When you sit there and make a new thread "every day" (using a bit of exaggeration here) saying, "We talked with a developer about some stuff, but we can't tell you what that stuff we talked about is because of the NDA", yes, you look like attention whores. I would rather some type of specific information rather than vague generalities. Most of us would

Quote:
If we say too much, we compromise our ability to advocate on behalf of the community, because CCP will tell us less.


Then it's clear that CCP doesn't trust you, and you are nothing more than an attempt to keep subscriptions from dropping. How does it feel to be nothing but an unpaid poster child for CCP?

Quote:
Bottom line, my policy is always to do what I think is in the best interests of the community, regardless of the personal consequences, subject to the legal obligations I have placed myself under by signing the NDA.


With the general level of intelligence (or lack there-of) coming from you guys lately with regards to this, I'm wondering when you intend to start thinking.

Quote:
I believe I am doing so now, as are the other members of the CSM. If it turns out that I'm wrong, then I'll happily take my lumps.


No, you won't. You like the rest of the CSM will hide behind that NDA and say, "We couldn't tell you anything, it's all CCP's fault!" like the keyboard commandos you are.
Large Collidable Object
morons.
#258 - 2011-09-11 12:35:44 UTC
Trebor Daehdoow wrote:


[...] morons. [...]useless desperate attention whores.[...]




I qualify for both - can I be CSM chairman?
You know... [morons.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gjOx65yD5A)
Officer Spawn
Perkone
Caldari State
#259 - 2011-09-11 13:43:02 UTC
Since it's all NDA and we'll never know until after CCP and EVE are history we're all free to speculate. This is about resource allocation and there are three possibilities as I can think of:

-Arnar Says No ! He tells the CSM there will be no changes in CCP policy. This is kind of unlikely as the CSM is presenting this Skype talk like a Big Deal and even with all their love of trolling and attention prostitutionization they wouldn't have publicized the fact that they were told to take a hike.

-Arnar says Light At The End Of The Tunnel. "Other projects will soon enter a stage where less resources are required which will be allocated to EVE FiS". Of course nothing is certain and no firm dates are given and in a few months it may turn out that the other core projects got delayed and no extra resources are actually reassigned. This would be a typical CCP move, promise something in the future and make it seem like they are giving into CSM pressure.

-Arnar Surrender ! Release date on DUST and WoD are pushed back X months/years and resources are shifted to EVE. This would be a very valid use of the NDA as release dates are very important bits of information. But this would require some Icelandic alpha males to admit they were wrong which is extremely unlikely.
Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
#260 - 2011-09-11 13:47:49 UTC
NDA = Plausible Deniability.
The Mittani wrote:
It's all good. Not only am I incredibly arrogant, but my power-base in nullsec is quite happy with the work we've done thus far; a few random tinfoilers on these forums (as opposed to kugu, where most null folks hang out) is no big deal.

Your power-base is happy with just about anything, from dirty socks to banana peels .. isn't that what the whole Goon thing is about, going through life trolololol'ing? Big smile

On a related note:
MMORPG.com interview alluded to Tiericide being on the table for this Winter .. CSM/Dev care to comment?