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Warfare & Tactics

 
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Are Links Too Much?

Author
Omara Otawan
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#161 - 2014-03-19 15:17:42 UTC
I honestly think that the way links are currently implemented is just a terrible game mechanic. Yes, I'm using them too, even in very small gangs (3-4 frigates). Not in solo, but that is just because I'm too lazy to move two chars.


In my opinion, they need to be diversified, and moved into the fight. Some changes I'd like to see:

1) Link sizes

Small Skirmish Warfare Link
- can be fitted on command capable frigates
- boosts squad members in a 50km radius

Medium Skirmish Warfare Link
- can be fitted on command capable cruisers
- boosts wing squad/members in a 100km radius

Large Skirmish Warfare Link
- can be fitted on command capable battleships
- boosts fleet squad/wing/fleet members within a 150km radius

2) Skill restrictions

Squad command Lvl5
- allows to use Small Warfare Links

Wing command Lvl5
- allows to use Medium Warfare Links

3) Race and ship class restrictions

Jaguar (or entirely new t1/t2 command frigate line)
- can fit skirmish warfare links
- maximum one link without command processor
- bonus to link efficiency

Claymore
- can fit skirmish warfare links
- maximum two links without command processor
- bonus to link efficiency

Minmatar t2 Command Battleship
- can fit skirmish warfare links
- maximum three links
- bonus to link efficiency

4) Command Processors
- can only be fitted on t2 command frig/cruiser/bc/bs
- allows to fit up to 3 warfare links
Pew Terror
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#162 - 2014-03-19 15:48:07 UTC
Freako X wrote:
I think off-grid advocates are deluding themselves. It is harmful to the game. Can you think of a game that maintained an out of sight boosting class for pvp? Most games provided alternatives and then got rid of the OOS boosting. Just because you have an alt account, doesn't mean it is a reason for off-grid boosts. I have an alt account and guess what ... I don't off-grid boost.

It is better for the game long-term to have on-grid boosts. Makes fights more strategic.

Implants are on-grid ... Cool. It doesn't take two targets to get rid of the bonus. Just the one pilot.

Not to get off-topic, but if I were an eve developer I'd advocate for:

No Local Chat. Alternative is no local in low and null-sec.
Combine station chat (region or even just hubs)
Add a low sec buffer between empires.
Create a lower skill Destroyer command ship (Think Algos command dessie with 1 module).
Add diversity to the stealth bombers (cruise missiles and dedicated bomber).
Add a stealth bomber that targets capital ships (think Talos with citadel, torps or cruise, missiles).
No OFF-GRID Boosts



DAoC, SWG, Rift, EQ... Buffbots have a lot of tradition.
Zoe Fishpants
Don't Mind the Bunny
#163 - 2014-03-20 22:21:36 UTC
I don't care much about links one way or the other, although I definitely don't bother with people I know are boosted if I can avoid it.. I used to like visiting Smook, and I think I gave him and his corp some decent fights from time to time. Now that they've gone linky I don't bother. I don't mind dying horribly and do it quite often, but I do like to have a marginal chance.

Getting the booster on the km would pretty much solve the shriveled e-peen that comes from being welped by a boosted pilot. I doubt it will ever happen, but it would certainly go a long way towards killing any complaints I may have about links. My e-peen is precious and too much shriveling makes it difficult to care for.
IbanezLaney
The Church of Awesome
Shadow Cartel
#164 - 2014-03-20 23:17:31 UTC
Zoe Fishpants wrote:
I used to like visiting Smook, and I think I gave him and his corp some decent fights from time to time. Now that they've gone linky I don't bother.




Confirming that Smook is a bad person.
Aivo Dresden
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#165 - 2014-03-23 10:25:24 UTC
I don't know man; I spend 9 months training up leadership. That's almost 15mill SP. Of course I want to see the benefits of that. Not to mention that during all that time I've also had to pay for 2 accounts. Still paying for 2 now.

You could argue that it is P2W I suppose, but 2 accounts > 1 account. That's just the reality. If it's not boosts it's a Falcon alt, Neut alt, ...

That said, I would have no problem at all with boosters (and logi for that matter) to show up on the killmails. I don't even think I would mind if they forced boosters to actually be on grid. CS are pretty bulky though, if they force boosters to be on grid I would like a frigate / destroyer sized link ship.

My 2c.
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#166 - 2014-03-23 11:16:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Infinity Ziona
Aivo Dresden wrote:
I don't know man; I spend 9 months training up leadership. That's almost 15mill SP. Of course I want to see the benefits of that. Not to mention that during all that time I've also had to pay for 2 accounts. Still paying for 2 now.

You could argue that it is P2W I suppose, but 2 accounts > 1 account. That's just the reality. If it's not boosts it's a Falcon alt, Neut alt, ...

That said, I would have no problem at all with boosters (and logi for that matter) to show up on the killmails. I don't even think I would mind if they forced boosters to actually be on grid. CS are pretty bulky though, if they force boosters to be on grid I would like a frigate / destroyer sized link ship.

My 2c.

They're pretty ridiculous at tanking though. I can get a 1k dps nighthawk omni XL tank 100mn ab, 500 dps to 650 dps heavy assult fit and 1.5k m/s O/H at 23s align. Last for a good 19 minutes permarunning and boosting two T2 shield links..

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)

Aivo Dresden
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#167 - 2014-03-23 11:49:38 UTC
In a fast moving frig gang, they are a little slow though. Unless you like waiting on every gate for your CS to exit warp. Make boosting on grid, and add destroyer / frigate sized link ships. Sorted! :)
Jimmy Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#168 - 2014-03-23 18:33:59 UTC
As someone who garners a large amount of his pocket money from giving mining boosts in enaluri for isk (100m per hour for max boosts) I think links are fine as they are.


More importantly they more easily allow smaller groups to engage larger ones with some potential for success. You should consider them not as something that is OP PLS NERF but rather as a force multiplier. If you want to put a stop to all those "solo" pilots with links out the anoos then make them show on killmails.
Colt Blackhawk
Doomheim
#169 - 2014-03-25 10:55:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Colt Blackhawk
Well.
ONE REALLY IMPORTANT ARGUMENT.
Links make CCPs job to balance out ships hard if even impossible.
Why?
Okay lets say you want to Balance ship A. You have not only to take a look how it performs with standard point, tank, dps but also how it performs in fleet etc.
Now you need to balance same ship A for 0.0 and skip the point. Maybe it performs too good now.
And now you have to balance same ship again and again if it has links. There are whole corps flying already with ship fits that would be impossible to fly effectively without links.
This makes CCPs job almost impossible.
Example? Just take the condor. It is quite well balanced. You can always try to loop the kitey condor etc.
Now give it links and you have an overkilling machine. Same with interceptors. Awesome small speed with awesome small sig radius making whole weapon system like drones and light missiles useless.
Tripledamp hookbills? Usually hard to fly because of lack of speed etc. But with links a non issue.
Too many variables for CCPs employees to balance ships. Far too many.
Now all the crybabies who don´t know how to undock without 2 links for "solo" pvp you are welcome to flame me.
But you know I am right.

[09:04:53] Ashira Twilight > Plant the f****** amarr flag and s*** on their smoking wrecks.

Val'Dore
PlanetCorp InterStellar
#170 - 2014-03-25 12:14:40 UTC
Princess Nexxala wrote:
One question to the link haters, say I have HG snakes in my head...and get more speed out of that, is that game breaking as well? Or is that okay because it cost me 3b isk? Or because there is more risk involved? Just curious what everyone thinks.


Snakes were nerfed not terribly long ago as they provided over twice the boost they do now. What that tells the class is that CCP recognized the difference between advantaged and overpowered in regards to implant sets (the price of which should never justify effectiveness). And to reap the rewards of using those implants, you have to put them in harms way. Not so with links, there is no downside to using them until killboards can downscore you for using them, which is unlikely to happen.

Your comparison is garbage.

Star Jump Drive A new way to traverse the galaxy.

I invented Tiericide

Bloodmyst Ranwar
Leviathan Rising
Fortis Et Certus
#171 - 2014-03-25 23:01:55 UTC
Off Grid Boosts = No Risk of losing T3
Implants = Very Risky, a high chance of losing being podded.

Seems pretty black and white to me. No shades of grey. I would be happy with either of the 2 solutions:

1) Nerf off grid boosts hard. If someone wants to train up a off-grid booster for 1 - 2% increase in (x) stats, well then I'd be fine with that. If this was implemented, at least people would think twice about roaming around with these alts since they provide such a small stat increase. However, at least they would still give somewhat of a "home advantage."

2) Abolish off-grid boosts and force (x) ship to be on grid for boosts to apply.
Sion Barzhad
Wolves of Carthage
#172 - 2014-03-26 10:02:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Sion Barzhad
I feel like links in general should provide half of their boosts/benefits if they're off grid and provide full boosts when they're on grid

Another idea i wanted to add on was that CCP could even make it so Link ships could get an aggression timer when someone in fleets commits an act of aggression while links are up, kind of like how logi gets on. Let me know what you guys think of this.
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#173 - 2014-03-26 12:26:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Crosi Wesdo
Val'Dore wrote:
Princess Nexxala wrote:
One question to the link haters, say I have HG snakes in my head...and get more speed out of that, is that game breaking as well? Or is that okay because it cost me 3b isk? Or because there is more risk involved? Just curious what everyone thinks.


Snakes were nerfed not terribly long ago as they provided over twice the boost they do now. What that tells the class is that CCP recognized the difference between advantaged and overpowered in regards to implant sets (the price of which should never justify effectiveness). And to reap the rewards of using those implants, you have to put them in harms way. Not so with links, there is no downside to using them until killboards can downscore you for using them, which is unlikely to happen.

Your comparison is garbage.


I do get tired of people saying links are immune to danger. Just because you personally lack the skills or will to fit a counter ship to probe and quickly vaporise safed up link boats is really your problem. They are no longer hard to probe and some greedy boosting alts dont even overly boost their sensor strength anyway.

As for aggression, i think this is fair enough. Boosting from gates or stations might be discouraged, but any solution that puts a defenceless ship on grid, or takes ships out of space altogether is obviously undesirable.

The changes required to tech 3 hulls, subs, links and command processors to make them viable on grid would require a complete redesign.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#174 - 2014-03-26 14:51:37 UTC
The only counter to a linked ship is another linked ship. That's pretty much the definition of "overpowered". I don't understand how that can be argued.

Offgrid link boosting supporters are just pay2win adepts. It's not dedication, because you can dedicate you skill time to link, you won't have anything OP. What is OP is using a link ship offgrid with even less risk than an implanted pod and make your ship basicaly immune to anything but a blob or a linked ship (I'm not even sure a non linked blob can take on a good linked ship).

As to probing, this is the funniest joke here. To probe a linked ship, you need a dedicated prober (because of ECCM) and actively probe it down versus the linked ship who only need to stay aligned or near a station/pos for absolutely no danger. Really, losing a link ship to a prober is no more likely than losing a pod in a gate camp and the only reason people lose it is because they are dual boxing. That's not a counter.

And this :
Quote:
The changes required to tech 3 hulls, subs, links and command processors to make them viable on grid would require a complete redesign.
show that people don't even care to properly fit their ship, they only go for max link, which tells a lot about how exposed to danger they are.

As for the economy pseudo argument, dual account is not only used for linked ships. In fact, I tend to think link ship are most used in low sec by pseudo soloers, because there is plenty of other reasons for them otherwise : industry, transport, multi-toon pve, capital ships, scoot, ewar in fleet, spy, and whatever I forget. The economic aspect of removing offgrid boosting is close to inexistant and might largely be compensated by people staying because they know the only thing which will hurt them will be on grid and not millions of kilometers away.
Bad Messenger
Rehabilitation Clinic
#175 - 2014-03-26 16:34:11 UTC
Val'Dore wrote:
Princess Nexxala wrote:
One question to the link haters, say I have HG snakes in my head...and get more speed out of that, is that game breaking as well? Or is that okay because it cost me 3b isk? Or because there is more risk involved? Just curious what everyone thinks.


Snakes were nerfed not terribly long ago as they provided over twice the boost they do now. What that tells the class is that CCP recognized the difference between advantaged and overpowered in regards to implant sets (the price of which should never justify effectiveness). And to reap the rewards of using those implants, you have to put them in harms way. Not so with links, there is no downside to using them until killboards can downscore you for using them, which is unlikely to happen.

Your comparison is garbage.


So all you think about eve is killboards :(

makes me bit sad,

anyway there is lot of different thingies that can help you to get kills and those does not show up on mail at all, example remote repping and remote sensor/tracking boosting.
Bad Messenger
Rehabilitation Clinic
#176 - 2014-03-26 16:36:32 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
The only counter to a linked ship is another linked ship. That's pretty much the definition of "overpowered". I don't understand how that can be argued.

Offgrid link boosting supporters are just pay2win adepts. It's not dedication, because you can dedicate you skill time to link, you won't have anything OP. What is OP is using a link ship offgrid with even less risk than an implanted pod and make your ship basicaly immune to anything but a blob or a linked ship (I'm not even sure a non linked blob can take on a good linked ship).

As to probing, this is the funniest joke here. To probe a linked ship, you need a dedicated prober (because of ECCM) and actively probe it down versus the linked ship who only need to stay aligned or near a station/pos for absolutely no danger. Really, losing a link ship to a prober is no more likely than losing a pod in a gate camp and the only reason people lose it is because they are dual boxing. That's not a counter.

And this :
Quote:
The changes required to tech 3 hulls, subs, links and command processors to make them viable on grid would require a complete redesign.
show that people don't even care to properly fit their ship, they only go for max link, which tells a lot about how exposed to danger they are.

As for the economy pseudo argument, dual account is not only used for linked ships. In fact, I tend to think link ship are most used in low sec by pseudo soloers, because there is plenty of other reasons for them otherwise : industry, transport, multi-toon pve, capital ships, scoot, ewar in fleet, spy, and whatever I forget. The economic aspect of removing offgrid boosting is close to inexistant and might largely be compensated by people staying because they know the only thing which will hurt them will be on grid and not millions of kilometers away.


there is other counters than just another link ship, one of those is called covert ops with combat scanners.
Bad Messenger
Rehabilitation Clinic
#177 - 2014-03-26 16:38:07 UTC
Bloodmyst Ranwar wrote:
Off Grid Boosts = No Risk of losing T3
Implants = Very Risky, a high chance of losing being podded.

Seems pretty black and white to me. No shades of grey. I would be happy with either of the 2 solutions:

1) Nerf off grid boosts hard. If someone wants to train up a off-grid booster for 1 - 2% increase in (x) stats, well then I'd be fine with that. If this was implemented, at least people would think twice about roaming around with these alts since they provide such a small stat increase. However, at least they would still give somewhat of a "home advantage."

2) Abolish off-grid boosts and force (x) ship to be on grid for boosts to apply.


if people actually would do something and try to kill link alts those are as vulnerable than your pod.
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#178 - 2014-03-26 18:16:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Crosi Wesdo
Bad Messenger wrote:
Bloodmyst Ranwar wrote:
Off Grid Boosts = No Risk of losing T3
Implants = Very Risky, a high chance of losing being podded.

Seems pretty black and white to me. No shades of grey. I would be happy with either of the 2 solutions:

1) Nerf off grid boosts hard. If someone wants to train up a off-grid booster for 1 - 2% increase in (x) stats, well then I'd be fine with that. If this was implemented, at least people would think twice about roaming around with these alts since they provide such a small stat increase. However, at least they would still give somewhat of a "home advantage."

2) Abolish off-grid boosts and force (x) ship to be on grid for boosts to apply.


if people actually would do something and try to kill link alts those are as vulnerable than your pod.


Moreso. Ive lost one pod to santo, and 2 to disconnects using a terrible public wifi. I have never been tackled in my pod after losing my ship in combat. Literally never. i will quite hapilly fight dozens of interceptors in my maulus and have done on a number of occasions.

I have, however, had my booster probed out and ganked.

Did have a few close calls recently tho, one was a smartbombing corm which decloaked with logi that apparently does 2hp short of killing a full skilled pod and this run-in with santo which will be avoided in future.
X Gallentius
Black Eagle5
#179 - 2014-03-26 20:14:20 UTC
Boosters on kms! Save our e-peen!
Santo Trafficante
Kira Inc.
#180 - 2014-03-26 23:23:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Santo Trafficante
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
Bad Messenger wrote:
Bloodmyst Ranwar wrote:
Off Grid Boosts = No Risk of losing T3
Implants = Very Risky, a high chance of losing being podded.

Seems pretty black and white to me. No shades of grey. I would be happy with either of the 2 solutions:

1) Nerf off grid boosts hard. If someone wants to train up a off-grid booster for 1 - 2% increase in (x) stats, well then I'd be fine with that. If this was implemented, at least people would think twice about roaming around with these alts since they provide such a small stat increase. However, at least they would still give somewhat of a "home advantage."

2) Abolish off-grid boosts and force (x) ship to be on grid for boosts to apply.


if people actually would do something and try to kill link alts those are as vulnerable than your pod.


Moreso. Ive lost one pod to santo, and 2 to disconnects using a terrible public wifi. I have never been tackled in my pod after losing my ship in combat. Literally never. i will quite hapilly fight dozens of interceptors in my maulus and have done on a number of occasions.

I have, however, had my booster probed out and ganked.

Did have a few close calls recently tho, one was a smartbombing corm which decloaked with logi that apparently does 2hp short of killing a full skilled pod and this run-in with santo which will be avoided in future.


'' will be avoided in future''