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Solo PVP among larger class ships?

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baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#161 - 2014-03-19 13:48:18 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Infinity Ziona wrote:

ummmm. if anything a piloted ship will have smaller sig then an unpiloted one Baltec.


Sig on an unfitted caracal is 125.

Fit a tank to it and you get 188

Turn on its MWD and it balloons to 1.09k


It gets worse if someone target paints it. Your numbers are not realistic and do not comply with what happens in game, you have made the mistake of relying on EFT and not doing things in game.
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#162 - 2014-03-19 13:54:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Remiel Pollard
Infinity Ziona wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Riot Girl wrote:
What should the meta for BSes look like Infinity Ziona?

Much like it does now. Battleships are weak in lots of areas against smaller ships, significantly in terms of application of damage and mobility.

Battleships should be given an increased ability to force an engagement, which would mean a significant boost to scan resolution, 150 to 200mm. This along with a sebo with scan res script would allow them to force engagements on battle-cruisers and most cruisers.





But they can already get plenty of engagements with cruisers. Locking times are not what you have put down.

Except the math and the game says they are. Sorry but its not something that can be argued with.

The difference between you and I is I have flown battleships solo since 2003 and, you haven't.


And yet, it doesn't take anywhere near ten years to figure out battleships. Which is why it's pretty clear you haven't been playing that long. Also, your KB suggests you haven't really got that much PVP experience, so if we're arguing "I know more than you because experience", almost everyone here beats you hands down in that regard, regardless of how long any of us have been playing.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Medalyn Isis
Doomheim
#163 - 2014-03-19 13:56:01 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:

ummmm. if anything a piloted ship will have smaller sig then an unpiloted one Baltec.


Sig on an unfitted caracal is 125.

Fit a tank to it and you get 188

Turn on its MWD and it balloons to 1.09k


It gets worse if someone target paints it. Your numbers are not realistic and do not comply with what happens in game, you have made the mistake of relying on EFT and not doing things in game.

You just took a cruiser with perhaps the largest potential signature as an example though. This is more of an edge case. For example most Minmatar cruisers will have a signature of 100 or below.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#164 - 2014-03-19 13:58:45 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Medalyn Isis wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:

ummmm. if anything a piloted ship will have smaller sig then an unpiloted one Baltec.


Sig on an unfitted caracal is 125.

Fit a tank to it and you get 188

Turn on its MWD and it balloons to 1.09k


It gets worse if someone target paints it. Your numbers are not realistic and do not comply with what happens in game, you have made the mistake of relying on EFT and not doing things in game.

You just took a cruiser with perhaps the largest potential signature as an example though. This is more of an edge case. For example most Minmatar cruisers will have a signature of 100 or below.


Now turn on its MWD.

Even the Stabber gets 160 with the tank and 927 if its running its MWD which it most likely will.
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#165 - 2014-03-19 13:59:20 UTC
Medalyn Isis wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:

ummmm. if anything a piloted ship will have smaller sig then an unpiloted one Baltec.


Sig on an unfitted caracal is 125.

Fit a tank to it and you get 188

Turn on its MWD and it balloons to 1.09k


It gets worse if someone target paints it. Your numbers are not realistic and do not comply with what happens in game, you have made the mistake of relying on EFT and not doing things in game.

You just took a cruiser with perhaps the largest potential signature as an example though. This is more of an edge case. For example most Minmatar cruisers will have a signature of 100 or below.


It was IZ's example to begin with, Baltec is just using the same one.

And looking at the Rupture in game right now, it's base sig is 125 so..... don't know where you're getting your info from.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#166 - 2014-03-19 13:59:47 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:

ummmm. if anything a piloted ship will have smaller sig then an unpiloted one Baltec.


Sig on an unfitted caracal is 125.

Fit a tank to it and you get 188

Turn on its MWD and it balloons to 1.09k


It gets worse if someone target paints it. Your numbers are not realistic and do not comply with what happens in game, you have made the mistake of relying on EFT and not doing things in game.

Baltec at a sig of 188 with a scan resolution of 106mm you're not locking it at all before it warps out so it doesn't matter at all whether its shield fit.

To warp away from combat you don't turn on your micro warp drive when you're facing a battleship.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#167 - 2014-03-19 14:02:32 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:

ummmm. if anything a piloted ship will have smaller sig then an unpiloted one Baltec.


Sig on an unfitted caracal is 125.

Fit a tank to it and you get 188

Turn on its MWD and it balloons to 1.09k


It gets worse if someone target paints it. Your numbers are not realistic and do not comply with what happens in game, you have made the mistake of relying on EFT and not doing things in game.

Baltec at a sig of 188 with a scan resolution of 106mm you're not locking it at all before it warps out so it doesn't matter at all whether its shield fit.

To warp away from combat you don't turn on your micro warp drive when you're facing a battleship.


So what? Stop chasing cruisers in your battleship and start going after stuff your own size. HTFU.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Medalyn Isis
Doomheim
#168 - 2014-03-19 14:04:15 UTC
Remiel Pollard wrote:
And looking at the Rupture in game right now, it's base sig is 125 so..... don't know where you're getting your info from.

Stabber
Scythe
Scythe FI
Stabber FI

Are all 100 or below.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#169 - 2014-03-19 14:04:51 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:

Baltec at a sig of 188 with a scan resolution of 106mm you're not locking it at all before it warps out so it doesn't matter at all whether its shield fit.

To warp away from combat you don't turn on your micro warp drive when you're facing a battleship.


What makes you think it would warp away?
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#170 - 2014-03-19 14:07:24 UTC
Medalyn Isis wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:
And looking at the Rupture in game right now, it's base sig is 125 so..... don't know where you're getting your info from.

Stabber
Scythe
Scythe FI
Stabber FI

Are all 100 or below.


The word was "most Minmatar Cruisers". If you're backing up Infinity, then Faction Cruisers don't count as cruisers.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#171 - 2014-03-19 14:12:23 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:

Baltec at a sig of 188 with a scan resolution of 106mm you're not locking it at all before it warps out so it doesn't matter at all whether its shield fit.

To warp away from combat you don't turn on your micro warp drive when you're facing a battleship.


What makes you think it would warp away?

Yes good idea lets get back to the topic.

My initial statement was that battleships were not effective soloers because they cannot force an engagement in PvP. Since we now after 5 pages of arguments have established that that is correct (unless they turn on their microwarpdrive at which point they would likely be engaging you) we then move onto my other statements.

1. Battleships due to their inability to engage smaller targets usually only get consensual pvp. Given EVE's playerbase that usually means the battleship is getting ganked since people rarely engage unless they're sure of a victory.

2. Battleships would benefit from increased scan resolution, so that they don't only have to engage in consensual pvp. Its a non-consensual pvp game after all.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#172 - 2014-03-19 14:14:22 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:

Baltec at a sig of 188 with a scan resolution of 106mm you're not locking it at all before it warps out so it doesn't matter at all whether its shield fit.

To warp away from combat you don't turn on your micro warp drive when you're facing a battleship.


What makes you think it would warp away?

Yes good idea lets get back to the topic.

My initial statement was that battleships were not effective soloers because they cannot force an engagement in PvP. Since we now after 5 pages of arguments have established that that is correct (unless they turn on their microwarpdrive at which point they would likely be engaging you) we then move onto my other statements.

1. Battleships due to their inability to engage smaller targets usually only get consensual pvp. Given EVE's playerbase that usually means the battleship is getting ganked since people rarely engage unless they're sure of a victory.

2. Battleships would benefit from increased scan resolution, so that they don't only have to engage in consensual pvp. Its a non-consensual pvp game after all.



But they do just fine, you just saw a battleship take on a 40 man gang. They do not need faster locking timers just because you want to catch frigates with them.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#173 - 2014-03-19 14:14:49 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:

The golem is not a battleship. Its a marauder. The difference between Golem and Raven is about the same as the difference between Proteus and Thorax.

[…]

In the same way that T3's are not cruisers, they're strategic cruisers.
…and yet you include all those non-cruisers in your attempt to show that battleships are worse than cruisers.

Could you please make up your mind?
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#174 - 2014-03-19 14:16:07 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:

The golem is not a battleship. Its a marauder. The difference between Golem and Raven is about the same as the difference between Proteus and Thorax.

[…]

In the same way that T3's are not cruisers, they're strategic cruisers.
…and yet you include all those non-cruisers in your attempt to show that battleships are worse than cruisers.

Could you please make up your mind?


If he did that, he wouldn't be able to engage in intellectually dishonest doublethink, now would he? Silly Tippia.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Prince Kobol
#175 - 2014-03-19 14:18:05 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Prince Kobol wrote:
Medalyn Isis wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
A fool of myself?

When it comes to a test of battleship knowledge between Infinity and some random 2012 FW fweddit scrub, I think most people will listen to Infinity. (except for obvious goonswarm proponents with an axe to grind)

The fact that you ask if he has even played the game is amusing in the highest and makes you look a complete fool. I suggest you stick to FW.


No, what I will do is compare what Infinity says to what Baltec1 says and even thou I am in NC, I will take Baltec1 view every time and twice on a Sunday.

Hell I would take Baltec1 views when it comes to Battleships and their capabilities over nearly everybody else's in Eve


Yep. I will without doubt let any experience I have on my own be gainsaid by the Master of the Megathron. He is very literally the subject matter expert.


Yes because Baltec has only ever flown one ship in his entire Eve Life....

Fact is, Baltec, as well as many others who have played this game for years, who have participated in some of the biggest PvP battles Ever, in who help devises Fleet Concepts do not rely solely on out of game fitting tools to try and win an argument, but on their wealth of in game experience and hundreds of man hours actually in being involved PvP fights in all various ships and different situations.
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#176 - 2014-03-19 14:32:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Infinity Ziona
baltec1 wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:

Baltec at a sig of 188 with a scan resolution of 106mm you're not locking it at all before it warps out so it doesn't matter at all whether its shield fit.

To warp away from combat you don't turn on your micro warp drive when you're facing a battleship.


What makes you think it would warp away?

Yes good idea lets get back to the topic.

My initial statement was that battleships were not effective soloers because they cannot force an engagement in PvP. Since we now after 5 pages of arguments have established that that is correct (unless they turn on their microwarpdrive at which point they would likely be engaging you) we then move onto my other statements.

1. Battleships due to their inability to engage smaller targets usually only get consensual pvp. Given EVE's playerbase that usually means the battleship is getting ganked since people rarely engage unless they're sure of a victory.

2. Battleships would benefit from increased scan resolution, so that they don't only have to engage in consensual pvp. Its a non-consensual pvp game after all.



But they do just fine, you just saw a battleship take on a 40 man gang. They do not need faster locking timers just because you want to catch frigates with them.

Except they don't do just fine. I just saw a Marauder, which has a bastion module, is immune to all Ewar and fought a bunch of idiots take on a bunch of idiots.

I'd love to see someone take on a 40 man gang in a Raven :)

Edit: Oh yeah it also has bonuses to help it hit small ships and can be fitted to tank 100k dps.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#177 - 2014-03-19 14:32:50 UTC
Prince Kobol wrote:


Yes because Baltec has only ever flown one ship in his entire Eve Life....

Fact is, Baltec, as well as many others who have played this game for years, who have participated in some of the biggest PvP battles Ever, in who help devises Fleet Concepts do not rely solely on out of game fitting tools to try and win an argument, but on their wealth of in game experience and hundreds of man hours actually in being involved PvP fights in all various ships and different situations.


I keep on saying it, EFT is only good for working out if something will fit and a very rough idea on how it will work. Personally I use Pyfa simply for the rough isk cost it has. Anything else you get through actually using it in game.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#178 - 2014-03-19 14:34:44 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Infinity Ziona wrote:


I'd love to see someone take on a 40 man gang in a Raven :)



You saw a raven hull do it.

A raven will happily take on 2-3 guys in cruisers just fine. I had a fight the other week vs two caracals that would have gone down much easier if I had rapid heavies rather than rapid lights or even torps.
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#179 - 2014-03-19 14:49:26 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:


I'd love to see someone take on a 40 man gang in a Raven :)



You saw a raven hull do it.

A raven will happily take on 2-3 guys in cruisers just fine. I had a fight the other week vs two caracals that would have gone down much easier if I had rapid heavies rather than rapid lights or even torps.

A marauder with a bastion module, immune to EW and with bonuses to torp range and painters. Completely different from a Raven.

Any competent cruiser will destroy a Raven with torps.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#180 - 2014-03-19 15:07:29 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:

A marauder with a bastion module, immune to EW and with bonuses to torp range and painters. Completely different from a Raven.

Any competent cruiser will destroy a Raven with torps.


Any competent raven would be able to kill a cruiser. You dont need E-war immunity to have fun with a BS and the firepower a raven can put out is more than enough to deal with a cruiser even with torps.