Wormholes

I rather suggest :
C6: 5bil/1.35bil <-may fixes "homebase advantage"?
C5: 4bil/1.35bil<- ^this
C4: 3.5bil/1.35bil <- give it a limit to only allow 2 capital passes, maybe hardcoded ?
C3 2.5bil/ 1.35bil
C2 2bil/ 1.35bil
C1 1bil/65mio

Why no caps in C1 ? We have to keep in mind here, that C1 space is mostly used for PI, Reactionposses etc and the inhibitants like the way those C1s are, if we going to balance or rework W-Space, we have to keep those Industrials in mind and shouldn't fully focus on the needs of c5&c6 only ;)

I am living in a C2 C2/ LS and definetly like the Idea of may use a single cap + a smaller force of T3, for example adding Triage based T3 Fleets limited to ~ 10 T3 to make sure you can get the fleet back home too, on the other hand a single Orca can easy add huge trouble for extraction, if the hostiles know how to use it.
I would disagree with any reduce of mass on lower class wormholes, 2bil totalmass is very balanced in terms of possible Ships/Setups/Numbers and shouldn't be touched at all.

Now the the biggest issue in lowclasses: ISK from PvE content, simple explained, c2 sites are not worth it, c1 sites outperform even c3 sites if you get lucky with ribbons, c3 & c4 sites are relatively balanced, mentioning here that you can reach 300mil/hour with c4/c4 farming if you triplebox 3 Battleships.

My suggestion: add a Single escalationwave to EVERY class of wormholes, it would bump even lower class sites to worthy payouts and adds the risk of triaged/sieged caps, PI in wspace is fane as it is and doesn't need any rebalance, btw talking about PI, would CCP add some more planets to our C2 please ? :)

If you want to fix the gap between c1-3 (c4) and c5/6, you must keep in mind that a c2 corp rarely can fight a c5/6 corp, giving an example of my corp beeing relatively small, we can't face any t3 fleet with more than 15 People without taking a full loss of our own fleet, we are still goign for those fight from time to time, if our Reimbursementwallet does effort it, solution is simple, more money for us allows us to welp fleets more often into those c5/c6 Fleets, that's what you want, right ? ;)

The problem those c5/c6 guys face is, C1-4 bears are too scared in 90% of cases, even we need to bait or chaincollapse for hours to find any opponents who aint running away as soon as our bait enters their system, fearing a 20+ T3 fleet beeing ready to jump on their head ( which isn't the case)

Our experience most likely is, from our view of things:

- C2 sites aint worth it, we don't even bother doing our own
- Dualstatics are awesome, it also adds tactical stuff ( example : why use entry 1 when you can jump in their back from entry 2 ?)
- While c1-4 corps match our size and we have a lot of fun with dogfights IF they are willing to engage, c5/c6 corps usually means a welp of our small flett into (in average) a 3+:1 stronger force
- C5/C6 escalations are fine, speaking here from my own experience in C5 space, however i would like to see a fix of mechanics -> no farming of escalations for 3-4 days, instead increase the spawnrate a bit (you all can hate me for that^^)
- farming C4's via statics leading to them is worth it, their reward vs risk is very balanced
- c3 solo is less worth than incursioning but still fine if done in a decent ship, becomes less profitable in groups due to the decreasing price of ribbons
- c1 sites are balanced, however they outperform c2 sites and in some wormholes (e.g. magnetar) even c3, done in frigs, no risk at all
- Most people in c1-4 refuse to fight even when they scout our entire force and us beeing 2:1 outnumbered
- c5/c6 "allways" go for it, i like that, but overkill doesn't mean much fun for us ;)
- Blackhole sucks, nuff said
- smartbombing not beeing allowed close to the wormhole is a great and also tricky thing, on the one hand you counter hostile smartbombs if you stay close, on the other hand you give up the ability of keeping your hostiles out of jumprange, this mechanic may stay as it is, but removing drones with smartbombs usually is very difficult in dogfights at 0 on wh
- T3 needs balance, i bet everybody does agree on this, they shouldn't be nerfed too hard, but some kind of rebalance is nessescary (maybe when doing this, also change the penatly from skillpoints to something else ?)
- Dymanic wormholes are fine, but i like to see some more 00 accesses spread around for lower classes
- Totalmass allowed from c5/c6 to lower classes is fine and should stay as it is, but i would like to see a small totalmass buff for c5->c2 and other 1 bil mass holes connecting any c2-c4 to c5/c6
- High sec wormhole battles are boring and kills only happen if your hostiles are too stupid to click jump or if you have 90% webs on a offbumped target making sure it can't go back and the pilot was too busy noticing his distance to the wormhole before its too late
- ore sites should be scansites again, having them allready available when entering a wormhole system makes it too easy for us hunters to track down our prey
As i said earlier this is my point of view from ~ 3 years wormhole experience.

regards
rc

I'll 2nd this one. Long, long ago we had a bunch of folks jump into our hole from k-space in mining barges and stuff, we successfully baited them into the hole by running a hauler around from planet to planet making it look like 1 guy was doing PI, causing them to think it was safe to go mine, then we smeared them all over space. We then started chatting them up, and eventually they became a part of our family, and are now some of the most blood-thirsty folks in our alliance.

We've found Industrialists are just PVP-capable people waiting to get a sniff/taste. :)

It's about closing the ISK gap between lower and higher class wormholes. By closing this gap you increase the likelihood that lower class dwellers will engage higher class dwellers in PVP. I agree that if you put more ISK on the line that you should receive a bigger reward, and I agree that the risk vs reward of escalations is balanced. But that balance is irrelevant if we're trying to revitalize wspace as a whole.

The problem is essentially boredom. Because of escalations (arguably), C5/6 dwellers have the isk to pvp, and more importantly, the time to dedicate themselves to pvp. The same is not true of lower class wormholes. We spend more time trying to bring in comparatively less isk, and that means the loss of ships will impact our gameplay more than that of higher dwellers (i.e. we'll spend even more time grinding). So, we have to pick our fights, which exacerbates the boredom of higher dwellers. Or we field less expensive ships which, in turn, creates an even more one sided battle which, in turn, further exacerbates the boredom of higher dwellers. It's a downward spiral, and it's one that needs fixing.

Any suggested mechanic that tries to increase interaction without addressing the isk/time issue will result in even fewer fights and more POS'ing up than we already see right now. Without addressing the income disparity between higher and lower class wormholes, the following two ideas will not work:
--Allowing capital jumps into lower class wormholes.
--At least two statics for each wormhole system (or any suggestion that increases the likelihood of wspace dwellers running into each other).

If we push for an increase in the income potential of lower class wormholes, it must be proportional to that of higher class wormholes, otherwise it won't fix the isk/time issue. This means every class of wormhole should have the same number of escalations. The question then becomes: are we fixing the isk/time issue or are we merely shifting it to another part of Eve (i.e. between wspace and kspace)? In other words, will a gap start to form between kspace and wspace dwellers such that smaller groups will be intimidated away from trying out wspace?

I believe getting rid of C5/6 escalations is the safer and more predictable path in terms of balance.

To be frank, removing escalations would result in C5/6 dwellers either spending more time grinding or fielding less optimal fleet comps, which (I assume) is not what most of those groups want to do. But... that is part of the game we subscribe to.

Excellent post. :)

Back when my corp was in a C2, it certainly wasn't quiet; those holes get a lot of traffic. However, when you are a newer corp in a highly trafficed surface hole like a C2/C3/HS, you learn to be really cagey about what fights you take and when you just try to duck and go unnoticed.

We had brawls with people that brought battleships and BC swarms, we had fights where we were up against twice as many pilots in T3's v our own battle cruisers... Bob is not kind to C2 corps who do not learn early to guard their system and control their holes.

Now that we're one of the C5 corps and can afford to field a larger fleet of more expensive ships, people in C2's and C3's get worried about us. I was watching a direct low sec hole the other day for some of the guys to get back, and a scout jumped into our C5; they scampered off before I could get in close, and I opened a convo to chat about CSM stuff. They told me their CEO had ordered them out of the hole ASAP - "scary PvP people live in C5's and C6's." ^^



Indeed! I know Proc is a high-grade weapons dealer when he's not running all of w-space, and I myself get quite a kick out of optimizing production chains, getting the maximum output from arrays, and turning things into other things plus isk, but I'd drop my umpteenth production reconfiguration project to go down a chain and pew pew people any time the opportunity comes up. :) The danger and the explosions are part of w-space.

Well frankly I don't know about the total masses, It can be increased for C2's if that's the issue, I dunno. The main point I was trying to make is that the jump mass limitations should increased to allow for all ships to move in all wormholes with the exception of supers and titans.

because wh's are risk free and ratting with dreads in c1 for maximum efficiency

If payouts getting buffed ? actually no, you can effort them

If we assume each C3 site (as a point of reference) drops 45mil in loot (30mil in blue and 15, Bob willing, in nanos) then we can afford to buy a T1 fit Archon after running approximately 33 sites. A meta and T2 rigged Archon would require twice as many sites.

--Can we afford to buy them? Yes.
--Can we afford to lose them? I suppose, but after the first couple went down I'd need a reason beyond PVP to continue replacing cap losses.
--Can we afford to lose them to a C5/6 Archon support gang that (a) can replace their capital after running 2 escalations and (b) as proposed, are now venturing into lower class wormholes? No.

you should keep in mind that PI is giving nice money too and will make it possible to welp a capital once every 2 weeks on its own
so as I said, it is possible, is it a viable option to welp it ? nope, but you can if nessescary

As some others stated earlier, you have to pick your fights/opponents and can't welp fleets frequently, but you can run cheaper fleetsetups to allow welping more often for fun ;)

*Ninjaedit*
Don't forget, some C2 corps got more than enough dreads to handle a single carrier, just saying ;)

1 Week of incursioning :/

*another ninjaedit*
Why we choose 1 week of incursioning ? Because if you say 1 dread is 4.5bil isk and you want at least 3-5 of them thats like 25-30 bil isk you have to invest
Now looking at possible money earned in c2 : best c2 site is a data site with in average 40 mil payout, othrs are below 20mil in average (no ribbonluck :/ )
to support a dreadgroup you need at least 2 carrirs, ~ 3b each -> bumps you to 35bil totalcosts, PI payout for us with 15 characters doing it is ~ 700mil/week in average , i think everybody can make his own calculations now and would agree : incursions are the best or at last one of the best solutions as preperation to move into wspace for a corp, because you will need at least 6 months to earn this amount of money in a c2 on it's own ;)