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Core gameplay changes that would radically reshape the game for the better

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Surge Roth
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#41 - 2011-11-29 05:04:46 UTC
Going to go on a small rant here.

High sec is generally fine. Anyone who cares to actually make any real isk takes the risk and "ninja" plex in other people's systems/whs. I know I do.
Also, your comparison of EVE's pve to Wow's pve isn't a good one at all. There was never any risk in WoW pve. The only thing that could kill you was your own stupidity, and the same applies in eve. Before anyone starts, raiding doesn't count as being "risky" as you lose nothing but 2 minutes of your time when you die and every damned instance in that game is mind numbingly easy (let's be honest here, all PVE content in MMOs are mind numbingly easy).
And if a comparison must be made, Incursions is to Wow's raiding system. Shoot, it's better. There's no lame ass limit to your group, anyone can enter and go while you're completing the sites, and people can even gank you. You can't even ninja loot in Wow anymore.

Drone's drops are fine as is. I honestly don't see why people ***** about it so much. They have no bounties and no real loot. Never mind the fact quite a few mission runners will skip anything with drones in em.
Even if CCP were to remove the drops from drones prices would generally stay the same. Afterall, everyone and their mother has a hulk and almost everyone contributes to it. Simply put, this is 2011 and eve has more people contributing to the pool. This isn't 2005 where there was only 250 people online at a given time.
Basically, your proposed changes to help out the market and minerals in general wouldn't accomplish much, IMO.

I'd love local to work how wh local works. It's kind of lame an instant messenger is one of the best tools for gathering intel atm.

tldr:
1. Do it WH style
2:Yes
3,4,5,6,7: No
Sanguine Belroth
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#42 - 2011-11-29 06:48:31 UTC
I can endorse delayed local. Even no local. On one condition
A proximity alert on your scanner.

It is pretty ******** to have to sit there spamming the scan button - when in wormholes and in low sec, when some pirates enter system and you are finishing a plex.

I like playing eve - the scanner spam, is quite foolish. If something comes on scan, you should be alerted. Its kind of the first thing you might incorporate into a spaceship if you built it.

You will note that most eve players are incredibly risk adverse. This is understandable, as they don't want to loose their shiny toys and grind for hours to buy them again. I don't think "no local" would improve pvp, it would make people flightier than normal. Although it would screw up the bot ratting. Which would be nice.

Here is me thinking aloud:
Maybe make one ship type immune to local.
- Local exists because gates log who enters and exits. Make it if you cyno into a system, or clone jump in. You are not logged in local until you activate a gate. You are now back on the network, and the world knows where you are.

This way you can skulk about in Black Ops, like you were supposed to be able to, by cyno'ing into enemy territory. But once you jump a gate. they know you are there. How bout that??
CCP Spitfire
C C P
C C P Alliance
#43 - 2011-11-29 07:44:16 UTC
Moved from 'EVE General Discussion".

CCP Spitfire | Marketing & Sales Team @ccp_spitfire
HELLBOUNDMAN
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#44 - 2011-11-29 08:06:13 UTC  |  Edited by: HELLBOUNDMAN
Mors Sanctitatis wrote:

6. (EDITED) Risk vs. reward: Eve is the only game I know of where high level PVE content is available in “safe areas”. WoW’s high level content is restricted to “dangerous” areas of the game, Eve should be similar- move the best/most lucrative PVE content to 0.0 and low security space (I’m looking at you, Level 4 missions, high-sec Incursions etc.).

Uhhhhh
Quote:
Note that the above points improve the life for all aspects of play. There is something of benefit there for everyone: PVPers,

So how was it beneficial to pve'ers again?

Low and Null have lvl 5's ded spaces, good rats, good loot, etc.etc.

If you remove lvl 4 missions and incursions from high sec, then There will be a chain effect.

Pve'ers stop running lvl 4's and incursions, and instead either quit or just run lvl 3's.(most will probably quit)
Which will cause much much less salvage and reprocessed materials
Which will tie in with your Reduction in efficiencies and what not
Which will cause all the ships in Eve to cost much more than they currently do

So that stealth bomber that suicide runs into the enemy to take out their tank just went from 20 mil or so to over 50 mil.
That pirate bs that does incursions and missions so well will cost 1.5 bil or more
Marauders will either have to be completely revamped or removed from the game, cause they're going to cost 1.5 bil or more and no one will use them cause you're not taking that weak of a pvp ship into low or null sec at that cost.
Carriers which are 6-800 mil right now will be 1.5 billion or more.
God knows how much it will cost to make supers and titans.
Rorquals won't be worth the isk investment cause an orca will cost 800 mil on it's own

And I think i'm being rather conservative on these prices considering you would be taking out 3/4 of where the materials come from by removing lvl 4's and incursions from high sec.

PVP combat in eve would be a nightmare, even for the richest of players.

Hell, doing this might even be the one thing that kills pvp in Eve. That or everyone is going to be fighting in t1 frigs or maybe cruisers.
Man, that would suck from tier 1 bs's to suddenly cost over double what they do now. They wouldn't even be covered by near the amount for insurance.. Forget about insurance on a faction or t2...You think they don't pay off that much now, just wait.

If this were implemented then life in Eve would become much much more difficult for everyone until it eventually died, or got reverted.. But even if it were reverted, there would probably be too many people gone to save Eve.
Mors Sanctitatis
Death of Virtue
#45 - 2011-11-30 01:35:19 UTC
HELLBOUNDMAN wrote:

So how was it beneficial to pve'ers again?

Low and Null have lvl 5's ded spaces, good rats, good loot, etc.etc.

If you remove lvl 4 missions and incursions from high sec, then There will be a chain effect.

Pve'ers stop running lvl 4's and incursions, and instead either quit or just run lvl 3's.(most will probably quit)
Which will cause much much less salvage and reprocessed materials
Which will tie in with your Reduction in efficiencies and what not
Which will cause all the ships in Eve to cost much more than they currently do

So that stealth bomber that suicide runs into the enemy to take out their tank just went from 20 mil or so to over 50 mil.
That pirate bs that does incursions and missions so well will cost 1.5 bil or more
Marauders will either have to be completely revamped or removed from the game, cause they're going to cost 1.5 bil or more and no one will use them cause you're not taking that weak of a pvp ship into low or null sec at that cost.
Carriers which are 6-800 mil right now will be 1.5 billion or more.
God knows how much it will cost to make supers and titans.
Rorquals won't be worth the isk investment cause an orca will cost 800 mil on it's own

And I think i'm being rather conservative on these prices considering you would be taking out 3/4 of where the materials come from by removing lvl 4's and incursions from high sec.

PVP combat in eve would be a nightmare, even for the richest of players.

Hell, doing this might even be the one thing that kills pvp in Eve. That or everyone is going to be fighting in t1 frigs or maybe cruisers.
Man, that would suck from tier 1 bs's to suddenly cost over double what they do now. They wouldn't even be covered by near the amount for insurance.. Forget about insurance on a faction or t2...You think they don't pay off that much now, just wait.

If this were implemented then life in Eve would become much much more difficult for everyone until it eventually died, or got reverted.. But even if it were reverted, there would probably be too many people gone to save Eve.


You talk about everything becoming astronomically expensive, but I disagree. Suppose for a second that tomorrow every bot in Eve was gone, Drone regions didn't drop minerals and the only way to mine ore was with Hulks.

At first the prices would increase. Skyrocket even. But players would rush to fill the void and while it would take a while to get organized, everything would once again reach equilibrium. Maybe the time-cost associated with mining would be such that the equilibrium point will indeed make ships and items more expensive than they are now. I'm okay with that. Right now things are so inexpensive that even the largest and most expensive ships are almost trivial to buy and lose. There NEEDS to be a cost to items for them to have meaning and value. Losing a faction BS should indeed be a painful experience.

For someone who seems to be a PVE/industry oriented player you sure don't have much faith in the other PVE/industrial players. I have a lot of faith in the player base to do what they do best: be a bunch of self centered greedy assholes and only do things in the game that benefit themselves.

Intelligence shouldn't be free.   Mining, reloaded.   ADDICTED.

Jazz Styles
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#46 - 2011-11-30 04:55:56 UTC
I like all of these ideas except trying to move level 4's into lowsec only - that will just make players settle for level 3's, because you're not going to get fat, helpless pve ships going into lowsec as it stands.

I have a fix for this problem tho Lol

The solution
Honestu Pravus
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#47 - 2011-11-30 05:34:24 UTC
I couldn't disagree with parts of it more... Just because I do not like to PVP does not mean I deserve to take an isk hit for not going out into 0.0...

While I agree that some re-mapping could be done with NPC generation and population, I do not feel that move would benifit the game vs a select section of players.

A lot of people would drop the game including myself if I had to deal with jerk who try to steal my mission loot or even pod me while I'm in a mission with no recourse.
Jazz Styles
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#48 - 2011-11-30 06:18:10 UTC
Honestu Pravus wrote:
I couldn't disagree with parts of it more... Just because I do not like to PVP does not mean I deserve to take an isk hit for not going out into 0.0...

While I agree that some re-mapping could be done with NPC generation and population, I do not feel that move would benifit the game vs a select section of players.

A lot of people would drop the game including myself if I had to deal with jerk who try to steal my mission loot or even pod me while I'm in a mission with no recourse.

I didn't even mention 0.0 in my post. And you're not taking an 'isk hit' anymore than you are now for not doing lowsec missions (which do actually offer more isk, setting aside the inevitable losses to pvp ships).

Currently, you get mission looters even in highsec, and you can get podded in lowsec anyway, so those are redundant arguments. My proposal simply normalizes the style of combat in eve to that of the pvp styles, since missions are incredibly boring and predictable and pvp isn't.

For you, Mister Highsec Only, all that would change is that you'd have to be at the keyboard instead of going afk while your domi's drones kill everything for you while perma-tanking.
Jazz Styles
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#49 - 2011-11-30 06:19:39 UTC
Sanguine Belroth wrote:
I can endorse delayed local. Even no local. On one condition
A proximity alert on your scanner.

God yes.

The directional scanner would have to be overhauled first, before local gets removed or nerfed in some fashion. It's 23000 years in the future, and ships are still equipped with scanners harder to use than ww2 radar P
Bethesda Vortarhiat
Godlike Wannabe
#50 - 2011-11-30 12:46:22 UTC
Mors Sanctitatis wrote:
Takseen wrote:
Mors Sanctitatis wrote:


Generally speaking, I'm referring to the "daily quests" (not instanced PVE content), and I'm referring to the relative benefit that a player receives while in a "safe area" in WoW compared to an unsafe area. Basically, in WoW a player can accomplish almost nothing from a production/money generating standpoint while in a "high security area". In order to do just about anything character development related the player must venture out into "low security" PVP areas. Note: I'm not an expert on WoW, I don't play it, and don't have years and years of detailed experience with it. I'm just making general comparisons.

And I do play that game, and I'm telling you its nothing like that now :)
All its group content is instanced, and thus has 0 pvp risk. To put it in Eve terms, its like you could teleport from Jita to a lowsec Incursion site of your choice, run it for as long as you like without anyone else being able to enter it, teleport in any replacement ships as needed, and teleport back to Jita when you're done.
The daily questing is open world, and thus there is a tiny risk on pvp enabled servers. Imagine in Eve that if you got ganked, you respawned somewhere in the same system with an identical ship and cargo, but with 1 million less ISK in your wallet. That's the level of "risk" you're talking about.
TLDR version. Most modern MMOs have ultra safe instanced areas for Pve, and even their open world pvp is low risk because you don't lose your gear on death.

I'd happily go afk at my leisure on a pvp server because the worse case scenario is a 2 minute corpse run when I get back. I don't afk in highsec space, because I might come back minus an 80 million set of implants and a 5-500 million ISK ship.



Point taken :)

WoW (as usual) is a poor analogy and example then. I think that the message to new players should be stronger and more focused as "the 'real' content in Eve is in 0.0 and low sec space" in order to properly indoctrinate them and set the expectations such that they're not disappointed when they can't earn a significant living in high sec space by farming PVE content.



INDOCTRINATE ? SET THE EXPECTATIONS? Is there something wrong with you ? seems to me like you are Stalin's lost nephew.Thing is like this,there will always and ALWAYS be a bigger number of players that dont like losing their gear than the ones that dont care.As you might have noticed...doin something in this game requires time,and some things require a stupid big amount of time,and some players really dont want to waste that.Not everyone is a tycoon in this game,nor a perfect pvp er to never lose a fight.Second of all is that some players DO NOT want pvp,its simple...can you understand that ? they do NOT want pvp for whatever reason they have.
So stop whining like 12 years old girlies to convince CCP to make all the game 0.0.This is a market,a gaming market,people buy...BUY,i mean they PAY with real earned money,for a product that you present and they want.You dont expect to make PVE amateurs ( missioning,indi...whatever pve ) join this game and then transform everything in PVP.People are different,they like different things,so thats what CCP is doing,trying to cover a couple of things.If it was only pvp they would have been bankrupt a long time ago,because i m damn sure if a pure 0.0 no sec..pure pvp Eve would have been profitable someone would have made it already.But they didnt,because it doesnt work.
I do pvp myself and i dont mind anything that would make it better,but force players into pvp just doesnt cut it my friend.If you sub to this game cos you like mining you do it just because of that.Probably after u get ganked 2-3 times and you see the risks the game presents,and you could say...mhh yea..i wouldnt mind that now and then,but what would happen if it was 24/7 ?you would just quit,because you joined this for that thing alone,not for being ganked...or be a ganker for that matter.And your point about CCP

There was ppl who fancied INDOCTRINATION in real life...lots of them,starting with Hitler,Stalin and other idiots who didnt realised that not everyone sees what they see.
HELLBOUNDMAN
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#51 - 2011-11-30 18:57:54 UTC
Mors Sanctitatis wrote:

You talk about everything becoming astronomically expensive, but I disagree. Suppose for a second that tomorrow every bot in Eve was gone, Drone regions didn't drop minerals and the only way to mine ore was with Hulks.

At first the prices would increase. Skyrocket even. But players would rush to fill the void and while it would take a while to get organized, everything would once again reach equilibrium. Maybe the time-cost associated with mining would be such that the equilibrium point will indeed make ships and items more expensive than they are now. I'm okay with that. Right now things are so inexpensive that even the largest and most expensive ships are almost trivial to buy and lose. There NEEDS to be a cost to items for them to have meaning and value. Losing a faction BS should indeed be a painful experience.

For someone who seems to be a PVE/industry oriented player you sure don't have much faith in the other PVE/industrial players. I have a lot of faith in the player base to do what they do best: be a bunch of self centered greedy assholes and only do things in the game that benefit themselves.


You're talking about ore. While removing bots and removing minerals from drones will effect the ore market, it will work its way back down and balance out at a higher figure, but not too high.
This we can probably agree on.

However, I was not referring to ore.

I am referring to lvl 4 missions in specific (not so much high sec incurions). With lvl 4 missions in high sec, there is a large majority of Eve that focuses on these.
All that salvage and loot that comes from this gets sold on the market and a good portion of the loot is reprocessed for the minerals.

If you remove lvl 4 missions from high sec and everyone starts running lvl 3's, then I'm willing to bet that you're cutting down the amount of salvage presented by 50% if not more, and that's if no one quits.
This is because very few people are going to chase lvl 4's into low and null sec.

On top of that, you also have to figure that with the removal of lvl 4's from high sec and with the removal of incursions from high sec, then sales on high end ships will go down a rediculous amount.

Without lvl 4 missions in high sec and high sec incursion then very few of these ships will be sold.
Marauders
Pirate bs's
t1 bs's
Tengu's(mostly cause they're the most widely used sc for pve)
Ded space items
Faction items
Logistics

There's probably more in there that I can't think of. Without high sec lvl 4's and incursions there's no need for these ships to even exist because very few people will be willing to use them in pvp based on the costs of these ships, and with marauders, lack of pvp capability.
Sure, logistics will be used still, but they will cost significanlty more.

If you remove lvl 4's and incursions from high sec, then you're cutting back 50% of the loot and reprocessed minerals that are received from these activities, which means everything in game is going to cost double what it does now.

High end ships will be used much less because they'll be rediculously over priced.

Most people in Eve buy and fly ships for what they do based on a price to functionality ratio.

Marauders are easily jammed and expensive, plus expensive to fit with a capable fit. Thus they are not purchased for pvp because their cost to functionality ratio is not balanced for pvp.
Pirate ships are quite capable of pvp, but their price to functionality ratio is still too expensive for most players to risk losing them in pvp.
Therefore, these two ship type are puchased primarily for lvl 4's and incursions.
Take that away and they will become much less used.
Double the costs of production and they won't be used.

Hell, even t1 bs's are going to cost double the price, so they won't be used for pvp by most players because they're not funtional enough to risk the costs.
Not to mention bs's are too large to effectively engage lvl 3 missions as well.

So essentially what I'm saying is that if you remove lvl 4 missions and incursions from high sec you're not only going to end up doubling the costs of ships in Eve, but anything with a battleship frame will become too oeverpriced for pvp and low/null pve, and too ineffective for high sec pve.

So you'll kill an entire class of ships.
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