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A question about the Eve Culture
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Puppet Mas'ter
The Merchants of War
#41 - 2011-09-11 01:18:53 UTC
Kilrayn wrote:
Firstly yes, EvE has griefers, and it is a part of the game. However, those people who grief have almost zero way to identify your character as a new player,



Really? Thats odd cause I can right click on someone, get info, look at their employment history and at least tell if the character is new

CCP: Madness!!! This is FiS Us: Fis? chuckle (╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻ Us: THIS IS EVE
Cunane Jeran
#42 - 2011-09-11 01:25:06 UTC
There are pockets of decent people out there who help out newer folks, they may take some time to find though, Generally the folks in the newbie corps are pretty helpful and will point you in the right direction. There are also many player run organisations such as eve uni which help newer players.

That said remember the 3 golden rules

1) Trust no one
2) Don't fly what you can't afford to replace
3) If you find yourself in a fair fight, you both ****** up somewhere.
Puppet Mas'ter
The Merchants of War
#43 - 2011-09-11 01:33:21 UTC
schurem wrote:
I think a lot of the class went out of the game when the goons decided to stay. They are self-declared griefers. WTF is a griefer? not someone out to build an empire or a glorious name for themselves. someone out to ruin someone elses' day. someone hell bent on scamming anybody dumb enough or naive enough to fall for it. someone who prides himself on blowing up not just ten but a hundred defenseless newbie frigs.

Let me correct that. Goons and low-sec pirates (such as the guys camping rancer 23/7) do want a glorious name for themselves. But in the process they redefined glory to meaning "being the greatest psycho barbarian destroyer" instead of something more traditional such as "feared conqueror of equals".

Thats a negative goal. destroying stuff has become what this game is all about. kicking over the other kids sandcastle has become the norm. the guy whose castle is kicked over is a stupid chump for letting that happen. building stuff is for carebears. and those are sorry creatures.

In other mmo's those who like to build instead of fight are honored, prized. called crafters. makers. not derided as carebears. What i find hard to get is why there still are minerals being mined, rats being shot and goods being hauled in this culture.

I wonder why the hell i'm still giving a **** about eve. loyal as a dog i guess. love to look at purty spaceships once in a while. the game died for me when a bunch of drunks and goons destroyed ISS. When they died, 0.0 ceased being the frontier, and became the wasteland.

Sadly I have no idea how to turn the eve culture around. I dont even know if that is at all possible. How can you change a thousands minds, if changing just one can seem impossible?

How can we redefine glory to mean something more than fearsome again? Can building something become glorious again? Finding something? How about a bank that is -not- a scam for a change? How about a fleet that sweeps clean sectors of low-sec so they can be mined and ratted for fun and profit? How can these things become cool again, things to brag about and looked up to for?

Fairlu obvious from your rant... the goons much die lol

CCP: Madness!!! This is FiS Us: Fis? chuckle (╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻ Us: THIS IS EVE
Cloora
APEX Unlimited
APEX Conglomerate
#44 - 2011-09-11 02:00:42 UTC
Anyone here in this thread that hates griefers join APEX Unlimited. We blob, jam and hotdrop the griefers as much as possible. The amount of ironium found in griefer tears makes them the sweetest of all.

http://www.altaholics.blogspot.com
Inzax
#45 - 2011-09-11 02:52:23 UTC
I was lucky to get recruited into a corp early on. Easy going people who wanted to help. Many have come and gone but a core group remained.....until Incarana....
Kelduum Revaan
The Ebon Hawk
#46 - 2011-09-11 03:21:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Kelduum Revaan
"Poetic Stanziel" wrote:
If you are looking for carebear compadres, then head to http://www.eveuniversity.org

I'm not slamming them. They will freely admit that they are a carebear corporation. They are there to serve the new player in a gentle, as free of pvp as you can get environment. Many of the players there never set foot in lowsec.

If that's the type of game you want, you'll find plenty of people who share that view in EVE University.

You still can't escape PvP entirely, but they'll teach you how best to avoid it 95% of the time.


Don't mind Poetic, she's a little bit out of date: http://forum.eveuniversity.org/viewtopic.php?t=47360
MevNav Hawkens
Perkone
Caldari State
#47 - 2011-09-11 03:28:28 UTC
Nothing really changed with Incarna, it's nothing to leave the game over.

I like what the previous guy said. People are too focused on KILL KILL KILL KILL KILL KILL that they have lost their vision on what real greatness is. The killboard doesn't mean squat. If you find yourself in a fair fight you've ****** up? Then I'd rather **** up, because a fair fight is more fun! I don't care if there's only one ship in the end, I'd rather be in a 5 battleships VS 5 battleships fight than a 10 battleships VS 2 frigates fight.

The killboard is secondary, especially when you're aiming to fill it with tons of newbie kills. If you're going to kill, do it for a reason, not just for the sake of killing.
Herping yourDerp
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#48 - 2011-09-11 03:29:09 UTC
bitter vets are bitter about some things...

most players aren't resentful or hateful to new players if your arn't a moron...
first learn terms, do you know what a buffer tank is? if u don't figure it out... u need to learn terms because people hate explaining what points, killboards, killmails, buffer tanks, and active tanks are....

next please note that griefing is part of eve, so can flipping happens when fail pirates need a cheap kill.. the good news is you learned from your mistake

in a wormhole they don't know anything about you... if ur an invader it makes sense to kill u please note that u cannot assume anyone is neutral so its not worth the risk on their part

lowsec is a sesspool or pirates and will kill u just cause they think thats what the game is about, but who are you or i to make their sandbox.... stay outa lowsec and ur fine.


older players don't hate newer players, its just the norm of eve if ur in a situation u can be attacked openly by another player it will most likely happen.
Hotaru Yamato
Perkone
Caldari State
#49 - 2011-09-11 03:47:56 UTC
Play with friends. Ignore bitter people.
Laura Holt
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#50 - 2011-09-11 04:04:06 UTC
Pretty Standard thread.

The OP says the "Culture of EVE is dysfunctional."
Dozens of replies say; "Its not dysfunctional, you just have to learn to cope with it."

Never seems to dawn on anyone that just because you can, or you've learned to cope with an environment doesn't mean its not dysfunctional.

The OP's post only skims the surface of all the in-game behavior that targets the NEW/Defenseless player.

Take for example, All the Manufacturing Slots in a Newbie Station being filled with jobs that take several days, while in the Stations just one jump away all the manufacturing slots are free. This is behavior that is engaged in by numerous players in order to force the new players out of their element and put them at risk. New players ARE being targeted, because they are NEW, Unaware, Defenseless.

The OP doesn't mention Miners/Mining and the way they are targeted. The Suicide-Ganking of defenseless ships.

When you come to the Forums to complain or question, you are given the standard dose of "Bully-Rhetoric" designed to numb you and get you to hold still long enough for them to target/grief/gank you again. "Oh, well, don't fly what you can't afford to lose." "Yeah, its about dealing with Risk." "Well, if its a fair fight, there's gotta be something wrong."

the Culture of EVE is as dysfunctional as they come. The Sandbox is over-run by Bullies.
Hatch Nasty
Solus Inter Astra
Independent.
#51 - 2011-09-11 04:19:32 UTC
Sombre Asesinos wrote:
Why are the Veteran players so Resentful of the new players? I would think they would be glad for new players, that they might even try to recruit and train new players...

Sorry, I'm just extremely puzzled.


My god these new forums suck. I just spent 20 minutes writing a thought-out response, only to have Preview eat it. Then Post ate my second reply, which I luckily put in the clipboard before I hit the button. Anyway...

To answer in brief, most experienced players don't hate or resent new players. But speaking personally, I find a lot of noobs to be annoying. I get tired of seeing the same questions over and over, the same posts in forums, the same rage that this game is dumb because it's not like some other game. I'm not a "PVP for PVP's sake" kind of guy so I don't grief or hunt anybody, noob or otherwise. But at the same time I'm not Mother Teresa here to hold another player's hand and guide them safely down the primrose path. They'll either HTFU and stick it out, or not. No skin off my nose either way.

About your can flipping, 0.4 camp gank, and wormhole gang **** - let me ask you a question. Before those things happened, how much out-of-game reading did you do to educate yourself about EVE? As a new player, you get auto-joined to Rookie Help on login for the first 30 days. Did you ever spend some time reading the chat? Because all three of those situations are pretty well documented and/or discussed.

That's the problem I see with so many noobs (not saying you personally Sombre). They don't take the time to learn anything about the game and its rules, and in a lot of cases it seems they don't even finish the tutorials because they have no idea how to do even the most basic stuff. They just expect that somebody (AI or another player) will hold their hand and walk them through everything. EVE just isn't that kind of game, and learning by trial-and-error can be... well, painful. Trial-and-error is the Hard Road, I'd rather spend 30 minutes reading a wiki or a guide than 500M ISK replacing a ship that I lost due to ignorance or ill planning.

So I don't think a lot of veterans hate noobs, but they may harbor disdain for the "I didn't take the time to learn anything, where's the easy button?" attitude that seems so prevalent among new players. And that disdain comes in the form of missiles and antimatter rounds.

As far as I can see in EVE the "culture" is a meritocracy, where you get out what you put in. I think that's a Good Thing.
Elyssa MacLeod
Doomheim
#52 - 2011-09-11 05:19:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Elyssa MacLeod
Puppet Mas'ter wrote:
Sombre Asesinos wrote:
puzzled QQ




Its funny as Ive complained in game to a GM about something somene did I thought was unfair in the few days after I first got here, this is the advice THE GM gave me:

"Welcome to EVE"


Cant say it better than when a GM tells you to suck it up

Laura Holt wrote:
The Sandbox is over-run by Bullies.


as the GM said "welcome to EVE"
Get over it or go play Hello Kitty Island Adventure

GM Homonoia: Suicide ganks are a valid and viable tactic in EVE.

Where is your God now carebear?
Poetic Stanziel
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#53 - 2011-09-11 05:29:40 UTC
Kelduum Revaan wrote:
Don't mind Poetic, she's a little bit out of date: http://forum.eveuniversity.org/viewtopic.php?t=47360

Please. This entire tactic is to stop people complaining/questioning the WSOP. The goal at the end of the month is for people to be begging you to reinstate the WSOP. So that you can go back to being 95% carebear without question for the next couple years (when you'll have to do it again to teach the lesson that PvP not on the Uni's terms is bad bad bad.)
Ladie Harlot
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#54 - 2011-09-11 06:47:33 UTC
Poetic Stanziel wrote:
Kelduum Revaan wrote:
Don't mind Poetic, she's a little bit out of date: http://forum.eveuniversity.org/viewtopic.php?t=47360

Please. This entire tactic is to stop people complaining/questioning the WSOP. The goal at the end of the month is for people to be begging you to reinstate the WSOP. So that you can go back to being 95% carebear without question for the next couple years (when you'll have to do it again to teach the lesson that PvP not on the Uni's terms is bad bad bad.)

You still mad that you got kicked out of e-uni for being a pest?

The artist formerly known as Ladie Scarlet.
Bel Amar
Rules of Acquisition
#55 - 2011-09-11 06:59:51 UTC
Ladie Scarlet wrote:
You still mad that you got kicked out of e-uni for being a pest?


Probably. Doesn't mean she's wrong though :)
cyllan anassan
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#56 - 2011-09-11 07:15:16 UTC
Sombre Asesinos wrote:
Nothing in this post will be aimed at insulting anyone so please keep that in mind as you read (if you read).

I've played MMOs since June 6, 2001 when World War II Online was released. WWII Online was 100% pvp, you couldn't speak to the enemy, etc. However, the overall culture was still fairly open and neutral.

Most of the MMOs out there are the same game just with different skins attached to stuff. When I read the description of Eve I had fond memories of Starflight (from the late 1980s), exploring the unknown, discovering planets, running into new species, etc.

I fully understood that unlike most MMOs you cannot avoid PvP in Eve. I've never liked PvP because you have to completely change everything you do for PvP. PvP has always meant paying huge sums of money for the slightest increase in the quality of the smallest part of your gear. That all fine for those that like to PvP. Anyway, I understood I'd have to learn to deal with Pvp if I wanted to experience Eve.

I first started playing Eve in May when SOE lost all of its web services. Since then I've fallen victim to can flipping once (the guy picked up the can, then as if to say "oops I sorry put it back and started to move off"), I stumbled into a 0.4 system before I knew what that meant, my noobie ship was obliterated with the 1st shot, my pod with the 2nd. I've not repeated either of those mistakes. I ventured through a wormhole once, I started exploring, I got jumped by a group of five T3 cruisers that made quick work of my brutix.

I've listened to players talking to each other, I've read some posts in the forums, the trolls usually manage to drown out anything of value, so I don't come here often.

There is a significant percentage of established Eve players that seem to absolutely Hate new players and view them as tresspassers. These players also do everything within their power to make new players so miserable that they leave. I've heard the phrase "Eve isn't a nice place.". Well no it isn't. These established players do everything within their power to run off new players.

While this sadistic behavior may be fun, at some point Eve as a whole will begin to suffer. A number of my SWG friends came to Eve, some of them were Avid pvpers. They have all left not because they don't like pvp, not because they didn't like Eve, not because they couldn't learn, but because of the absolutely hateful treatment they received. I've been lucky, I'm met some really helpful people that have helped me learn to stay out of trouble. Well more trouble anyway.

Why are the Veteran players so Resentful of the new players? I would think they would be glad for new players, that they might even try to recruit and train new players...

Sorry, I'm just extremely puzzled.





eve is hostile, full of griefers and scammers , it just isnt fun anymore
Celine Sophia Maricadie
Tal-Cel Industry and Salvage LLC
#57 - 2011-09-11 08:20:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Celine Sophia Maricadie
Poetic Stanziel wrote:
Kelduum Revaan wrote:
Don't mind Poetic, she's a little bit out of date: http://forum.eveuniversity.org/viewtopic.php?t=47360

Please. This entire tactic is to stop people complaining/questioning the WSOP. The goal at the end of the month is for people to be begging you to reinstate the WSOP. So that you can go back to being 95% carebear without question for the next couple years (when you'll have to do it again to teach the lesson that PvP not on the Uni's terms is bad bad bad.)


Wow, you're really butthurt over the Uni. Every chance you get you mention them. In fact you're so butthurt your thread you started on them got locked, for trolling a corporation. You reply first in here and you mention the Uni. If they're so carebear why does your employment history show you joining and dropping and rejoining a few times? You drop during some wars to go carebear? Your killboard shows all your PVP was with the Uni. Make up your mind. Your posts and blogs going on about the Uni changing, they make a change and here you are whining about that.

Face it, you got kicked. You're all proud of your grad medal yet they've got you on their Departed list which says you actually didn't graduate. Throw away that shiny thing. Put your money where your mouth is.

The romance is over. Go on a date, maybe get laid. I mean, why do you care so much? Grow up, move on. Go gather a bunch of newbies and train them your way. Go out there and proove that your ways are better.
Bubbles Udan
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#58 - 2011-09-11 08:52:56 UTC
A lot of people play eve, and they all play on one server.

There are like-minded individuals out there for you to play with, no matter what type of play style you are looking for.
Shawnm339
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#59 - 2011-09-11 09:04:07 UTC
This is the same as any way the vets are always hard on the new meat....number 1 they've not seen the same stuff go down as the vets, number 2 they don't know how long the fng's going to be around before he goes and quits

This game is also a magnificent example of everything that's good and bad in this world....this place is no less unforgiving than wandering into a bad part of New York for example....it also has great people (like the guy that gave me a fully fitted harbinger and said while you're flapping about trying to learn EVE and doing level 1s train for this.....I've done the same for other people

People make this game what they want your version of this game is no less relevant than the guys ragging you....however the same goes the other way....we're all part of the food chain at the end of the day
Avon
#60 - 2011-09-11 09:16:11 UTC
I think the OP is based on a false premise.

Bitter vets don't generally hate new players, just specifically the ones who cry about being new and begging for the game to be changed to suit them.

I don't look at character age when attacking a ship; I am an equal opportunities destroyer.