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[Proposal] AFK game play - the cloaked vessel

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Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#181 - 2014-03-11 15:46:24 UTC
NightmareX wrote:
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Snipped for brevity.
...
Your real question, stripping away the layers of misdirection and pretty labels, seems to be this:

Why do I have to be prepared to encounter other players in an MMO?

I did explain better on what i'm talking about here incase you missed it.

Maybe you should explain what i'm asking for there instead?

It will be my pleasure.

Snipped for brevity.
NightmareX wrote:
Why do others in local gain benefits ONLY when they do make some efforts to gain those benefits while afk cloakers can gain many benefits by making absolutely no efforts what so ever or doing nothing or being afk?

Yes, the afk'ers gains the benefits of causing fear upon others in local and denies them resources as it forces them to dock up or leave the system because there is no ways to figure out if they are afk or not, witch makes everyone else in local to be in a defense mode, even to players who are afk cloaked.

That's the unbalanced part i'm talking about.

It appears to me, that you are treating cloaking in a manner much like an audience does for a magic trick.
And, apparently, for much the same reason.

Please, permit me to explain:
A magic trick, to an audience member, is quick, and simple, despite often appearing difficult or impossible to explain.
They see none of the actual preparation, and accompanying effort that goes into crafting such illusion.

You, are suggesting that the cloaking ship, whether AFK or not, is also a quick and simple process.
You would seem to suggest that no preparation goes into it's ability to be present, and maintaining this presence in a manner that supports genuine threat is also free of such effort, since it goes unseen.

You would possibly suggest that a roam takes more effort, since it is highly visible. This visibility makes you aware of it, so the effort is given credit.

But, an equal number of players, waiting an equal amount of time, but behind a titan... well, you cannot see this before hand, so you seem to suggest it does not exist.
It almost seems that you suggest these other players are conjured by the cyno, rather than waiting patiently for this door to open.

The effort exists, when the threat is real.
In my opinion, knowing a player might be bluffing with this threat, is your responsibility to determine.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
NightmareX
Pandemic Horde High Sec Division
#182 - 2014-03-11 16:02:53 UTC  |  Edited by: NightmareX
Nikk Narrel wrote:
It appears to me, that you are treating cloaking in a manner much like an audience does for a magic trick.
And, apparently, for much the same reason.

Didn't i just treat the cloakers the same as everyone else that you have to make efforts to gain something?

If you are afk, you should not gain the benefits of causing fear upon others and deny them resources. As EVE is now, you are freely able to do this without making any effort or lift a finger to do those things. That's the problem. You should gain nothing by being afk.

Can i gain something by being afk in a station?

Why should you get free pass to gain free benefits by being afk just because you are in a cloaking ship?

Nikk Narrel wrote:
Please, permit me to explain:
A magic trick, to an audience member, is quick, and simple, despite often appearing difficult or impossible to explain.
They see none of the actual preparation, and accompanying effort that goes into crafting such illusion.

LOL, talk about driving the point i'm taling about away in a totally different direction. What does this have to do with making effort in EVE to achieve something?

Nikk Narrel wrote:
You, are suggesting that the cloaking ship, whether AFK or not, is also a quick and simple process.
You would seem to suggest that no preparation goes into it's ability to be present, and maintaining this presence in a manner that supports genuine threat is also free of such effort, since it goes unseen.

You would possibly suggest that a roam takes more effort, since it is highly visible. This visibility makes you aware of it, so the effort is given credit.

No, i'm suggesting that you should MAKE EFFORT to be able to cause fear and deny others resources. Sitting afk and making no efforts to the game shouldn't gain you free benefits like you get now. Again, fear and denying of resources is the benefits an afk cloaker gets now, witch should be changed.

Nikk Narrel wrote:
But, an equal number of players, waiting an equal amount of time, but behind a titan... well, you cannot see this before hand, so you seem to suggest it does not exist.
It almost seems that you suggest these other players are conjured by the cyno, rather than waiting patiently for this door to open.

The effort exists, when the threat is real.
In my opinion, knowing a player might be bluffing with this threat, is your responsibility to determine.

You still didn't answer me on why afk cloakers should gain the benefits by causing fear and to deny others resources by doing no efforts at all while being afk to achieve that?

Why can't i do no effort while being afk to cause fear upon you as an afk cloaker while you are in space?

Wouldn't that make it fair so both you and me have to be active and do something to not end up in troubles?

Here is a list of my current EVE / PVP videos:

1: Asteroid Madness

2: Clash of the Empires

3: Suddenly Spaceships fighting in Tama
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#183 - 2014-03-11 17:28:54 UTC
NightmareX wrote:
Nikk Narrel wrote:
...
The effort exists, when the threat is real.
In my opinion, knowing a player might be bluffing with this threat, is your responsibility to determine.

You still didn't answer me on why afk cloakers should gain the benefits by causing fear and to deny others resources by doing no efforts at all while being afk to achieve that?

Why can't i do no effort while being afk to cause fear upon you as an afk cloaker while you are in space?

Wouldn't that make it fear so both you and me have to be active to not end up in troubles?

I must reject the premise of your question, since I feel it makes a bad assumption which I cannot work with here.
I do not believe a so-called "AFK Cloaker" can cause fear in anyone, unless they deliberately place themselves in a position to be vulnerable.

I believe it has been shown that vulnerability is not required, in order to generate ISK. I feel that many are lured by the quick and easy temptations cutting corners may offer, and block themselves from playing when this tactic has risk.

Or, to put it another way, you seem to want to fly in a manner with higher income potential, that also comes tied to greater risk.
But, when that risk seems present, you suggest that you have no choice but to stop play, instead of adapting more defensively.

Your argument appears to center around your conviction that this choice you make, to either fly with maximum earning ability, or not to fly at all, represent the only options you have.

I do not agree with this conclusion.

I feel sympathy that you appear to have this all or nothing view, but I also feel that you put yourself in this position.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
NightmareX
Pandemic Horde High Sec Division
#184 - 2014-03-11 18:13:03 UTC  |  Edited by: NightmareX
Nikk Narrel wrote:
NightmareX wrote:
Nikk Narrel wrote:
...
The effort exists, when the threat is real.
In my opinion, knowing a player might be bluffing with this threat, is your responsibility to determine.

You still didn't answer me on why afk cloakers should gain the benefits by causing fear and to deny others resources by doing no efforts at all while being afk to achieve that?

Why can't i do no effort while being afk to cause fear upon you as an afk cloaker while you are in space?

Wouldn't that make it fear so both you and me have to be active to not end up in troubles?

I must reject the premise of your question, since I feel it makes a bad assumption which I cannot work with here.
I do not believe a so-called "AFK Cloaker" can cause fear in anyone, unless they deliberately place themselves in a position to be vulnerable.

I believe it has been shown that vulnerability is not required, in order to generate ISK. I feel that many are lured by the quick and easy temptations cutting corners may offer, and block themselves from playing when this tactic has risk.

Or, to put it another way, you seem to want to fly in a manner with higher income potential, that also comes tied to greater risk.
But, when that risk seems present, you suggest that you have no choice but to stop play, instead of adapting more defensively.

Your argument appears to center around your conviction that this choice you make, to either fly with maximum earning ability, or not to fly at all, represent the only options you have.

I do not agree with this conclusion.

I feel sympathy that you appear to have this all or nothing view, but I also feel that you put yourself in this position.

Again, you didn't answer my questions on why afk cloakers should get free benefits by making no effort?

Could you please stop avoiding the questions i'm asking?

Or are you out of arguments?

Oh yeh, you have to take 20 fking jumps out to somewhere to spy on someone. HUUUUUUGE EFFORT MAN. Does that mean the rest of the things you have to do in that system when you have arrived should be effortless and should grant you other free benefits for not playing the game in that system?

Yeah, that's as much effort as i have to do to move my slow ass battleship 10-12 jumps to do a story line mission. Does that mean that the mission i'm gonna do have to be effortless to complete the mission just because i made some effort to move there?

Why can't i do no effort and gain benefits on afk'ers while being afk when i'm not in a cloaking ship?

If you think it's fine to gain benefits while not playing the game, then i think it's fair that i also can get free benefits while not playing the game against the cloakers or others.

Until you have answered me on why afk cloakers should gain free benefits for not playing the game and why i as a non-cloaker shouldn't get other free benefits by not playing the game in the same way as the afk cloakers do, then you can write down as much wall of text as you want. If you can't explain those things i'm asking after here, then you are just doing damage control because you know you can get benefits for doing nothing and because you would hate to see this unbalanced mechanic go away.

Here is a list of my current EVE / PVP videos:

1: Asteroid Madness

2: Clash of the Empires

3: Suddenly Spaceships fighting in Tama
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#185 - 2014-03-11 18:40:10 UTC
NightmareX wrote:
Nikk Narrel wrote:
NightmareX wrote:
Nikk Narrel wrote:
...
The effort exists, when the threat is real.
In my opinion, knowing a player might be bluffing with this threat, is your responsibility to determine.

You still didn't answer me on why afk cloakers should gain the benefits by causing fear and to deny others resources by doing no efforts at all while being afk to achieve that?

Why can't i do no effort while being afk to cause fear upon you as an afk cloaker while you are in space?

Wouldn't that make it fear so both you and me have to be active to not end up in troubles?

I must reject the premise of your question, since I feel it makes a bad assumption which I cannot work with here.
I do not believe a so-called "AFK Cloaker" can cause fear in anyone, unless they deliberately place themselves in a position to be vulnerable.

Again, you didn't answer my questions on why afk cloakers should get free benefits by making no effort?

I feel the question to be misleading.
I think that they do not get free benefits, as I feel their efforts are significant.

I would suggest that your view of them does not take into account the actual cost they pay in both time and direct effort.

To hold them accountable, because you are unable to determine between a genuine threat and a false one, seems to be what you are having trouble with.

If they are not a genuine threat, you are free to do as you please, having no more risk than if they did not exist at all.

But, for the quality and quantity of their efforts, which they are under no obligation to reveal, they can become a threat.
If they tell others of your activity, they are a scout, and alert more direct threats to your presence.
Getting this ship in position to scout takes effort both in time and ISK, in significant amounts.
Informing others also takes effort.

If they attack you directly, they are the hostile, and may be able to damage or destroy your ship.
Getting this ship in position to attack with takes effort both in time and ISK, in significant amounts.
Attacking also places this ship at risk.

If they open a cyno on you, possibly putting a point on your ship, then they are both hostile as well as the vanguard of enough to be dangerous.
Getting that ship into position to attack takes both time and ISK, as well as every other player involved who went to the significant effort of coordinating and preparing this elaborate attack.
Attacking also places the original ship at risk, in addition to each vessel arriving on the scene.
You should feel flattered, as several players chose YOU to play with, and your skill and ability to keep the encounter going compared to theirs will determine the duration and outcome.

But I feel, that you consider this whole thing to only be a problem, and not an interesting part of EVE online.

May I suggest you do some research, and see first hand what it takes to stage these zero effort situations?
After all, if it is so little effort as you describe, it should be easy for you to judge it yourself directly.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Seraph IX Basarab
Outer Path
Seraphim Division
#186 - 2014-03-11 18:49:03 UTC
NightmareX wrote:
Seraph IX Basarab wrote:
You know how AFK cloaking is balanced? By the fact that I have to jump out 30 jumps in my paper thin frig to find you. The moment I enter local you all dock up, spam intel channels like a panic stricken rabbit in a thunderstorm and then sit and wait to see what happens.

Why should I bring a conventional ship that you can outblob or counter fit to whatever ship you have in your station? You have the home advantage of picking whatever ship you want and with more than likely overwhelming numbers. Cov ops are the way for the little guy to do something to bigger alliances. All you guys are scared about is not being able to bear it up. Your notion of fun is guys like me showing up in a gang of shield cruisers (cause **** flying 30 jumps in armor) and when you see us for you guys to undock with bigger better stuff (and of course more of it) kill us and smug it up.

No sir, i'm going to sit in your system for hours, days, weeks, months with glee knowing you're terrified of leaving your cozy pos or station and the moment when you let your guard down i'm going to drop thunder on you little rabbit.

Eve is a patience game and no one can honestly suggest a timer mechanism with any serious understanding of what the game is.

You clearly didn't take my point, so let me explain again.

Why do others in local gain benefits ONLY when they do make some efforts to gain those benefits while afk cloakers can gain many benefits by making absolutely no efforts what so ever or doing nothing or being afk?

Yes, the afk'ers gains the benefits of causing fear upon others in local and denies them resources as it forces them to dock up or leave the system because there is no ways to figure out if they are afk or not, witch makes everyone else in local to be in a defense mode, even to players who are afk cloaked.

That's the unbalanced part i'm talking about.

Why should afk'ers gain benefits by being afk in an MMO game that is all about those who are actively playing the game?

Why not change EVE so it makes those who afk alot to actually make some effort to stay in space instead of getting booted to the character screen?

Is that so much to ask for?



The effot comes from actually going 30 jumps into enemy territory and finding the enemy. You can't think in such a self centered manner to consider the situation purely from your perspective. And the only reason I AFK cloak is due to showing up on local and everyone docking up ASAP. Remove cloakies off local. Problem solved. Agree?
NightmareX
Pandemic Horde High Sec Division
#187 - 2014-03-11 19:18:15 UTC  |  Edited by: NightmareX
Nikk Narrel wrote:
I feel the question to be misleading.
I think that they do not get free benefits, as I feel their efforts are significant.

And here is the part where you totally fail to understand what we really are talking about, pal.

If you see the question on why cloakers should get free benefits of causing fear and to deny others resources while being afk as misleading, then what question makes it not missleading?

It can't be more clear on what i'm asking after. Again, why should a player who are afk be able to cause fear upon others and to deny them resources as the others in local will assume that this cloaker is ALWAYS active and are sneaking around as there is no ways to find out if they are afk or not?

Nikk Narrel wrote:
I would suggest that your view of them does not take into account the actual cost they pay in both time and direct effort.

Cost doesn't have anything to do with this discussion as we are talking about making effort to achieve something. Stop making ******** excuses.

Nikk Narrel wrote:
To hold them accountable, because you are unable to determine between a genuine threat and a false one, seems to be what you are having trouble with.

A player in local have no tools to figure out of one cloaker is active or afk. Because of that he will automaticly take him as active and will go into a defense mode everywhere where he are flying around. This is why it's a bad mechanic, because if you can gain those benefits to cause those things to the others in local while not playing the game, then why shouldn't i be able to cause the same / similar by sitting afk in station masturbating to a porn movie?

Yeah, i'm also afk, so i should be able to do the same as you right?

Or do you think you get some special treatment just because you are in a cloaking ship?

Nikk Narrel wrote:
If they are not a genuine threat, you are free to do as you please, having no more risk than if they did not exist at all.

How do the others in local knows that?

Stop looking through your own eyes. Look through the others peoples in locals eyes to see where the problem is. If your not completely blind here, you will see where the problem is. Why are your POV more important than the others POV in local?

Is that because you think you are special just because you are in a cloaking ship?

Nikk Narrel wrote:
But, for the quality and quantity of their efforts, which they are under no obligation to reveal, they can become a threat.
If they tell others of your activity, they are a scout, and alert more direct threats to your presence.

They should have the right to know if someone is afk or not like every other MMO games lets us know.

Here is a list of my current EVE / PVP videos:

1: Asteroid Madness

2: Clash of the Empires

3: Suddenly Spaceships fighting in Tama
NightmareX
Pandemic Horde High Sec Division
#188 - 2014-03-11 19:19:01 UTC
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Getting this ship in position to scout takes effort both in time and ISK, in significant amounts.
Informing others also takes effort.

Being afk is no effort and should get no benefits for that. You are mixing being active with being afk. Wake up and read what we are talking about. No wonder why it's a pain in the ass to talk with someone that can't even read what we are talking about.

Nikk Narrel wrote:
If they attack you directly, they are the hostile, and may be able to damage or destroy your ship.
Getting this ship in position to attack with takes effort both in time and ISK, in significant amounts.
Attacking also places this ship at risk.

If they open a cyno on you, possibly putting a point on your ship, then they are both hostile as well as the vanguard of enough to be dangerous.

What you don't understand here is that once those attack happens, it's game over for that person who gets attacked. That's why they should have a tool to see if someone is active or not. If they see that you are active, they will make sure to be prepeared to fight you before you drop the cyno.

Or are just just admitting that you are **** afraid to meet his weapons of destuction if he's actually prepeared for you?

Why should he fly around prepeared all the time and make tons of effort to defend him self for someone that isn't playing the game?

Nikk Narrel wrote:
Getting that ship into position to attack takes both time and ISK, as well as every other player involved who went to the significant effort of coordinating and preparing this elaborate attack.
Attacking also places the original ship at risk, in addition to each vessel arriving on the scene.
You should feel flattered, as several players chose YOU to play with, and your skill and ability to keep the encounter going compared to theirs will determine the duration and outcome.

Again, this is not about you as an attacker. It's about the POV to those others in local. Why are your POV as a single player more important than the rest of the peoples in local?

Again, just because you are in a cloaking ship, you shouldn't get special treatments with free benefits for not playing the game. If that's the case, then i also want's special treatments for being afk in a Vindicator in a station.

Nikk Narrel wrote:
But I feel, that you consider this whole thing to only be a problem, and not an interesting part of EVE online.

If you see through the other in locals POV and not your own ego POV, then you will see that there is alot of problems when it comes to afk cloaking. But hey, your POV is more important because you pay some gold premium membership for your account or something, right???

Nikk Narrel wrote:
May I suggest you do some research, and see first hand what it takes to stage these zero effort situations?

Maybe you rather should do some research by looking through the other peoples POV in local instead of your own ego POV where you don't want to see the massive problem the afk cloaking is causing.

Here is a list of my current EVE / PVP videos:

1: Asteroid Madness

2: Clash of the Empires

3: Suddenly Spaceships fighting in Tama
NightmareX
Pandemic Horde High Sec Division
#189 - 2014-03-11 19:19:52 UTC  |  Edited by: NightmareX
Nikk Narrel wrote:
After all, if it is so little effort as you describe, it should be easy for you to judge it yourself directly.

Try not to be a superman or at least pretent to be some sort of a smug hero.

Seraph IX Basarab wrote:
The effot comes from actually going 30 jumps into enemy territory and finding the enemy. You can't think in such a self centered manner to consider the situation purely from your perspective. And the only reason I AFK cloak is due to showing up on local and everyone docking up ASAP. Remove cloakies off local. Problem solved. Agree?

So basicly, you think you should do no effort to gain something in that system after you have arrived just because you made "some" efforts to get there?

Should i say i want no effort to complete a story line mission 10 jumps away just because i made some effort to get to that system where the mission is?

Here is a list of my current EVE / PVP videos:

1: Asteroid Madness

2: Clash of the Empires

3: Suddenly Spaceships fighting in Tama
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#190 - 2014-03-11 19:47:35 UTC
NightmareX wrote:
If you see the question on why cloakers should get free benefits of causing fear and to deny others resources while being afk as misleading, then what question makes it not missleading?

It can't be more clear on what i'm asking after. Again, why should a player who are afk be able to cause fear upon others and to deny them resources as the others in local will assume that this cloaker is ALWAYS active and are sneaking around as there is no ways to find out if they are afk or not?

Perhaps it would help, if we were to clarify some things.

Could you explain, please, why others in a system would assume that an apparently cloaked ship remained constantly active?

Your own writing suggests that you do not believe this to be true at all, since you seem quite passionate that they are AFK, and therefore not making any effort.

I find this to be contradictory, where you both declare them to be AFK and devoid of making an effort, while stating without compromise that they will be treated as perpetually active.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
NightmareX
Pandemic Horde High Sec Division
#191 - 2014-03-11 20:09:02 UTC  |  Edited by: NightmareX
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Could you explain, please, why others in a system would assume that an apparently cloaked ship remained constantly active?

Or let me ask you this. If just me and you was in the same local. You are out in space hunting NPC's and doing your own business. I'm in a Stealth Bomber sitting somewhere.

As you don't know what i'm doing, would you just pretend that i'm not spying on you or are not sitting ready to drop 30 blops on you?

What makes you to believe that they aren't active while they are in a cloaking ship?

Nikk Narrel wrote:
Your own writing suggests that you do not believe this to be true at all, since you seem quite passionate that they are AFK, and therefore not making any effort.

My writing tells all about that there is a problem with the afk mechanics when you looks through others peoples POV in local who are not using cloaking ships.

Ofc, your POV is more important than the rest of the others POV, right?

Nikk Narrel wrote:
I find this to be contradictory, where you both declare them to be AFK and devoid of making an effort, while stating without compromise that they will be treated as perpetually active.

I find it pretty amusing that you actually have problems to see the problems when you looks through the others POV that are in local. Again, are you some kind of a smug hero and will need some special treatment over others and that makes your POV more important than others?

Here is a list of my current EVE / PVP videos:

1: Asteroid Madness

2: Clash of the Empires

3: Suddenly Spaceships fighting in Tama
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#192 - 2014-03-12 00:46:45 UTC
NightmareX wrote:
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Could you explain, please, why others in a system would assume that an apparently cloaked ship remained constantly active?

Or let me ask you this. If just me and you was in the same local. You are out in space hunting NPC's and doing your own business. I'm in a Stealth Bomber sitting somewhere.

Point A: As you don't know what i'm doing, would you just pretend that i'm not spying on you or are not sitting ready to drop 30 blops on you?

What makes you to believe that they aren't active while they are in a cloaking ship?

Nikk Narrel wrote:
Your own writing suggests that you do not believe this to be true at all, since you seem quite passionate that they are AFK, and therefore not making any effort.

Point B: My writing tells all about that there is a problem with the afk mechanics when you looks through others peoples POV in local who are not using cloaking ships.

Ofc, your POV is more important than the rest of the others POV, right?

Nikk Narrel wrote:
I find this to be contradictory, where you both declare them to be AFK and devoid of making an effort, while stating without compromise that they will be treated as perpetually active.


Point C: I find it pretty amusing that you actually have problems to see the problems when you looks through the others POV that are in local. Again, are you some kind of a smug hero and will need some special treatment over others and that makes your POV more important than others?

I am saddened that you think so poorly of me.
I am neither a hero, nor so egocentric as to portray my view as superior to another soul.

I will try to answer your points, referenced above.

Point A:
I have a few options available. I can check out your history of kills, and determine if a pattern exists that shows when you are usually active.
I can take precautions, adding extra tank along with DPS, possibly adding friends locally if available. Mining in a venture, or ratting with omni resists and asymmetric damage types should help make me an expensive consideration.
It also helps if my hypothetical alliance has anchored a cyno jammer, meaning only expensive covert ships can be dropped.

Nothing needs to be perfect, or foolproof. It just needs to look too risky for a drop, or smell like an ambush.
Fear works in both directions.

Point B:
They are either AFK, or they are not. Schrodinger's cat analogy stands, since you won't know which it is unless you open the box and look inside.

As to my point of view, I try to be quite open, and not make assumptions. It is not possible for my POV to be more important, but I like to understand the differences between our respective views.
I hope to learn more at every opportunity, and the only way I know of is to challenge my beliefs appropriately.
Please try to convince me.

Point C:
I have faith in human nature, and I am most assuredly not special.
I have known many who let their expectations hold them back, from many opportunities for growth and happiness.
I know that I have made this same mistake many times myself, but I try to accept this and grow beyond it.

Questioning why we are afraid of something, seems to be a good place to look, in my opinion.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
NightmareX
Pandemic Horde High Sec Division
#193 - 2014-03-12 01:07:51 UTC  |  Edited by: NightmareX
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Point A:
I have a few options available. I can check out your history of kills, and determine if a pattern exists that shows when you are usually active.
I can take precautions, adding extra tank along with DPS, possibly adding friends locally if available. Mining in a venture, or ratting with omni resists and asymmetric damage types should help make me an expensive consideration.
It also helps if my hypothetical alliance has anchored a cyno jammer, meaning only expensive covert ships can be dropped.

Nothing needs to be perfect, or foolproof. It just needs to look too risky for a drop, or smell like an ambush.
Fear works in both directions.

Point B:
They are either AFK, or they are not. Schrodinger's cat analogy stands, since you won't know which it is unless you open the box and look inside.

As to my point of view, I try to be quite open, and not make assumptions. It is not possible for my POV to be more important, but I like to understand the differences between our respective views.
I hope to learn more at every opportunity, and the only way I know of is to challenge my beliefs appropriately.
Please try to convince me.

Point C:
I have faith in human nature, and I am most assuredly not special.
I have known many who let their expectations hold them back, from many opportunities for growth and happiness.
I know that I have made this same mistake many times myself, but I try to accept this and grow beyond it.

Questioning why we are afraid of something, seems to be a good place to look, in my opinion.

Point A:

Kinda funny that you miss the point that a Stealth Bomber with a cyno is not supposed to kill alot stuffs. It's supposed to cyno in stuffs.

So if you see that i have very few kills with the Stealth Bomber, does that make you safer from letting me drop a cyno on you and jump in 30 blops on you?

Looking up on my killboard wont reveal any of my spying and cyno dropping activities. So i'll guess you failed that one pretty hard, lol.

Point B:

Again, in your own POV, there is no issues as it gives you free kills with no risks. However, if you look through the other peoples POV's that are in local, you will still face the problem that they have to work their asses off and make alot of effort to defend them self to something that might not even be at their computers.

Your POV is fine, so why not make the others POV fine to, or do you think it's unfair that the others should have a fair game like you want to have a fair game?

Point C:

Again, according to you, your POV is more important than the other xx amount of peoples POV. Again, do you think you get some special treatment just because you are in a cloaking ship?

Lastly, your post was just a typical wall of text that is nothing more than an avoidance of what i'm telling you. You didn't even bother to answer any of my questions. You just came with some brainfarts about why you are more important than the others in local and why your POV as a cloaker is more important. Witch makes the conversation with you stupid.

Here is a list of my current EVE / PVP videos:

1: Asteroid Madness

2: Clash of the Empires

3: Suddenly Spaceships fighting in Tama
Nofearion
Destructive Brothers
Fraternity.
#194 - 2014-03-12 12:18:12 UTC
this is getting off topic. TO be honest both have made good points about the issue discussed here.
However poking at each other is not productive. bicker on another thread if you must. (yes stolen and adapted)
simply put there is no way to make everyone happy, one thing NightmareX and Nikk have in common is recognizing there is a problem. both have examples of different causes and solutions.
Basic Premise of this thread is the cloaking has an issue.
Threat of Force Projection from someone who either is, or is not AFK whilst cloaked in a system for long period of time.
Currently there is no ability to open the box to see if the cat is asleep or not without substantial risk.
Overwhelming agreement from most commenters is the activity regardless of kind should benefit active players not afk ones.
I have a TLDR version of the current suggestions in the opening topic on this thread.
Solid arguments for or against possible solutions are welcome.
Trolling will be ignored, but please attacking a posters POV is not helping find good solutions to the issue.
Jint Hikaru
OffWorld Exploration Inc
#195 - 2014-03-17 12:28:56 UTC
Nofearion wrote:

Basic Premise of this thread is the cloaking has an issue.
Threat of Force Projection from someone who either is, or is not AFK whilst cloaked in a system for long period of time.
Currently there is no ability to open the box to see if the cat is asleep or not without substantial risk.


Yet you still beat on that the AFK problem is limited to 'cloakers'.

The solo cloaker has no way of knowing if all the ships behind the POS shield are AFK or not, or all the people listed in 'local' who are not in space..... Are they waiting in the Station/Outpost, ready to mass undock as soon as he makes a move on some ratter... or are they simply AFK, to give the illusion of a threat.

You REALLY need to decide if your thread is about one of TWO issues...

1. Cloaks can stay on for a long time and I don't want them in game because i cant catch them.
2. People can go AFK but appear to be 'in game' in a large number of locations.

These are two different things, which you are lumping together to try to address what you see as a threat your personal gameplay style.

Jint Hikaru - Miner / Salvager / Explorer / SpaceBum In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.
Nofearion
Destructive Brothers
Fraternity.
#196 - 2014-03-17 15:43:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Nofearion
Jint Hikaru wrote:

Yet you still beat on that the AFK problem is limited to 'cloakers'.

The solo cloaker has no way of knowing if all the ships behind the POS shield are AFK or not, or all the people listed in 'local' who are not in space..... Are they waiting in the Station/Outpost, ready to mass undock as soon as he makes a move on some ratter... or are they simply AFK, to give the illusion of a threat.

You REALLY need to decide if your thread is about one of TWO issues...

1. Cloaks can stay on for a long time and I don't want them in game because i cant catch them.
2. People can go AFK but appear to be 'in game' in a large number of locations.

These are two different things, which you are lumping together to try to address what you see as a threat your personal gameplay style.


You are right to an extent. This has been argued before. there are many threads on how Broken Local is the the lack of proper intel mechanics. This thread is intended to address only one aspect.
I will address your concern.

1. on this point if you read throughout the thread you will find I do not want to remove cloaks, nor do I want to "nerf them"
I enjoy using cloaks both as a defence and as an offence. However I do belive that someone who remains cloaked for a longer than normal game session. for say three days from down time to down time, yes that is something I have an issue with.
2. ON this point I am in agreement. I play many games besides EvE. all including dust make EvE and exception by having an auto logoff mechanic based on activity. There are many many reason both positive and negative on both sides of the coin on that issue alone. But that is not what this thread is about. only a small portion of this issue is even involved.

Nikk Narell and myself have covered many ideas and point out that there should be a balance where by inactive players are effectively removed from the equation. there are several other threads on the issue. This one is about AFK cloakers. Blaming the rest of EVE for actions or inactions is silly.
Your last statement tells me that you did not bother to read past the initial headline.
I have never mentioned that afk cloaking threatens my playstyle.
I merely wish to expand upon it.
If you sit in a system cloaked, active or not, I should have an ability to hunt you. That is not a current form of gameplay.
I also believe that if I am cloaked in a system I should have the means within the vessel I am currently in to gather intel and hunt without resorting to lighting a cyno.
If I am a say miner or rather I wish to have the ability to stand a reasonable chance based on skills, fit, tactics to fight off a cloaked vessel that has attacked me.
and Personally I believe that that one person who is in my local and stays cloaked, afk or not, should do so with the same about of risk as me undocking and going about my usual business with him there.
Now I have taking time to read and understand what you are saying and have taken the time to give a measured response.
Please look things over again and give an intelligent response affording me the same respect I have given you.
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#197 - 2014-03-30 06:53:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Infinity Ziona
Baaldor wrote:
First how are they denying you anything? Now please just look at the question, how are they stopping you from doing anything.

Second, if they are not doing anything, like touching you, rubbing on you or anything else...what exactly are you defending against?

The issue is not AFK it the cyno's they typically fit.

Its an asinine argument to try to say oh they're afk how can they be denying you anything when they're afk. Its asinine because:

1. While they're likely often afk you never know if they are truly afk or not. This means if you're smart you have to assume they're not afk even though they likely are.

2. A question often asked (ironically by the same people that think cloaky cyno's alts are fine) of hotdrop victims on the forums is "why were you ratting, mining, missioning, hacking in a system with a nuetral? It was your own fault" which would suggest that those people consider that a nuet in system, whether potentially afk or not, would preclude all activities mentioned. Bit hypocritical imo.

3. A T1 frig (even a newb ship) with a cyno is one of the easiest skilled but most dangerous ships in game.

Ibis: Information
Development
The Caldari Ibis rookie ship is a small but stout vessel that fits admirably well as a cargo hauler, small-scale miner or highly agile fleet carrier. Its reliability makes it a good choice for novice ship captains.

Special Role Bonus with Cynosuaral Field Generator Fitted: 36,975,000,000 m3 of hanger space. Cloaks pilots in hanger bay so they do not appear in local.

Frankly as long as almost all ships can fit cyno's very easily, can deploy those cyno's any time, cannot be determined to be afk or non-afk, then any nuetral in system, especially with a history on their killboards of blops or titan drops, would logically preclude any activity in that system.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Brisco County
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#198 - 2014-03-30 08:41:35 UTC
joke's on them, dude. They spend like, $2/day on electricity to camp your system. Or their mom does, at least.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#199 - 2014-03-30 17:46:01 UTC
The premise of this response tries to sneak in a few assumptions, as if they were accepted by everyone automatically.

This is not true.

Infinity Ziona wrote:
Baaldor wrote:
First how are they denying you anything? Now please just look at the question, how are they stopping you from doing anything.

Second, if they are not doing anything, like touching you, rubbing on you or anything else...what exactly are you defending against?

The issue is not AFK it the cyno's they typically fit.

Its an asinine argument to try to say oh they're afk how can they be denying you anything when they're afk. Its asinine because:

1. While they're likely often afk you never know if they are truly afk or not. This means if you're smart you have to assume they're not afk even though they likely are.

2. A question often asked (ironically by the same people that think cloaky cyno's alts are fine) of hotdrop victims on the forums is "why were you ratting, mining, missioning, hacking in a system with a nuetral? It was your own fault" which would suggest that those people consider that a nuet in system, whether potentially afk or not, would preclude all activities mentioned. Bit hypocritical imo.

3. A T1 frig (even a newb ship) with a cyno is one of the easiest skilled but most dangerous ships in game.

Using the numbers above, as reference:

1. You are not required to believe anything.
Claiming smart people will believe your view implies any other view is foolish.
The truth is, you have to weigh your options, and whether it is cost effective for an opponent to attack you. If your system has a cyno jammer in place, you won't see any noob ships able to threaten with regular cynos.
If your ship has meaningful tank and fighting ability, and is not obviously solo and unsupported, it becomes a meaningful deterrent.
Keep in mind, the remaining possible attack ships are both pricey and less effective in combat.

2. Untie your perspective from the all or nothing choices, and you might see more options.
With a neutral in the system, hedge your bets. That means take additional precautions, like NOT using a min maxxed exhumer fitted for maximum yield, or a ratting ship fitted for maximum efficiency against rats with known tank and dps profiles.
(use Omni tank and DPS, in short)

3. A T1 frig looks great as a talking point, but the defending forces have to either be working in unprepared systems, or not bothering to protect them with gate camps and proper jamming.
You can't pretend to have prepared for defense, when you leave this open.

Implying that players should be able to operate safely in null, with no previous effort to prepare in place, suggests that 1 or 2 players should be able to thwart significantly more players who have made the effort.
Null is about group effort, and with strategic gate camps and cyno jammers, you can sometimes operate understrength or even solo if you play wisely.

Suggesting otherwise, that you deserve effective privacy in an MMO, is not reasonable.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#200 - 2014-03-30 18:17:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Infinity Ziona
Nikk Narrel wrote:
The premise of this response tries to sneak in a few assumptions, as if they were accepted by everyone automatically.

This is not true.

Infinity Ziona wrote:
Baaldor wrote:
First how are they denying you anything? Now please just look at the question, how are they stopping you from doing anything.

Second, if they are not doing anything, like touching you, rubbing on you or anything else...what exactly are you defending against?

The issue is not AFK it the cyno's they typically fit.

Its an asinine argument to try to say oh they're afk how can they be denying you anything when they're afk. Its asinine because:

1. While they're likely often afk you never know if they are truly afk or not. This means if you're smart you have to assume they're not afk even though they likely are.

2. A question often asked (ironically by the same people that think cloaky cyno's alts are fine) of hotdrop victims on the forums is "why were you ratting, mining, missioning, hacking in a system with a nuetral? It was your own fault" which would suggest that those people consider that a nuet in system, whether potentially afk or not, would preclude all activities mentioned. Bit hypocritical imo.

3. A T1 frig (even a newb ship) with a cyno is one of the easiest skilled but most dangerous ships in game.

Using the numbers above, as reference:

1. You are not required to believe anything.
Claiming smart people will believe your view implies any other view is foolish.
The truth is, you have to weigh your options, and whether it is cost effective for an opponent to attack you. If your system has a cyno jammer in place, you won't see any noob ships able to threaten with regular cynos.
If your ship has meaningful tank and fighting ability, and is not obviously solo and unsupported, it becomes a meaningful deterrent.
Keep in mind, the remaining possible attack ships are both pricey and less effective in combat.

2. Untie your perspective from the all or nothing choices, and you might see more options.
With a neutral in the system, hedge your bets. That means take additional precautions, like NOT using a min maxxed exhumer fitted for maximum yield, or a ratting ship fitted for maximum efficiency against rats with known tank and dps profiles.
(use Omni tank and DPS, in short)

3. A T1 frig looks great as a talking point, but the defending forces have to either be working in unprepared systems, or not bothering to protect them with gate camps and proper jamming.
You can't pretend to have prepared for defense, when you leave this open.

Implying that players should be able to operate safely in null, with no previous effort to prepare in place, suggests that 1 or 2 players should be able to thwart significantly more players who have made the effort.
Null is about group effort, and with strategic gate camps and cyno jammers, you can sometimes operate understrength or even solo if you play wisely.

Suggesting otherwise, that you deserve effective privacy in an MMO, is not reasonable.

I think this is more apologetic than reasonable. No amount of fitting for PvP will protect you against a fleet of magically appearing ships.

Cyno jammers do not protect against blops and are not deployable in NPC space. Nor are they realisticly deployable in most active sov space. Any hot droppers will of course choose blops or to use cyno alts in non-cyno jammed systems.

You cannot prepare a defense against hot droppers. Typical hot dropping alts will sit in local 23/7, its not realistic to have every member in space with a cyno fitted, in fleet and a 24 hour counter drop team on standby. It is realistic to have a cyno alt cloaked in a system 23/7 and able to become active at any time of the day or night.

No one is implying players should be able to operate safely in null. And there is no effort at all required to park a frigate in a system and leave it there. There is no appreciable effort required to click scan everyone once in a while on your cyno dropping alt, undock blops in the safety of your home system and drop on top of a single easy to kill ship with that fleet.

To equate effort to that is ludicrous.

At the end of the day EvE is about space combat. Its not about dropping fleets of PvP fit ships on one victim so you can get easy pointless kills. If a mechanic is harming the game, and I believe cyno's are, then that mechanic needs to be balanced.

Every module in EvE has a counter except for cyno's. A microjump drive has a 10 second delay, a cloaky ship has a minimum 5 second delay, a stealth bomber has a very fragile tank to make up for its instant lock, a bomb has a 10 second fuse, a smartbomb has very limited range and can't be activated on stations or gates.... a cyno has none of this and that's why we're seeing them everywhere, they're the current I Win button of EvE.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)