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Rank the following:

Author
Vicker Lahn'se
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1 - 2011-11-29 20:56:49 UTC
Rank the following in order of importance, highest to lowest:

Self, Family, Local Community, Nation, Human Race
Zagam
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#2 - 2011-11-29 21:08:34 UTC
Family, self, local community - nation and human race depends on the situation. (ie: if the political winds are being incredibly stupid, I'm going to put the human race above the nation... but if it comes to defending my country, or choosing the human race... give me a gun to defend my nation)
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
#3 - 2011-11-29 21:56:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Akita T
Humankind tied with Self, Family right after, FRIENDS in-between, Locals tied with Nation somewhere far below priority-wise

"Self" is kind of included in the human race, so if the human race goes... under NORMAL circumstances nothing else really matters all that much anymore. On the other hand, between destroying the human race with me being able to live forever or sacrificing myself to ensure the human race would live forever... oooh, tough choice.
Family is the next logical step, one with the most ties afterwards.
Friends are somewhat of an extended family.
Locals and Nation, don't really give that much of a damn, would put friends far above either regardless of location/race/nation of those friends.

I bet I wouldn't be a very popular politician if I was honest about this, eh ? Twisted
stoicfaux
#4 - 2011-11-29 22:08:08 UTC
1. Self - Without Self, I wouldn't be here to answer your question.
2. Human Race - Without a human race, my children are going to be very alone.
3a. Family - Direct descendants/spouse
3b. Family - Other
4. Nation - Provides better defense, technical and medical services, etc., than the local community.
5. Local Community

However, 3b through 5 can be interchangeable depending on circumstances.

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.

Destination SkillQueue
Doomheim
#5 - 2011-11-29 22:59:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Destination SkillQueue
1. Self - Pretty obvious, since it's a requirement for all the rest to have any meaning. Besides if you don't value yourself to some degree, you're not good for the family, pretty useless to the nation and local community and you propably don't value other humans highly either. Naturally this personal viewpoint influences my whole list.

2. Family - Family sticks together and supports each other through life. Doesn't mean I approve of everything they do, but I'll be there for them when they need me even when I disagree with them. I'll try to get them to correct their path though, if I see them going down the wrong road.

3. Nation - Ultimately the only thing protecting your people, your way of life and your culture. People can disagree with me on this, but we are a small nation of little over 5 mil people and we remember WW2 and the aftermath. Some people who didn't have a nation to protect them aren't around anymore. The jews are the first thing most people think when they think about people who got majorly shafted, but they managed to survive and had learned the importance of having a nation to protect them. Others weren't so lucky and aren't around anymore.

4. Local community - Important as it handles many daily activities and social interactions, but that's mainly all it does. A necessity, but of secondary importance in many cases. It doesn't do things you couldn't get done by other actors/groups.

5. Human race - Naturally it's important, but every member of the human race tends to belong to all of the other groups too these days. Basicly it means, that mostly it's not an important consideration, since they have themselves, their families, communities and nations to take care of themselves. When all those fail, we can cover their failings until they get a handle on things again, but primarily it's their responsibility to take care of themselves.

There are some things, that are actually good and even necessary to handle at this level though, so I wouldn't dismiss it's importance. It's just that when considering what's important and necessary to life, there are loads of more immediate things that need doing before you have the luxury of considering the human race as a whole. I think we are at that point now though, but if the other groups don't work, any considerations of the human race as a whole is the least of your worries.
FloppieTheBanjoClown
Arcana Imperii Ltd.
#6 - 2011-11-29 23:26:13 UTC
Self, Family, Human Race, Local Community, Nation.

Self first, because I cannot do anything for the others if I do not take care of myself.

Family second because they're the people I care about. Also, friends fall into this group.

Human race third because matters which affect EVERYONE trump anything smaller.

Local community fourth because these are the people I will be stuck with (and shooting) when the zombie apocalypse happens.

Nation last because I picked all the other stuff before it.

Founding member of the Belligerent Undesirables movement.

Citizen20100211442
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#7 - 2011-11-29 23:38:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Citizen20100211442
There is no such thing like "Human race".

1.Self,
2.Family
3.Nation
4.My race
5.Rest of the races.

Ordered by amount of identity I share with those groups.

To be, or not to be, that's the question.

stoicfaux
#8 - 2011-11-29 23:47:16 UTC
Citizen20100211442 wrote:
There is no such thing like "Human race".


Tell it to the dolphins and whales. I'm pretty sure we all look alike to them.

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.

Vicker Lahn'se
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#9 - 2011-11-29 23:50:38 UTC
It's interesting that so many people put "self" above everything else. In Roman times, a good person was seen as having the attribute of being "pious". For example, Aeneas is described quite often as "pious Aeneas". To the Romans, the word "pious" was taken to mean a person who values one's gods, nation, family, and self in that order.

Heroic figures are often described as being "selfless", and, as such, are willing to place their life on the line for the wellbeing of those around them.

If you said that you value yourself more than your family, consider the following: Let's say you're in a situation with one of your family members such that one of you must die and the other survive, and you are the one who must make this decision. Do you really mean to say that you would allow your family member to perish?

If you said that you value yourself more than your nation, consider this: Imagine that a man approached you who claimed to be a member of a terrorist organization. He is willing to give you 500 million dollars, in cash, on the spot, in return for information that you have. Giving him the information will ultimately help him, in a rather small way, to dismantle your currently established government and replace it with a new one. There is absolutely no chance that you will be linked with the terrorist organization after the transaction. Even if the gain to you is rather large and the loss to your nation is somewhat small, would you still place your own wellbeing above that of your nation?

I could go on with other examples, but I think I've made my point. Are human beings really that self centered? Is it foolish to hope that our society can achieve more if we worked for the common good of those around us?
Alain Kinsella
#10 - 2011-11-30 00:15:43 UTC
@Vicker - you should wait a bit longer, many take a break from Eve for a day or two during a major release.

Anyway -
Family/Friends (they are same to me), Humanity, Community, Self, Nationality

I considered placing Self last (honestly, if I died right now I'd be happy with what I've done), but the way nearly all nations are self-destructing themselves these days Nationality as a whole can go DIAF.

I have very few friends, so they're family to me. Same to co-workers sometimes as well. I've also valued the lives of others for some time now, ever since those two suicide attempts when I was a kid (and realizing that anyone - in this case my father - cared enough to go through Hell and back to prevent that again).

Communities are why I still get involved in online gaming, and the loss of that (example: Uru) will quickly cause my exit.

"The Meta Game does not stop at the game. Ever."

Currently Retired / Semi-Casual (pending changes to RL concerns).

Zedic
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#11 - 2011-11-30 00:18:05 UTC
Family
Human Race
Local Community
Nation
Self

Yes yes, I'm doing it wrong. pffft
Alain Kinsella
#12 - 2011-11-30 00:24:39 UTC
Vicker Lahn'se wrote:
If you said that you value yourself more than your nation, consider this: Imagine that a man approached you who claimed to be a member of a terrorist organization. He is willing to give you 500 million dollars, in cash, on the spot, in return for information that you have. Giving him the information will ultimately help him, in a rather small way, to dismantle your currently established government and replace it with a new one. There is absolutely no chance that you will be linked with the terrorist organization after the transaction. Even if the gain to you is rather large and the loss to your nation is somewhat small, would you still place your own wellbeing above that of your nation?


Personally, I'd give him the info free of charge. Just the idea of that cesspool in D.C. being deep-sixed would be enough of a payment. We seriously need a hard reset of some sort, but no one has the balls to do it.

Perhaps when the Iraq Dinar revalues I'll be less bitter.

"The Meta Game does not stop at the game. Ever."

Currently Retired / Semi-Casual (pending changes to RL concerns).

stoicfaux
#13 - 2011-11-30 00:26:41 UTC  |  Edited by: stoicfaux
Vicker Lahn'se wrote:
It's interesting that so many people put "self" above everything else.
...
I could go on with other examples, but I think I've made my point. Are human beings really that self centered? Is it foolish to hope that our society can achieve more if we worked for the common good of those around us?


Speaking of self-centered, why are you only able to see "Self" in such a negative fashion?

At a minimum, we can take a very pragmatic existential view in that without *me*, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

More importantly, without a sense of Self, I wouldn't be able to rank the list of items. Without a sense of "Self", I wouldn't be able to commit a selfless act because a person that puts Nation above Self would just be an automaton that lives only to serve a Fascist State, a slave in a caste system, a religious zealot performing actions because someone else tells them to, and not because those actions are the Right Thing To Do. A person without Self is unable to say "No! That. Is. Wrong. And I will not let it stand!" Without a sense of Self, a person cannot stand up to societal peer pressure. History has show how Evil can be institutionalized. Hell, we still have slavery today.

Selfless acts cannot be selfless unless you deliberately choose to risk the loss of your Self, thus implying that Self has tremendous value to one's self.


tl;dr Context is everything.

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
#14 - 2011-11-30 04:43:42 UTC
Vicker Lahn'se wrote:
If you said that you value yourself more than your family, consider the following: Let's say you're in a situation with one of your family members such that one of you must die and the other survive, and you are the one who must make this decision. Do you really mean to say that you would allow your family member to perish?

I don't say it would be easy, but yes, yes I would choose me over any member of my family.
Heck, I probably wouldn't even donate one of my kidneys if a family member needed it to survive and I was a match, I went through one major surgery and given the choice between my major INCONVENIENCE and one family member's death I would PROBABLY choose their death if nobody else came forward.

Quote:
If you said that you value yourself more than your nation, consider this: Imagine that a man approached you who claimed to be a member of a terrorist organization. He is willing to give you 500 million dollars, in cash, on the spot, in return for information that you have. Giving him the information will ultimately help him, in a rather small way, to dismantle your currently established government and replace it with a new one. There is absolutely no chance that you will be linked with the terrorist organization after the transaction. Even if the gain to you is rather large and the loss to your nation is somewhat small, would you still place your own wellbeing above that of your nation?

Under those exact terms ? Heck yes.
In fact, to dismantle our current government to the bone and replace it with random people from the street ? Sign me up for that FOR FREE.

Quote:
I could go on with other examples, but I think I've made my point. Are human beings really that self centered?

Yes.
Most of them don't admit it to themselves though.
Or fear too much peer pressure into "doing the right thing" (meaning, what is EXPECTED of them).

Humans are naturally selfish lying thieving murdering bastards and it's only habit, peer pressure and fear (plus the occasional sliver of enlightened self-interest people delude themselves into calling "altruism") that keeps civilisation from crumbling.
Shivus Tao
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#15 - 2011-11-30 05:01:19 UTC
All are important equally. Without self there would be no qualitative race except what would be established by outisde observers.

Compare this to the body. The body as a whole is the human race. The varying levels between self and human race are the various structures that make up the body, with the self being each individual cell.
stoicfaux
#16 - 2011-11-30 07:11:54 UTC
Vicker Lahn'se wrote:

I could go on with other examples, but I think I've made my point. Are human beings really that self centered? Is it foolish to hope that our society can achieve more if we worked for the common good of those around us?


In the following examples, everyone is working for the "common good" of those around them. However, not all the acts are truly selfless, and that's why it's important to have a strong sense of Self. A selfless act requires giving up Self. Mindlessly accepting "duty" and "obligation" defined and imposed by community/nation/society isn't necessarily selfless.

* A person serving in their military is selfless. How selfless is a person serving because they have been drafted/conscripted versus a person who volunteers? What's more effective, an army of conscripts or an army of volunteers?

* A person performing community service is selfless. How selfless is a person ordered by a judge to perform community service selfless versus a person who chooses to do volunteer work? Which of the two is more likely to make a bigger difference?

* Is an Eve player who helps newbs out in the help channel and gives them 100M isk selfless? Or is a person who donates their $15 sub fee to the local soup kitchen selfless? Who is providing more help?


You cannot be human without believing that your belly button is the center of the universe. Having a sense of self is a byproduct of having free will and being an individual. If we didn't have a sense of Self to a large degree, we'd be nothing more than ants toiling "selflessly" (and mindlessly) for the queen. So while you may see a high ranking of Self as evidence of selfishness and self-centeredness, others rank Self highly because individuality is a key aspect of being human, and selfless acts committed by people with free will counts for more than selfless acts committed by those with a herd mentality.


Finally, there's also the contradiction in choosing family/nation/community over Self. Placing Self low on the list can require that you disregard society's opinion about your worth. You may want to risk your life with a kidney or bone marrow transplant to save the life of your nation's leader, but your family may think you're too important to risk. The mere act of ranking self, family, nation, and community is a very Self centered action because it implies that you consider your opinion to be more important than society's.

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.

Carceret Rinah
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#17 - 2011-11-30 09:20:53 UTC
Self

I won't add to the discussion of what it means to be selfless. I am honestly selfish, and would happily sacrifice every one of your lives if it meant even a small net benefit to me. I have no guarantee of my life's continuing value outside of my own mind (not psychic, not religious), so its preservation simply has to be my highest priority.

Family

Interpreted to mean chosen, recognized family regardless of blood ties... I would value this right below self. I think the social ties you choose to recognize are an extension of yourself. So, if I honestly call you family it means that I value you and see our relationship as essential to my security, identity and worth. I would only sacrifice you to save my own life or the lives of other family I value more highly.

Local Community, Nation

Anything beyond myself and my family is just too abstract for me to consider rationally. In even posting this, I feel more like I am talking to a vague "the Internet" rather than a collection of human beings with consciousness and agency and EVE accounts. However, I have to live somewhere, and the more bodies I can throw between myself and anything that threatens my home and family, the better. I don't know that having an identity makes someone a better meat shield.

Human Race

This is completely meaningless to me. Human lives are only worth anything to me personally if they are myself or family. I see everyone else as basically a soulless, expendable "thing", unless and until it reveals itself as useful or threatening to me. If the entire species just suddenly dropped dead one day, I don't think I'd really mind... especially if I am among the dead. No life = no mind = no cares.
NeoShocker
The Dark Space Initiative
Scary Wormhole People
#18 - 2011-11-30 09:55:40 UTC  |  Edited by: NeoShocker
Vicker Lahn'se wrote:
Rank the following in order of importance, highest to lowest:

Self, Family, Local Community, Nation, Human Race


First is Self.
Gotta take care of yourself. Can't always rely on others. Think survival of the fittest

Second is Family.
Someone you can support and one(s) that can support you. You don't really want to truly be alone yes? :O

Third is Race (as few pointed out. Its better to point out specific race, rather than human race as whole).
Sharing the same general ideals, beliefs, cultures, etc.

Forth is Local community
Neighbors, multiple of cultures, beliefs, and ideas.

Fifth is Nation.
Nations come and go. No nation and govenments last forever, but it is there to support and defend you, family, race, and local community.

And finally, the sixth, "Human Race"
Eh, **** 'em, who cares. :)
Christopher AET
Lethal Injection Inc.
#19 - 2011-11-30 12:43:41 UTC
First - Family. After all they brought you into the world.

Second - Nation, well I wouldn't be a very good member of Her Majesty's Armed Forces if this didn't rate pretty high.

Third - Self, well if this was any lower people would be asking "can I haz your stuff?"

Fourth - Human race. Well despite all the crap I am sure there is still some pretty awesome stuff to come. yeah....SCIENCE!

Fifth - Local community. Well I am based in the arse end of nowhere (cornwall) and by the standard of driving alone they don't deserve my liking. Plus taxi's are extortionate down here.

I drain ducks of their moisture for sustenance.

AlleyKat
The Unwanted.
#20 - 2011-12-01 17:22:25 UTC
Vicker Lahn'se wrote:
Rank the following in order of importance, highest to lowest:

Self, Family, Local Community, Nation, Human Race


It's all the human race and therefore is all equal in my eyes.

The minute you start to differentiate and compartmentalize human beings; that's how wars start.

Hell, even if we were all identical and worshipped the same gods and spoke the same language, lived by the same means - you would still find some morons intent on saying stuff like 'Hey, you're those guys from the south ain't ya? - we don't like your kind around here'

'kin pathetic...we all sleep under the same stars, remember that the next time you look at the sky.

AK

This space for rent.