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"Berzerker"-class Anti-Capital Ship T2 Battleship
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Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#41 - 2014-03-15 10:19:26 UTC
Chusa Unholy wrote:



I included 3 utility highs with each ship fitting. Each ship of this class has 3 more unbonused weapons available to it, 3 unbonused turrets if, like the Caldari Avesta, it uses missiles as the main weapon or three unbonused launchers if the ship uses turrets as the main weapon. Together with drones, you have some anti-tackler dps--6 RLMs per pair of Berzerkers, for instance, enough to fry an interceptor.

Or you can use those utility highs to spider tank the ships in a larger fleet setting. You would step those ships down to the shorter ranger variants in their class--Blasters, Pulses, Autocannons, Torps--but you'd free up a lot of power grid for remote reps and cap transfer. Spidertanking this ship is a definite possibility. It is not just another billion-isk glass cannon if you use your head.



if your only defence against subcaps it to use a split weapon system and some unbonused launchers, then you do not have a good defence against subcapitals. Split weapons and unbonused launchers are not good things. The paltry DPS you'd get out of them wouldn't really help anyway. You'd still be too slow, too expensive and too specialised for fleets, roams, or anything really.

These. Are. Not. Good. Ships.

They do nothing new. They can't defend themselves. They are billion ISK glass cannons, and using utility highs in a desperate attempt to do something useful with some completely unbonused modules is not going to help. There is a reason people don't use RRBS fleets anymore. There is a reason people do not fit split weapons to anything bigger than a frigate.
Gypsio III
State War Academy
Caldari State
#42 - 2014-03-15 11:01:39 UTC
OP's ships are capital prey, not predators. Too big, too slow, too vulnerable.
Zan Shiro
Doomheim
#43 - 2014-03-15 11:25:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Zan Shiro
Sigras wrote:
This would make them a true step between capital ship and battleship.



Why is this needed though?


It be the jump drive that is the only real difference between bs (with 1 class exception) and cap. Well that and button for say siege and its only complexity is reorganizing display on bottom of screen to maybe move it so you don't hit it by accident. Stront maybe? FC will tell you that most times and all you have to do is not be the idiot who runs extra cycles when FC says this is last cycle, no more.

Bash/fleet bs works just like a dread in in all other aspects. Target...press f1. NO stepping stone really...after a few ops they are mastered. FC says kill player X in the rev....its pretty much cut and dry here. In range...make player x go boom.


A BS stepping stone to caps already exists beyond this. It be Black Ops, it uses a jump drive. The only big leap from bs to caps really. It gets you as much cyno hopping practice as you want. Hell it be the bs to titan stepping stone with bridging practice too. For less than 1 billion isk even.
Hatsumi Kobayashi
Perkone
Caldari State
#44 - 2014-03-15 13:14:16 UTC
Gypsio III wrote:
OP's ships are capital prey, not predators. Too big, too slow, too vulnerable.


OP is also trying to change a meta he doesn't understand, so that's hardly surprising.

No sig.
Chusa Unholy
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#45 - 2014-03-15 16:20:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Chusa Unholy
Danika Princip wrote:
Chusa Unholy wrote:



I included 3 utility highs with each ship fitting. Each ship of this class has 3 more unbonused weapons available to it, 3 unbonused turrets if, like the Caldari Avesta, it uses missiles as the main weapon or three unbonused launchers if the ship uses turrets as the main weapon. Together with drones, you have some anti-tackler dps--6 RLMs per pair of Berzerkers, for instance, enough to fry an interceptor.

Or you can use those utility highs to spider tank the ships in a larger fleet setting. You would step those ships down to the shorter ranger variants in their class--Blasters, Pulses, Autocannons, Torps--but you'd free up a lot of power grid for remote reps and cap transfer. Spidertanking this ship is a definite possibility. It is not just another billion-isk glass cannon if you use your head.



if your only defence against subcaps it to use a split weapon system and some unbonused launchers, then you do not have a good defence against subcapitals. Split weapons and unbonused launchers are not good things. The paltry DPS you'd get out of them wouldn't really help anyway. You'd still be too slow, too expensive and too specialised for fleets, roams, or anything really.

These. Are. Not. Good. Ships.

They do nothing new. They can't defend themselves. They are billion ISK glass cannons, and using utility highs in a desperate attempt to do something useful with some completely unbonused modules is not going to help. There is a reason people don't use RRBS fleets anymore. There is a reason people do not fit split weapons to anything bigger than a frigate.



You can fit these ships with Tacking Enhancers, Tracking Computers, and Metastasis Adjusters, and now you've doubled their tracking. Because tracking and turret resolution are related quantities, by doing this you've reduced the bite of the turret resolution penalty.

This ship class will be able to hit targets even as small as a frigate at distance (provided the transversal is low enough). If you switch to the higher-tracking shorter ranged versions of each weapon class, you will have even more tracking capability. And if you keep the long ranged versions (artillery, beams, rails, for instance), then you can expand that distance out considerably.

This is a basic problem to all battleships. A Machariel will have a good deal of trouble killing a rookie ship just spinning around it.

Berzerkers have drone bays. THey have drones. They can spider tank. They can mount close in weapons. They can one-hit kill small ships coming directly on from a distance. They can use MWD to maintain separation until they kill ships.

It's really all in how you play the game, how you use them.
Chusa Unholy
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#46 - 2014-03-15 16:52:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Chusa Unholy
Hatsumi Kobayashi wrote:
Gypsio III wrote:
OP's ships are capital prey, not predators. Too big, too slow, too vulnerable.


OP is also trying to change a meta he doesn't understand, so that's hardly surprising.


What's there to really understand? These ships pack a lot of dps, which means more kills on alpha in big fleets and more pressure in smaller fleets.
Hatsumi Kobayashi
Perkone
Caldari State
#47 - 2014-03-15 18:05:14 UTC
And I'm saying you're proposing a change to capital warfare without understanding anything about how capital warfare is conducted, among possibly more glaring flaws in knowing about the game

Chusa Unholy wrote:
The solution is a MWD-driven battleship

Battleship hulls, especially MWDing ones, get torn to shreds by dreadnoughts

Chusa Unholy wrote:
the Berzerker is the epitome of DPS for sub caps--by my calculations, you can reach 2800 to 3500 dps, probably more with creative fittings, with these ships. A Berzerker can break the tank of a Marauder in bastion.

A single rep bastion marauder can tank twice that, I know my single rep Paladin tanks 5.6k and isn't even fit more max reps or incredibly pimp fitted. An Archon tanks more than that "epitome of DPS" per incoming remote rep on a t2 fit (up to 5.3k).

Chusa Unholy wrote:
Most importantly, Berzerkers can break the tank of carriers cycling through triage.

So can other subcaps, so how is that anything special?

Chusa Unholy wrote:
An Archon has 1.24 million EHP and a double-repped fit in Triage can tank 12-15k hp/s. That requires a godawful lot of ships to break in one Alpha, much less on cycle.


Have you ever fitted an Archon? Because your numbers are so way off it's ridiculous. A t2 fit Archon has 3.95m EHP, 4.6m if it gets an Erebus fleet bonus. A t2 fit dualrep triage archon that hasn't refitted to a tank fit yet tanks 21.5k dps.

So yes, I believe you need to go back and learn a little more about cap warfare. In small scale engagements your "new content" brings nothing new to the table as properly fitted and flown subcaps already pose a threat to capitals, and in large scale ones is either going to be brutally ineffective or brokenly abused, with no balance in between. Just like most if not all previous suggestions of an anticap subcap.

No sig.
Chusa Unholy
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#48 - 2014-03-15 18:35:59 UTC
Hatsumi Kobayashi wrote:
And I'm saying you're proposing a change to capital warfare without understanding anything about how capital warfare is conducted, among possibly more glaring flaws in knowing about the game...

Battleship hulls, especially MWDing ones, get torn to shreds by dreadnoughts


Yes, I know. It's a potential point of balance. Otherwise, you can skip the MWD and go for a raw MicroJumpDrive.

Hatsumi Kobayashi wrote:

Chusa Unholy wrote:
the Berzerker is the epitome of DPS for sub caps--by my calculations, you can reach 2800 to 3500 dps, probably more with creative fittings, with these ships. A Berzerker can break the tank of a Marauder in bastion.

A single rep bastion marauder can tank twice that, I know my single rep Paladin tanks 5.6k and isn't even fit more max reps or incredibly pimp fitted. An Archon tanks more than that "epitome of DPS" per incoming remote rep on a t2 fit (up to 5.3k).


And I've seen ancillary-shield boosted Golems that can tank almost the same rate as the Archon. There is leeway with the numbers according to their fittings--perhaps they need to be bonused more for damage, or less, more for rate of fire, or less.

Of course, I wouldn't want a ship put into the game directly from my rough calculations. It should be tested, breveted, and explored in more depth. I appreciate the substantiative response--it's better than the previous literary criticisms of Moby **** I received--but keep in mind that this is a rough draft of the concept.

Hatsumi Kobayashi wrote:


Have you ever fitted an Archon? Because your numbers are so way off it's ridiculous. A t2 fit Archon has 3.95m EHP, 4.6m if it gets an Erebus fleet bonus. A t2 fit dualrep triage archon that hasn't refitted to a tank fit yet tanks 21.5k dps.


I'm going by the numbers pyfa (updated for Rubicon) gives me for the Archon. If those are off for the Archon, take it up with those developers.

Hatsumi Kobayashi wrote:
So yes, I believe you need to go back and learn a little more about cap warfare. In small scale engagements your "new content" brings nothing new to the table as properly fitted and flown subcaps already pose a threat to capitals, and in large scale ones is either going to be brutally ineffective or brokenly abused, with no balance in between. Just like most if not all previous suggestions of an anticap subcap.


Just because sub caps can do something, en masse, does not mean there is no role for a specialist. After all, any generic frigate can tackle but no generic frigate can tackle as well as a specialized interceptor.

I don't doubt that most people will completely goof up on how to use an anti-cap subcap. No such specialist ship is currently in the game. This is a paper concept. If put in the test server, this can be refined.
Anhenka
The New Federation
Sigma Grindset
#49 - 2014-03-15 18:47:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Anhenka
Chusa Unholy wrote:
Just because sub caps can do something, en masse, does not mean there is no role for a specialist. After all, any generic frigate can tackle but no generic frigate can tackle as well as a specialized interceptor.

I don't doubt that most people will completely goof up on how to use an anti-cap subcap. No such specialist ship is currently in the game. This is a paper concept. If put in the test server, this can be refined.

Re·fine: 1. To remove impurities or unwanted elements from (a substance), typically as part of an industrial process.

If we refined the impurities out of this idea, there would be nothing left.

This is a paper concept because it is a ridiculous idea.

Anhenka wrote:
You can't just go taking the very best aspects of each side (Mobility, cheap, easy to produce) + (Massive damage, massive alpha, excellent range) and fuse them together and get a ship that is not fundamentally broken from the start.

That's really the whole deal. That's it. There is no "Well it has these small insignificant downsides, that makes it balanced". There is no middle ground where you can have a large portion of a dreads damage, alpha, and range on any cheap t1 subcap without it being horrifically powerful.

This statement has not changed one bit since I posted it. You still cannot have a cheap, easy to produce, BS minidread capable of putting out thousands of DPS and have it not be completely broken.

That you have only a tenuous grasp on how capitals work in large fights, and absolutely no understanding of game balance at this point is becoming abundantly clear.

Let's ask a few small questions.

1. What are the drawbacks for being able to put over 3k DPS at long range out of a BS, when even a Blaster Vindicator only gets half of that at supershort range?

2. If subcaps can get an anti-capital ship, do capitals not deserve an anti subcap weapon? Something along the ridiculous lines of an 8 large gun capital with 100% per level tracking, 100% per level damage, and 50% per level optimal?
Chusa Unholy
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#50 - 2014-03-15 19:18:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Chusa Unholy
Anhenka wrote:
You can't just go taking the very best aspects of each side (Mobility, cheap, easy to produce) + (Massive damage, massive alpha, excellent range) and fuse them together and get a ship that is not fundamentally broken from the start.

That's really the whole deal. That's it. There is no "Well it has these small insignificant downsides, that makes it balanced". There is no middle ground where you can have a large portion of a dreads damage, alpha, and range on any cheap t1 subcap without it being horrifically powerful.

This statement has not changed one bit since I posted it. You still cannot have a cheap, easy to produce, BS minidread capable of putting out thousands of DPS and have it not be completely broken.

That you have only a tenuous grasp on how capitals work in large fights, and absolutely no understanding of game balance at this point is becoming abundantly clear.

Let's ask a few small questions.

1. What are the drawbacks for being able to put over 3k DPS at long range out of a BS, when even a Blaster Vindicator only gets half of that at supershort range?

2. If subcaps can get an anti-capital ship, do capitals not deserve an anti subcap weapon? Something along the ridiculous lines of an 8 large gun capital with 100% per level tracking, 100% per level damage, and 50% per level optimal?


I've seen Blaster Vindicator fits that can get close to 2000 dps with implants and drones, so the difference is not too great between what a Vindicator can do and what this could do. And the drawbacks are there in the turret resolution signature, which makes it harder to hit, and the range penalty, which reduces the range 25%. It can be lethal in a narrow band (a halo, if you will) around the ship against subcaps--not too very far away and not too near. But the longer range you put on this ship, the less likely you will be able to hit smaller targets and the less damage you'll do to larger targets.

This is definitely not a mini-dread. There's no siege module or jump drive.
Rowells
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#51 - 2014-03-15 19:33:53 UTC
Hatsumi Kobayashi wrote:
Have you ever fitted an Archon? Because your numbers are so way off it's ridiculous. A t2 fit Archon has 3.95m EHP, 4.6m if it gets an Erebus fleet bonus. A t2 fit dualrep triage archon that hasn't refitted to a tank fit yet tanks 21.5k dps.
I'm gonna need to ask where you're getting your numbers because I'm only getting 3.8 mil T2 fit, slave implants, damnation, and Erebus. Which, even in massive fleets in the hundreds of carriers, don't normally (if ever) have.
Hatsumi Kobayashi
Perkone
Caldari State
#52 - 2014-03-15 19:33:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Hatsumi Kobayashi
Chusa Unholy wrote:
This is definitely not a mini-dread. There's no siege module or jump drive.


Cripes

Just, cripes.

Rowells wrote:
Hatsumi Kobayashi wrote:
Have you ever fitted an Archon? Because your numbers are so way off it's ridiculous. A t2 fit Archon has 3.95m EHP, 4.6m if it gets an Erebus fleet bonus. A t2 fit dualrep triage archon that hasn't refitted to a tank fit yet tanks 21.5k dps.
I'm gonna need to ask where you're getting your numbers because I'm only getting 3.8 mil T2 fit, slave implants, damnation, and Erebus. Which, even in massive fleets in the hundreds of carriers, don't normally (if ever) have.


EANM RAH DCU one of each t2 hardener set of trimarks heat.

No sig.
Anhenka
The New Federation
Sigma Grindset
#53 - 2014-03-15 19:34:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Anhenka
Chusa Unholy wrote:

I've seen Blaster Vindicator fits that can get close to 2000 dps with implants and drones, so the difference is not too great between what a Vindicator can do and what this could do. And the drawbacks are there in the turret resolution signature, which makes it harder to hit, and the range penalty, which reduces the range 25%. It can be lethal in a narrow band (a halo, if you will) around the ship against subcaps--not too very far away and not too near. But the longer range you put on this ship, the less likely you will be able to hit smaller targets and the less damage you'll do to larger targets.

This is definitely not a mini-dread. There's no siege module or jump drive.

Not being restricted to jump travel, and no needing to siege are total positives, you do understand?

Drawbacks are completely insufficient. 75% more than the currently best dps ship (And that 2k number includes faction magstabs, implants, faction ammo, faction ship, and overheating), while these could deal that 3k+ damage at dozens of times further then said 2 Billion isk Vindication, and still being able to deal effective damage to other BS's, all on a cheap hull is crazy.

When a ship is intended to kill capitals, a large gun resolution is not an issue. It's not a drawback worthy of any consideration. Especially when with a few tracking comps and a few target painters, it would be perfectly capable of blapping subcaps with ease.

It's like saying a car is not airtight, so because it's not usable underwater, that's a drawback to using it on land.
Rowells
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#54 - 2014-03-15 19:46:14 UTC
Hatsumi Kobayashi wrote:

EANM RAH DCU one of each t2 hardener set of trimarks heat.

Ah, ok. I always forgetting the overheat
Chusa Unholy
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#55 - 2014-03-15 19:49:37 UTC
Anhenka wrote:

Not being restricted to jump travel, and no needing to siege are total positives, you do understand?


Differences are different.

Anhenka wrote:
Drawbacks are completely insufficient. 75% more than the currently best dps ship (And that 2k number includes faction magstabs, faction ammo, faction ship, and overheating), while these could deal that 3k+ damage at dozens of times further then said 1.5-2 Billion isk Vindication, and still being able to deal effective damage to other BS's, all on a cheap hull is crazy.

When a ship is intended to kill capitals, a large gun resolution is not an issue. It's not a drawback worthy of any consideration. Especially when with a few tracking comps and a few target painters, it would be perfectly capable of blapping subcaps with ease.


So is the hull too cheap or too expensive? I think the troll is just trolling, but I'm willing to play this out for the benefit of others.

Anyways, a larger turret signature resolution can cause this ship to hit other battleships with as much dps as any other battleship, but this will go up and down a spectrum depending on the conditions, from battlecruiser dps to much greater.

Funny how this ship has suddenly gone from utterly defenseless against subcaps to being a subcap killer par excellence. Consistency, my friends, is not just a river in Egypt.
Anhenka
The New Federation
Sigma Grindset
#56 - 2014-03-15 20:02:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Anhenka
Chusa Unholy wrote:

Differences are different.

A Jove ship with 5 DD's, unbreakable cloaking, and ammoless guns that deal 500k a shot are different too. Different means literally nothing.

Chusa Unholy wrote:

So is the hull too cheap or too expensive? I think the troll is just trolling, but I'm willing to play this out for the benefit of others.

Anyways, a larger turret signature resolution can cause this ship to hit other battleships with as much dps as any other battleship, but this will go up and down a spectrum depending on the conditions, from battlecruiser dps to much greater.

Funny how this ship has suddenly gone from utterly defenseless against subcaps to being a subcap killer par excellence. Consistency, my friends, is not just a river in Egypt.


I have never argued that they are poor vs subcaps. Those were the words of other fools in here. These would be the new blapdread, except better in nearly every way.

A 400% bonus to sig resolution still means that large railguns still have a considerably better sig resolution than even the best short range dreadnaught weapons, but with double the tracking of even the short range dread weapons.

The proposed ship does around a third of a dread DPS, half the alpha, but tracks over twice as fast, has a better gun sig resolution, is far far cheaper, is mobile, has low align time compared to dread, does not need to sit still to deal damage, and can fire while aligned.

For the combination of abilities, I'd say it would need to be priced at around 1.5-1.75 bil hullprice. With t2 construction and the appropriately low insurance return.
Chusa Unholy
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#57 - 2014-03-15 20:37:23 UTC
Anhenka wrote:


I have never argued that they are poor vs subcaps. Those were the words of other fools in here. These would be the new blapdread, except better in nearly every way.

A 400% bonus to sig resolution still means that large railguns still have a considerably better sig resolution than even the best short range dreadnaught weapons, but with double the tracking of even the short range dread weapons.

The proposed ship does around a third of a dread DPS, half the alpha, but tracks over twice as fast, has a better gun sig resolution, is far far cheaper, is mobile, has low align time compared to dread, does not need to sit still to deal damage, and can fire while aligned.

For the combination of abilities, I'd say it would need to be priced at around 1.5-1.75 bil hullprice. With t2 construction and the appropriately low insurance return.


I don't know about far cheaper. I see many dreadnoughts for sale on Eve Central for 2 billion isk, probably twice the price of this hull. I am comfortable having this particular ship overpriced at about 1 billion isk, about the same price as a carrier, if it can accomplish a mission underserved by the current ships in Eve.

It is too hard for me to argue one way or another whether it would need important nerfs or buffs at this point without seeing the ship concept in action. Perhaps the sig resolution nerf should be 500% (the same as a Dread) and perhaps the damage modifier should be 500%+ instead of 375% (+), or much lower. That will depend on how the realized ship actually functions.

Perhaps you all are right. Perhaps this is a complete waste of time. But it would make a good experiment. Besides, even if it is just relegated to a high-sec POS basher, that also is a new concept that is necessary in the post-Rubicon Eve universe. But if I'm right, this would be an exciting addition to fleets EVE-wide.
Damien White
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#58 - 2014-03-15 22:04:05 UTC
Wow, those ships look awfull and I mean realy, realy, realy awfull.


Dont get me wrong, I think your idea is as stupid as the other threads regarding BS/Marauder like Ships for Capital Combat.

Still, this is taking the whole problem to a new level but may actually solve the problem of structure shooting. But it will not solve the Capital Warfare.

97% of girls would die if Justin Bieber were about to jump off a cliff. Post this in your sig if you`re part of the 3% yelling,

"DO A BARREL ROLL!"
Chusa Unholy
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#59 - 2014-03-15 23:22:49 UTC
Damien White wrote:

Still, this is taking the whole problem to a new level but may actually solve the problem of structure shooting. But it will not solve the Capital Warfare.


Well, it is my pleasure to admit I have no idea what any of that means, else I might be somewhat offended.

Btw, how do you "solve" a warfare? Thank God I didn't attempt that. Sounds complicated.
Damien White
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#60 - 2014-03-15 23:24:58 UTC
Realy?

You try to present a solution to a problem you dont understand? Wow... Just wow...

97% of girls would die if Justin Bieber were about to jump off a cliff. Post this in your sig if you`re part of the 3% yelling,

"DO A BARREL ROLL!"