Player Features and Ideas Discussion

Thought these ships were supposed to deal super low damage to anything lower than a capital, and be nearly useless when firing at a cruiser. Now they are being used to break sig tanking chain repping logistics? What the hell happened?

As to why not Rooks, it's because a few Tempests can **** up Rooks in short order. ECM only works when you have them all jammed. 50 rooks vs 50 Pests, even 5 unjammed Pests will start popping Rooks like flies.

And once one pops, then that's once more to join the rapidly accelerating slaughter.

Rooks are not a counter for anything once you get past a few people vs a few people fights.


I'm more scared of a poorly piloted Ishtar than I am of a max skill Thanatos spewing 10-15 fighters at me.

That's how terrible fighters are. So incredibly bad. They are not Subcaps weapons, or Anti Cap weapons, they are just plain bad. Plastic Cheese Grater bad.

My bad, did I just hear the phrase "guerrila warefare" used in conjunction with ships that need a broadcasted cyno to enter, need to recharge all their cap to leave, and dreads which have to spend 5 minutes sitting in one place to do anything?

And can all be pinned down for several minutes at a time by a 50 mil isk dictor?

One does not "Guerrila warfare" with a tank you know.


Also, nobody cares about cap ship builder. The people who are flying them are honestly the only ones that matter.

Ah, it's good to see that you understand that a subcap should be used to counter a subcap. Now we just need to work on getting you to understand that the counter for caps are other caps. But this is a good start!

P.S: Nueting Tempests are a good hard counters for smaller groups of caps, but are a completely **** counter for other Nueting Tempest.

Buffer fit capless weapons, yeaaah? Better neut it.

Still no explained reason of WHY subcaps deserve these Jesus tier super BS's capable of breaking through capitals like they were made of cardboard.

You do understand that whaling boats were not actually like the popularized image of Captain Ahab standing in a rowboat with a spear do you?

Whaling boats are big. Typically as large or larger than the whales they are hunting, especially before we could pack 2k horsepower into a gas fueled engine. Had to tow the whale back after all.

You know they used to use small row boats to get in close and harpoon the whales, then have larger ship come pick it up to be used.

Huh. Odd. It's almost like a super specialized ships designed for massive amounts of local repping can't be broken by a few t1 BS without neuts. Color me ******* surprised.

Oddly enough, I don't see anyone else considering this a problem.

And you never plan on a situation like a small BS gang vs a couple caps. Rare as hens teeth occurrence.

You look at your idea and go "Now how can this be abused if I stick 500 of them in once place?"

And the answer is "Very Easily". With 2k DPS against a capital, and lets call it a 5 second cycle time, 125 of these will onceshot a carrier every 5 seconds.

A full fleet will kill a capital every 3 seconds or so.

And the CFC has fielded over 6 full 256 man fleets before.
Superpower subcaps get ridiculous at the economy of scale that exists in nullsec Sovwar.

Try 66%
Last I checked the missiles i can launch by hand and those launched from a plane were very, very different.

Why does everyone try to make the cap-counter DPS?

Why not ewar? It's more tactical and doesn't scale linearly, avoiding the N+1 escalation effect.

Some kind of special mechanic available only to BS size disruption ships that allows them to break through capital ewar immunity in some limited fashion. Such that a coordinated gang could make a capital ship vulnerable to subcaps that it usually isn't.

I included 3 utility highs with each ship fitting. Each ship of this class has 3 more unbonused weapons available to it, 3 unbonused turrets if, like the Caldari Avesta, it uses missiles as the main weapon or three unbonused launchers if the ship uses turrets as the main weapon. Together with drones, you have some anti-tackler dps--6 RLMs per pair of Berzerkers, for instance, enough to fry an interceptor.

Or you can use those utility highs to spider tank the ships in a larger fleet setting. You would step those ships down to the shorter ranger variants in their class--Blasters, Pulses, Autocannons, Torps--but you'd free up a lot of power grid for remote reps and cap transfer. Spidertanking this ship is a definite possibility. It is not just another billion-isk glass cannon if you use your head.

So you want all the pluses of being a subcap, including price, but want them to be able to mount capital class weapons...

This entire thread hinges on the odd fantasy that there needs to be a ship halfway between a BS and a dread.

As if a frig was black, and a titan white, and all the shades of grey in the middle were a good idea.

Capital. Subcapital. They may share the same word root, but they are two entirely different classes of ships.

You can't just go taking the very best aspects of each side (Mobility, cheap, easy to produce) + (Massive damage, massive alpha, excellent range) and fuse them together and get a ship that is not fundamentally broken from the start.

That's really the whole deal. That's it. There is no "Well it has these small insignificant downsides, that makes it balanced". There is no middle ground where you can have a large portion of a dreads damage, alpha, and range on any cheap t1 subcap without it being horrifically powerful.