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[Serious Discussion] This game's community leaves much to be desired

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Dr0000 Maulerant
Union Nanide and Tooling
#61 - 2014-03-14 14:25:05 UTC
Malcanis wrote:


Generally EVE players can be relied on to say that they're not against piracy "in principle" or piracy "in its place"; they're only opposed to "the kind of piracy that affects me".


I disagree, having never actually run into a bumper or other hi-sec shenanigans I find some of their practices very distasteful.

The kind of piracy I do run into (viator slayers) I greatly approve of.

Tell me again about how every playstyle you dont engage in "doesn't require any effort" and everyone who does it needs to die in a fire. Be sure to mention about how you tried it once but it was too easy/boring/ethnic-homophobic slur. 

Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#62 - 2014-03-14 14:31:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Kyperion wrote:
My problem is with the New Order types, that take ganking and turn it into a cyber-cult.
You can thank CCP for that, when the New Order was first started James wasn't trying to sell permits, he was bumping people because they were afk, and because he could. CCP stepped in and told him that this modus operandi wasn't acceptable, therefore James had a discussion with them about what was and what was not acceptable, it turns out that doing it with a profit motive was acceptable to CCP, and thus the New Order was born.

Turning it into a quasi religious cult was a stroke of genius, people who raged hard when ganked raged even harder when confronted with gankers preaching quasi religious dictats that make the lore of the Amarr Empire look like a childrens book.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack

Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#63 - 2014-03-14 15:10:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
There are players that will go to great lengths to help other players. They are very common throughout EVE.

There are players that enjoy yanking the chain of players that take the game WAY too seriously. To be blunt, NOBODY can make you sing a silly song on TS if you don't really want to.

And yes, there are those that go a bit too far. Welcome to the internet.

As for those that go for sympathy and claim to be inclined to commit suicide if you kill their ship in EVE... wow. It's hard NOT to make fun of their ridiculously obvious and overblown pity plea. However one good thing that came out of that situation is that now that joke would be followed by contacting CCP so that they can arrange to have the authorities drop by the persons home to "have a talk with them to assess their mental stability".

Since CCP stated this was their policy from now on, I've noticed the "If I lose this Nightmare I'll kill myself" nonsense has dropped off considerably.

Funny how that works.

You should probably make a clear distinction between the realities of any online community and those of EVE online, as you are attributing issue to EVE that are prevalent in any online community.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.

Salvos Rhoska
#64 - 2014-03-14 15:13:20 UTC
Indeed, threatening ones own suicide inorder to blackmail people into doing what you want, is incredibly unacceptable.

Benny Ohu
Chaotic Tranquility
#65 - 2014-03-14 15:15:29 UTC
that's been policy for a long time, and it's a good one

but if i petition the GMs for a pizza, do they send one? noooooo X
RomeStar
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#66 - 2014-03-14 15:32:03 UTC
Wall of Text ......I am assuming you are quitting since I didnt bother reading the novel if so may I have your stuff please.

Signatured removed, CCP Phantom

Notorious Fellon
#67 - 2014-03-14 15:49:06 UTC
Benny Ohu wrote:
that's been policy for a long time, and it's a good one

but if i petition the GMs for a pizza, do they send one? noooooo X



This belongs in Features and Ideas. You have my support on this suggestion.

Crime, it is not a "career", it is a lifestyle.

embrel
BamBam Inc.
#68 - 2014-03-14 16:59:03 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:


Much.
Its abhorrent to even think or attempt otherwise, and yet that is exactly what this thread is trying to defend.

Stop trying to dictate how others live their lives and how they choose to conduct themselves.


Usually a society sets some rules.
In Eve most rules we commonly accept IRL don't apply.
It seems natural that this leads to frustration on part of some.
Especially, as some very basic rules like: "you don't kick babies in the teeth in order to get their candy" don't apply neither.

I am in Eve coz I like the risky environment, but cannot fathom the fun some seem to have kicking babies teeth.
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#69 - 2014-03-14 17:21:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
embrel wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:


Much.
Its abhorrent to even think or attempt otherwise, and yet that is exactly what this thread is trying to defend.

Stop trying to dictate how others live their lives and how they choose to conduct themselves.


Usually a society sets some rules.
In Eve most rules we commonly accept IRL don't apply.
It seems natural that this leads to frustration on part of some.
Especially, as some very basic rules like: "you don't kick babies in the teeth in order to get their candy" don't apply neither.

I am in Eve coz I like the risky environment, but cannot fathom the fun some seem to have kicking babies teeth.

There are no babies in Eve, therefore nobody is kicking babies in the teeth, which don't appear for a few months btw, to steal their candy. The nearest equivalent is newbies, and to be honest they have nothing worth stealing unless they decided to try the P2W route and purchase their way up the foodchain, which invariably ends in disillusionment and tears for them, and a healthy profit for others.

Everyone who plays Eve has the same access to exactly the same mechanics and items as everybody else. People choose to not use them to protect themselves, and then whine when others use them to relieve them of their stuff..

As you rightly suggest, due to the context and premise of Eve the real life rules don't apply, many of us accept that and play accordingly, the problem comes when people try to enforce out of context real life rules to a game where they generally don't apply.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack

embrel
BamBam Inc.
#70 - 2014-03-14 17:30:09 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
embrel wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:


Much.
Its abhorrent to even think or attempt otherwise, and yet that is exactly what this thread is trying to defend.

Stop trying to dictate how others live their lives and how they choose to conduct themselves.


Usually a society sets some rules.
In Eve most rules we commonly accept IRL don't apply.
It seems natural that this leads to frustration on part of some.
Especially, as some very basic rules like: "you don't kick babies in the teeth in order to get their candy" don't apply neither.

I am in Eve coz I like the risky environment, but cannot fathom the fun some seem to have kicking babies teeth.

There are no babies in Eve, therefore nobody is kicking babies in the teeth, which don't appear for a few months btw, to steal their candy. The nearest equivalent is newbies, and to be honest they have nothing worth stealing unless they decided to try the P2W route and purchase their way up the foodchain, which invariably ends in disillusionment and tears for them, and a healthy profit for others.

Everyone who plays Eve has the same access to exactly the same mechanics and items as everybody else. People choose to not use them to protect themselves, and then whine when others use them to relieve them of their stuff..

As you rightly suggest, due to the context and premise of Eve the real life rules don't apply, many of us accept that and play accordingly, the problem comes when people try to enforce out of context real life rules to a game where they generally don't apply.


You got me with the teeth. However, some already have one at birth.

And I'd assume it already happened that someone kicked even though there were no candies at all. As otherwise starter systems would not need special rules.

Tbh I didn't have an issue with ganking im Eve. My losses are mostly to me being stupid or a graphic driver crash (****), so that the whole issue actually looks avoidable to me.
mechtech
Ice Liberation Army
#71 - 2014-03-14 17:39:02 UTC
I really don't think it used to be so bad, honestly. I think all of this has morphed out of a bored 0.0 culture What?, and has really gotten worse in recent years.

I have no problem with ganking, corp scamming, ponzis, or any of that, but the childish "tear harvesting" and such really is hugely obnoxious. Hmm, I guess I agree with your post.
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#72 - 2014-03-14 17:39:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
embrel wrote:

You got me with the teeth. However, some already have one at birth.
P

Quote:
And I'd assume it already happened that someone kicked even though there were no candies at all. As otherwise starter systems would not need special rules.
Some people probably padded their killboards a bit with newbies in the past, I remember a discussion with a GM about what you could and could not do to newbies in starter systems and certain SoE Arc systems, Arnon IIRC.

Quote:
Tbh I didn't have an issue with ganking im Eve. My losses are mostly to me being stupid or a graphic driver crash (****), so that the whole issue actually looks avoidable to me.
There you have it in a nutshell, ganks, and scams, are fairly trivial to avoid unless you get caught by a graphics driver crash (looks at AMD, sort it out) or do something stupid, the problem is that people don't like to admit to having done something stupid. Admitting that you've done something stupid in Eve raises you far above the ones that blame everybody else for their own stupidity.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack

E-2C Hawkeye
State War Academy
Caldari State
#73 - 2014-03-14 17:52:35 UTC
Marvin Shields wrote:
Making my first post on the forums ever, so bear with me here...

I'll admit I have my faults, but seeing someone comment on a Reddit post, and the massive sh*tstorm that followed, got me thinking...

This is a game where we cannot die for good, and where the rules are pretty much removed, which gives us a lot of "creative" freedom.

Why is all of that creativity and freedom being used to harass new players? I just don't understand it.

Because a bully never picks on somone that they think could fight back and win. This is why there are so many gankers in hi-sec. Gankers prey on players trained and fitted for pve not pvp who can only hope to survive the gank much less fight back.

Others do it for the laughs while some consider ganking a challenge.....not from the fight itself but from the prep and effort that goes into it.

There really is no one right answer here.
E-2C Hawkeye
State War Academy
Caldari State
#74 - 2014-03-14 17:55:13 UTC
mechtech wrote:
I really don't think it used to be so bad, honestly. I think all of this has morphed out of a bored 0.0 culture What?, and has really gotten worse in recent years.

I have no problem with ganking, corp scamming, ponzis, or any of that, but the childish "tear harvesting" and such really is hugely obnoxious. Hmm, I guess I agree with your post.


Agree that the blue-sec culture has generated more ganking
Haiiro Aurgnet
Celestial Phoenix Industries
#75 - 2014-03-14 17:59:31 UTC
While I agree with you fully, OP, this is a foolhardy campaign. Sadly you aren't going to bring around as social revolution in eve because it is, as you say, a place where people escape to to release their darkest, meanest sides of themselves. Many people can be nice IRL, but build up a lot of frustration- so they take it out on people in eve. Sadly, there is no way to change this. ever. I WANT this game to have less violent, sadistic, sociopathic people, but, it will never happen. Because in today's day and age, people use the "its just a game" excuse to act like trash. and they're right in a sense. It is just a game. That being said, I've met some of the most amazing people through eve. One of my really good friends that I talk to every day now I met through this game. The first corp to take me in was so warm and inviting. the CEO loved me and I became a director within months because we worked hard together for the betterment of our corp as a whole- and times were great. These people DO exist, they're just the quiet ones in the crowd, and you have to search pretty hard for them

tl;dr people online suck, they always will suck. but there are still good people, theyre just quiet.
Jamwara DelCalicoe Ashley
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#76 - 2014-03-14 18:01:33 UTC
It only seems like harassment to newer players because they have not yet HTFU'ed yet
Benny Ohu
Chaotic Tranquility
#77 - 2014-03-14 18:06:35 UTC
mechtech wrote:
I have no problem with ganking, corp scamming, ponzis, or any of that, but the childish "tear harvesting" and such really is hugely obnoxious. Hmm, I guess I agree with your post.

'tear harvesting' through accepted legitimate gameplay (scamming, awoxing, extortion, ganking, 'bad guy' roleplaying etc) is fine

'tear harvesting' through actual harassment/trolling/griefing is not

the first is a player massively (hilariously) overreacting to another players' legitimate actions ingame. the 'harvester' is not doing anything immoral

and it has nothing to do with 'nullsec culture', this is eve online
Dersen Lowery
The Scope
#78 - 2014-03-14 18:12:52 UTC
Tippia wrote:
They somehow miss that this is a full-PvP multiplayer sandbox, and assume that it will work exactly the same as a PvE-centric themepark game, and when reality intrudes on them, it's a rude awakening. This is not a problem with the game or its players — it's a problem with those preconceived notions.


It's a problem with the game to the extent that the game doesn't communicate this. Sure, there's no getting through to some people, but CCP need to deal with the fact that there are huge, long-established MMOs that set and reinforce those notions, and the sooner newcomers to EVE are assured that "be the villain" doesn't mean "roll Horde," the better. Also, "dark Universe" doesn't mean a grimdark color palette and large spikes sticking out of all the mobs.

"Read the EULA" is a cop-out. It's not a tutorial, and anyway, it's (an attempt at) a legal contract, so the people who should be reading them for us are contract lawyers that we retain, and--quick show of hands--who did that when they launched EVE for the first time? (Of those who raised their hands, how many of you are contract lawyers, or are married or closely related to contract lawyers?) Right.

OP is correct that there are no mechanical issues involved here. There are things that CCP could do better as far as getting information out to new players, and there is Gabriel's G.I.F.T. (NSFW)--which also shows that the phenomenon is much larger than EVE.

Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.

I voted in CSM X!

Jenn aSide
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#79 - 2014-03-14 18:35:48 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:

There are no babies in Eve, therefore nobody is kicking babies in the teeth, which don't appear for a few months btw, to steal their candy. The nearest equivalent is newbies, and to be honest they have nothing worth stealing unless they decided to try the P2W route and purchase their way up the foodchain, which invariably ends in disillusionment and tears for them, and a healthy profit for others.

Everyone who plays Eve has the same access to exactly the same mechanics and items as everybody else. People choose to not use them to protect themselves, and then whine when others use them to relieve them of their stuff..

As you rightly suggest, due to the context and premise of Eve the real life rules don't apply, many of us accept that and play accordingly, the problem comes when people try to enforce out of context real life rules to a game where they generally don't apply.


Well said. I play EVE because (beyond the space ships and guns, which I love) it's a game for adults unlike most MMOs and other games. ANY adult game is going to have an adult community and that community is going to rough and blunt.

What I simply don't get is why people would play a game notorious (since it's birth) for the kinds of things that these people are complaining about. WTF is wrong with them, why not play all the other theme park MMOs that not only ban you for in game 'griefing' but will also ban your game account for too many forum infractions.

If I want to ride roller coasters I go to Six Flags and if I want to see naked women I go to a strip club. But I don't go to strip clubs and complain about the lack of roller coasters nor do I go to six flags demaning lapdances (though there was this one time my senior year that we went to six flags and.....well ,ya'll don't wanna hear about that right now I guess but it was awesome Twisted ).

I just think that it's so stupid to come into a notorious game and expect people to follow some silly, arbitrary real life morality.

Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#80 - 2014-03-14 18:39:30 UTC

To be frank, I think this Op is throwing out the barrel of apples because of a few bad ones. There are simply terrible expectations that he keeps perpetrating, and that is a major issue.

Let's take a good look at the examples of bad behavior he brought up:

♦ "jihad fleets" and Hulkageddon -- This is EXCELLENT content, and I can't fathom why you'd be upset about it. These are typically well publicized events, where news of the even spreads rapidly to all corners of the universe. It makes waves in the markets, booming the economy. It creates a blatant hunter-prey atmosphere, where everyone can chose a side or get out of the way. A can't fathom how you'd find these "unfair" or in poor spirits. Burn Jita, Hulkageddon, Ice interdictions, even Jame's Code crew. These are hurdles, made by players, that you simply have to overcome if you wish to play in their sphere.

♦ Destiny: I live in Syndicate, and have had a lot of interaction with GEEMU there. Let me give you some insight into how we approach GEEMU. When you live in nullsec, you must expect combat every single time you undock. He doesn't get a free pass just because he is new to the game or nullsec. At the same time, I know many FCs that don't primary Destiny's character the moment our fleets crash. I know many pilots that let GEEMU pods and/or noobships fly through the area when heading to their home system. I know several groups that "team up" with them so they can defeat a tactically superior force. The truth is, the game is harsh, especially when you move to nullsec 2 days after creating a character, before you have a clue about game mechanics. I don't know how Destiny feels he's been treated, but he's been welcomed to the game.

♦ The Mittani: The Mittani crossed the line at an Alliance Leader Panel, where the historic goal of the panel was to outdo other alliances, usually by using insults and "shocking" commentary. He was called out for crossing the line by a huge portion of the community, was kicked of the CSM, and given a temp ban from game. As for the audience reaction, he didn't cross the line until the end of the session when he revealed the name of the pilot who sent such a dastardly evemail.

You are somewhat right, as there are many PLAYERS in this game that are just bad for the gaming environment.
To help address those bad elements, we should have some guildlines on acceptable behavior, because there is a decent portion of the playerbase that regularly crosses the line. But your misplaced "white knight" post fails to even remotely address it!

What is acceptable?
-- Communicating RL threats to a fellow player because they blew up your starship, or conned you out of isk. That is unacceptable behavior; why didnt you call them out?

-- Suggesting you may commit suicide or do RL harm to yourself because someone is interfering with your game play. That is unacceptable behavior, why didn't you call them out?

-- Being so emotionally volatile that you lash out when someone again, interferes with your game play. That's unacceptable behavior, why didn't you call them out?

-- Being so desperate for attention, that you make a fool of yourself, sending nude pics to other players or say incriminating things. That's unacceptable behavior, why didn't you call them out?

You see, a healthy player understands that this is a GAME. They understand that attacking their character is different than attacking their PERSONS. Everyone makes mistakes, everyone occasionally gets outplayed, but only the unhealthy members go to these unacceptable extremes. It many ways, it is our social obligation to let them know they are crossing the line, as that is how we protect the integrity of our gaming atmosphere. I will admit some people revel in encouraging them to cross the line and broadcasting to the world when they do, but that rarely harms the healthy members of our gaming society.

PS: who cares about the comments of some reditors? That's a statement about redit, not about EvE.