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PI Taxes?

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Cloora
APEX Unlimited
APEX Conglomerate
#81 - 2011-11-29 22:07:20 UTC
All you whiners are idiots. As someone who lives in low sec and has 4 characters with 5-6 planets each, I applaud and welcome these changes. We are going to siege up our new buffed T2 siege module dreads and pop us some customs offices and set up our own.

All you people that think random gankers can take out a POCO are smoking crack. They have 10 million shield hp.

This is the best thing to happen to small alliances. Large alliances won't drop thier newly nerfed supers on low sec POCOs that they don't care about. More PVP is good. This change is good. Us non sov holding corps and alliances now have something to fight over.

http://www.altaholics.blogspot.com
Jita Alt666
#82 - 2011-11-29 22:09:08 UTC
CCP Nullarbor wrote:
Confirming that the base prices were adjusted as well as default tax rates for Concord and Interbus customs offices. The latest and best information is available here:

http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/CustomsOffice



Thank you for implementing a solid system. This is a nice example of risk being rewarded and risk aversion being shunned.
Ptraci
3 R Corporation
#83 - 2011-11-29 22:10:06 UTC
Cloora wrote:

All you people that think random gankers can take out a POCO are smoking crack. They have 10 million shield hp.



So slightly less than a caldari small tower? And no RESISTS? YUMMM. 10 million hp is nothing.
Famble
Three's a Crowd
#84 - 2011-11-29 22:11:06 UTC
Near as I can tell, my costs will go up n%. As such, my prices will go up to match and I'm in the same profit boat as before.

The only change to my routine is that I'll simply hold off putting my goods on market for a few months till I see just how high the new price will be.

It's no different than real life, you tax a business more, they simply pass their increased costs on to the consumer. In the end, nothing changes for them(me).

If anyone ever looks at you and says,_ "Hold my beer, watch this,"_  you're probably going to want to pay attention.
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#85 - 2011-11-29 22:13:38 UTC
K Suri wrote:
Ptraci wrote:
Mara Tessidar wrote:
I'm sorry, sometimes I have trouble containing my evil glee at your realization that PI is no longer a free ISK printer in highsec and may actually require effort and risk to turn a much higher profit.


No, you haven't stopped to think about what this means for null sec. AFAIK customs offices can be popped by anyone sov or no sov. Prepare to lose all your POS fuel to your enemies via raids.

God forbid. Goons will now have to fight to keep their free isk printer in nullsec alive.

What, there's been a change to our tech?

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Mara Tessidar
Perkone
Caldari State
#86 - 2011-11-29 22:13:57 UTC
Cloora wrote:
All you people that think random gankers can take out a POCO are smoking crack. They have 10 million shield hp.


Goons goons goons
Jita Alt666
#87 - 2011-11-29 22:14:29 UTC
Ptraci wrote:
Mara Tessidar wrote:
I'm sorry, sometimes I have trouble containing my evil glee at your realization that PI is no longer a free ISK printer in highsec and may actually require effort and risk to turn a much higher profit.


No, you haven't stopped to think about what this means for null sec. AFAIK customs offices can be popped by anyone sov or no sov. Prepare to lose all your POS fuel to your enemies via raids.


You have never flown in a "raid" have you? 10mil SP that regens at 1000hp/ps that has a reinforce timer that is set up by the owner is a rather large "raid".

Time for you to learn how to play with others me thinks.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#88 - 2011-11-29 22:14:46 UTC
Jita Alt666 wrote:
CCP Nullarbor wrote:
Confirming that the base prices were adjusted as well as default tax rates for Concord and Interbus customs offices. The latest and best information is available here:

http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/CustomsOffice



Thank you for implementing a solid system. This is a nice example of risk being rewarded and risk aversion being shunned.

Unless you own a POS is lowsec. Risk you always had AND higher operating cost. Win/win right?
Cloora
APEX Unlimited
APEX Conglomerate
#89 - 2011-11-29 22:15:13 UTC
Ptraci wrote:
Cloora wrote:

All you people that think random gankers can take out a POCO are smoking crack. They have 10 million shield hp.



So slightly less than a caldari small tower? And no RESISTS? YUMMM. 10 million hp is nothing.



Come take out my POCOs then if you think it's nothing.

http://www.altaholics.blogspot.com
Zimmy Zeta
Perkone
Caldari State
#90 - 2011-11-29 22:16:10 UTC
Consequence of that new mechanism will be that small indy corps can no longer survive on their own (at least if they are into t2 production).

Oh.

Somehow, I am happy now.

Really happy.

The old bitterness is finally back.

Welcome back, old friend, missed you so much.....Ugh

I'd like to apologize for the poor quality of the post above and sincerely hope you didn't waste your time reading it. Yes, I do feel bad about it.
Anela Cistine
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#91 - 2011-11-29 22:17:17 UTC
Linka Romanov wrote:

Please, enlighten me as to why anyone would bother with deploying a POCO when the impact of taxes on their bottom line was somewhere in the neighborhood of one half of one percent of their profits? The new tax rates will get priced into PI goods, or competition from low sec/nullsec tax havens will put highsec PI'ers out of business.


What tax havens? Goonswarm intends to charge 15% and we're tech rich. Cry Tiny corps of less then a dozen close friends might go with 0%, but I doubt many medium or large ones will be charging less than the 10% you'll be paying in highsec.


With good skills you can put down two extractor control units and some factories, and go from extraction to P2 all on one planet. This will be more profitable now than shipping P1s around to dedicated factory planets. I hope you like reconfiguring all your extraction planets.

Highsec factory planets aren't dead, they just aren't that good for P2s anymore. P3s and P4 will likely still require factory planets and the associated extra tax costs of exporting, importing and then re-exporting. Turning P2s into P3s and P4s will be cheaper to do in highsec than in goonspace, or anywhere with an Interbus CO.
Jita Alt666
#92 - 2011-11-29 22:19:28 UTC
Mara Tessidar wrote:
Cloora wrote:
All you people that think random gankers can take out a POCO are smoking crack. They have 10 million shield hp.


Goons goons goons


Average planet count per system: 12
Number of low sec/null sec systems in Eve Online: 5200 (guestimate - can't remember from memory o.0)

Good luck with that. Time for some blue balling.
Mara Tessidar
Perkone
Caldari State
#93 - 2011-11-29 22:19:43 UTC
Anela you forgot to mention the 1% tax haven planets for factories. Sup pubbies.
Linka Romanov
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#94 - 2011-11-29 22:22:12 UTC
Anela Cistine wrote:
Linka Romanov wrote:

Please, enlighten me as to why anyone would bother with deploying a POCO when the impact of taxes on their bottom line was somewhere in the neighborhood of one half of one percent of their profits? The new tax rates will get priced into PI goods, or competition from low sec/nullsec tax havens will put highsec PI'ers out of business.


What tax havens? Goonswarm intends to charge 15% and we're tech rich. Cry Tiny corps of less then a dozen close friends might go with 0%, but I doubt many medium or large ones will be charging less than the 10% you'll be paying in highsec.


With good skills you can put down two extractor control units and some factories, and go from extraction to P2 all on one planet. This will be more profitable now than shipping P1s around to dedicated factory planets. I hope you like reconfiguring all your extraction planets.

Highsec factory planets aren't dead, they just aren't that good for P2s anymore. P3s and P4 will likely still require factory planets and the associated extra tax costs of exporting, importing and then re-exporting. Turning P2s into P3s and P4s will be cheaper to do in highsec than in goonspace, or anywhere with an Interbus CO.


Highsec is actually 20% now. Plus lowsec and nullsec planets are far more resource-rich than their highsec counterparts. Even a 25% difference in the tax burden (15% vs. 20%) is likely to have a dramatic effect on the user's bottom line, because the tax burden is the main "cost" of running a planet that you don't have to buy factory inputs for.
Ptraci
3 R Corporation
#95 - 2011-11-29 22:23:07 UTC
Cloora wrote:


Come take out my POCOs then if you think it's nothing.


I'm sure someone will. Small tower evictions happen all the time, and it doesn't take supercaps to do it.
Kietay Ayari
Caldari State
#96 - 2011-11-29 22:23:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Kietay Ayari
Tanya Powers wrote:
Kietay Ayari wrote:
This really surprised me too. I was able to make around 500-800m a month in highsec doing production only but now it will be closer to 100-300 o_o Kind of not really worth it anymore. People say the prices might go up and that could be true, but if the prices go up all around that does not help the production only people. The ratios between buying and selling will still be the same probably D:



Thing is that less offer will be available, more iskies you'll get from what you do.

The more taxes, replacement cost/fuel you have to consider on base prices the more expensive they will get but, it's not an option. Wait a littel bit, keep producing your stuff and leave it on your hangars, prices will probably become interesting in a few days/weeks


D: You don't understand, I buy the base materials and process them, so if prices go up it does not help me. I make profit on the price difference between lower and higher end goods. So unless higher end goods go up a lot more than lower end goods it won't matter for my type of PI. Judging from the planets around Jita there are a lot of other people doing pure production as well.

Oh well! I do like these changes despite what Im saying about them. Obviously I cant do it anymore but destroyable offices is fun!

Ferox #1
Ptraci
3 R Corporation
#97 - 2011-11-29 22:25:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Ptraci
Kietay Ayari wrote:
So unless higher end goods go up a lot more than lower end goods it won't matter for my type of PI.



It's a fixed percentage, so prices will be going up evenly across the board. I wouldn't rush out to sell your broadcast nodes for 1 million each right now...

Edit: Better yet - planetary launches are MORE expensive than the concord/interbus rates
Umega
Solis Mensa
#98 - 2011-11-29 22:26:25 UTC
Ptraci wrote:
Endovior wrote:


Customs Offices do reinforce. If you can hold a POS, you should be able to hold a Customs Office. And if you can't hold a POS... well, you shouldn't be stockpiling your PI goo in the Customs Office, anyways.



But holding a POS is different. A POS has guns and thus is (fairly) immune to small ships. And a system with sov has cyno jammers, so there will be no big ships until the cyno jammer is taken out. That means only one thing to defend in a system. Customs offices have no guns. So unless you're prepared to camp all your customs offices, prepare to run all over null sec responding to attack notifications...


Stop Talking.

That is part of the point. It adds another layer to large warfare. Hitting logistic transports can be next to impossible.. now there is an option to deliver repeated body blows before a right hook. Smaller groups have a new method to be a thorn in the side of a larger entity.

Alliance A attacks Alliance B.. they hit a system hard, B has to respond full force. Smaller raids swarm in and start hammering down COs while A holds up B in large fight. POS are like peasants.. if they aren't fed, they in turn can't feed the war machine. Seige warfare 101.. starve them out. That's just the tip of the iceberg of strategies to employ.

And anyone not smart enough to re-evalute the changes and continue to churn out profits, aren't simply smart enough to be doing PI anyway. But they'll continue, they are too stupid to stop. The never ending supply of ships below material cost is proof of this. There will be plenty of PI materials. People that can't afford their towers now, oh well.. don't deserve it anyway.

It will eventually find an equalibrum, everything will be fine, the tax will be a footnote eventually.. pointless whining on something that improves the experince, adds layers and diversity, opporitunity to the wise, and extra pewpew.. so again..

Stop Talking.

 Ume-Pro Studios
Jita Alt666
#99 - 2011-11-29 22:28:21 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Jita Alt666 wrote:
CCP Nullarbor wrote:
Confirming that the base prices were adjusted as well as default tax rates for Concord and Interbus customs offices. The latest and best information is available here:

http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/CustomsOffice



Thank you for implementing a solid system. This is a nice example of risk being rewarded and risk aversion being shunned.

Unless you own a POS is lowsec. Risk you always had AND higher operating cost. Win/win right?


If you set up your own PCO's on the planets in your lowsec system, you are actually lowering your operating costs (and possibly opening an income stream from others) at increased risk.
Denidil
Cascades Mountain Operatives
#100 - 2011-11-29 22:30:00 UTC
by my calculations (and my Oracle fit) it takes 12 Oracles to break the tank (10k/s regen) of a POCO.


time to reinforce = 8mil (shields that need to be removed)/(DPS-10,000)

12 x 900 dps oracles = 10800 dps

8,000,000/(10800-10000) = 8,000,000/800 = 10,000 seconds = 167 minutes = 2.8 hours


on the other hand 20 x 900 dps oracles

18000 dps about 17 minutes

Tedium and difficulty are not the same thing, if you don't realize this then STFU about game design.