Wormholes

[quote]

this is a big misconception among the lower class WH dwellers. they think the higher they go the logistics become harder and farther from HS they get.

Right now my current chain from my home system is this: C6 > C6 static > C3 > HS. Yep...only 3 jumps through WH's and I'm in HS.

Its not always this close but on average were usually only 4-8 jumps from green safety land.

I would also say its safe to assume that the majority of lower class guys don't use mapping tools. Some don't even know they exist. I think if they knew how easy it was to map a chain they would be less afraid to go deeper.

Another C3 dweller chiming in.

VARIETY
Lower class wormholes provide access to more of Eve in general. When it comes to the individual pilot, everyday brings either something new in wormhole space, or easy access to something old in kspace. If an individual pilot is feeling the approach of boredom or burnout within wormhole space, they can head out for the day and find a solo activity that isn't pvp. The same does not seem to be true of the higher class wormholes. The options seem to be either escalations or pvp, that's it. Bane, you did mention that finding a chain to high sec occurs everyday, so technically the same variety exists in higher class wormholes, but it's not quite the same. If an individual C5-6 pilot is looking to zone out a little and relax, the easiest way to do that is to join the blob and not spend time finding the chain to kspace. And it's all about how easy it is to relax.

Perhaps my little subsection here should have been title "CONTENT" since that is essentially what I'm talking about: the lack of content in higher class wormholes. However, I don't think the solution is to add this or that piece of content to C5-6s. Unless higher class wormholes can match the variety provided by lower class wormholes (and therefore Eve as a whole) on an everyday basis and match the ease of access to this variety, there will never be enough content in higher class wormholes.

--Jump clones in wormhole space! This would open up the full content of Eve to everyone in wspace.

PVP and ISK
There are definitely carebears in lower class wormholes who will always POS up and there is no way to change their mentality. There are, however, organizations in lower class wormholes that want to pvp, but, as has been brought up in this thread already, we don't have the isk to pvp at the rate or scale that higher class wormholes do. Before suggesting a controversial fix to this solution, let me point out another aspect of the PVP-ISK issue: morale. In my corp we're trying to foster the "**** it, let's go" mentality. We're new to PVP and we have plenty to learn, so getting massacred isn't a big deal (assuming we can afford it). However, even if someone did have the isk to get massacred, who would want experience that in every engagement? It's demoralizing even for pilots who are learning PVP and expecting to get massacred, and good group leaders recognize this. Therefore, in order to keep the integrity of the group and keep individual players active within that group, it is absolutely necessary to pick our fights in order to maintain not only a balance of isk, but a positve balance in terms of morale.

So, the controversial solution: either get rid of escalations or make them random, either in terms of the chance of an escalation or the spawns contained within an escalation. This is not necessarily a solution that I would want, because I look forward to moving up to higher class wormholes and challenging my corp with such escalations and the subsequent PVP. But... it is an easy solution from CCP's perspective, I would think, and it does close the ISK gap. The alternative to this solution is: add an escalation mechanic to lower class wormholes.

Other random ideas:
--Somehow limit the ability of groups to occupy a wormhole indefinitely. Perhaps this could be tied with escalations and an NPC driven POS bash? Incursions in wspace perhaps?
--The ability to queue the setting up of a POS
--New POS Mechanics. No brainer and no doubt in the works.
--Industrials or low mass capitals for POS and POS module transportation


Best, fly well,
Arma

Now that everything concerning W-space is commonplace, this does become an issue. C6 is no longer "deep" wormhole space; C4 is really the deepest you can go because it's the hardest there to get back to "civilization".

Aside from logistics, how might the W-space experience be different if C6/C5 only connected to C4-C6, C4 connected to all of W-space, and C1-C3 only connected to C1-C4? Then, perhaps, very short-lived random wormholes could appear in any C1-C6 system and link to any other C1-C6 system. You still could get the random lucky connection, but it would die after an hour or two.

It would provide a lot of traffic through C4 systems, making them transit systems and potentially the most dangerous of all, which is a complete opposite of now. This could potentially upset the bears who live there because it's very quiet right now.

My corp is shallow (C2/HS/C4), so the only thing we would lose would be direct connections from C5 systems; we would gain nothing except perhaps increased traffic and potential targets in our C4 static. C2/NS/C5 holes would change. How would this affect others?

o7

Suggesting changes to escalations is based on two factors. First, from what I'm hearing, the groups occupying higher class wormholes tend to have more isk than they really know what to do with. Whether this is actually true or not, I don't really know, but that seems to be the case. Second, the best games I've ever played required me to make tough choices. This is what is exciting about living in a lower class wormhole. We're not making boatloads of ISK so every decision requires a conscious evaluation of what assets we're willing to put on the line. This does not seem to be the case for the occupants of higher class wormholes... in general. There seem to be no hard choices about PVP fleet comps; the only fleet comp is the expensive T3. There is (arguably) no hard choice when it comes to escalations. You put the caps on the line because you'll make amazing ISK. The question comes down to, are escalations balanced in terms of risk vs reward?

Having not experienced the risks and rewards of escalations, I am certainly not one to say whether the risk vs rewards are balanced. But I can ask the question of higher wormhole dwellers: are they? Furthermore, how do the risks and rewards of escalations compare to other risk vs reward situations in Eve? If the risk is the same but the rewards are higher, what justifies them being so?

Another option would be compare the average capital escalation fleet with the average incursion fleet or average C3-4 fleet. We would assume that all fleets were wiped out and then calculate how long it would take to replace the ISK value of those fleets by doing the same activity, respectively. If they are all require about the same amount of time, then perhaps the risk vs rewards of escalations are balanced. If replacing the capital escalation fleet would require a significantly shorter amount of time, then perhaps escalations need to have their rewards reduced. (And, of course, this method of comparison could be argued against as well).

Fly well,
Arma

Just to comment on a few of the recent posts.

I do realize that C5/C6 logistics isn't a scary thing at all (and really if you aren't a POS fueler how often do you really have to go into K-space if you pack for WH space accordingly). You just have to understand how to map it out, which is another tool I don't need because I'm in a C3/LS static. But I have reviewed the mapping tools and they do look useful. Doing those logistics is much in the same as when I lived in Tenal and used 5 cyno's to get to Jita, which was easy once you did it a few times. But other players that didn't do it, or understand fully how to do it efficiently, would think it was something harder than it really was.


The only reason I am drawn away from those higher wormholes this moment is the mass of RL is greater than the mass of Eve play time, else I would probably move up to experience more of the WH life. Currently I do enjoy just signing on whenever I feel like it and having a single POS with a small group of internet spaceship friends I've collected over the years of playing. It is the simple life that I enjoy now, easy to manage, making ISK off of PI, never worrying about assets shared with friends, considering I've let them use my JF's before with never an issue (since most of them still fully participate in nullsec so I mostly have the wormhole to myself while they PVP in null).

Incursion risk vs reward is much lower simply because of the low risk factor that is in doing things in highsec. the only risk you have is if your fleet comp sucks and you get killed by the NPC's. The ISK is good though.

WH escalations require more risk and larger fleet comps to accomplish, thus should have a greater reward because of this.

Everyone that has been to nullsec knows that the risk of attack, far deep into "blue" space, isn't really a risk at all with intel channels for every region and local (next system local scouts as well). If you get caught doing something out there is was mostly you being a dumb@ss or one of these fine WH PVP pilots dropped in unexpectedly .

I have no real suggestions for improving WH though, I just live in the moment. It would be great if POS mechanics were made easier, but everyone knows that already so no need to toot that loose horn

Why would you remove capital escalations? There is absolutely no reason. They are a fantastic mechanic and an epitome example of what mechanics in EVE should be like.

They give huge rewards if you can do them successfully but also require a huge amount of isk investment to do properly and force people to stick themselves in extremely risky scenarios at the same time. This is fantastic.

Why would you want to remove people using PVE fit sieged dreads from w-space?

The entire game should have similar mechanics where you can get an obscene increase in isk for a significant increase in risk. Capital escalations in C5/C6 space currently work perfectly. If you are in an alliance with a large enough playerbase to be able to do capital escalations with no risk because of your numbers, then this is balanced by the fact that the playerbase each only gets a cut proportional to how many people there are. If you are doing capital escalations with a barebones setup, then you are going to die when you get ganked and thus your isk making potential is balanced.

Of course there are ways to tip it in one direction or the other in terms of risk vs reward, but this is the whole point of the game and creating a different between the smart players and the dumb players.

Also I don't see why you are comparing incursions vs C5/C6 escalations, they're completely not comparable. One is in highsec, one is in w-space.

The way I see it is the point of having a progressive class is to allow players to progress up the chain.

What would be the point of removing the endgame goal of running cap escalations? This is by far the most challenging pve currently in the game. It is skill intensive, requires a working knowledge of the environment, and when things go south recovery time is substantial. Even if you have the isk to replace all losses its not like you can reliably get those assets back immediately due too logistics.

Honestly though it is much easier for me to make isk by finding two domi buddies and heading out to the c3. This can be done much more consistanly than escalations and in the long run net more isk.

As for the initial post on why there is such a divide between higher and lower class I think one issue might be that groups in lower class holes are worried about making that jump up to the next level. I am new to c5 life. However really it is not that much harder a life than living in a c2. I think the most difficult time for me in wspace was living solo in a c3.

I believe there are folks currently making an effort to help bridge the gap for groups who are willing to take it to the next level. That is a great thing. If there was more of this or even just a few going out of their way to help pilots just beginning a wormhole life there might not be such an issue.

Being newer to c5/c6 life I understand the intimidation factor that comes up when a c5 or c6 rolls into a lower class. We moved into a higher class hole because we out grew our hole and it could not support the fleets we wanted to field. That does not mean we are not willing to ship down in order to bring a fight to someone who can not ship up. If more higher class groups were willing to do this on a consistent basis maybe it would not scare everyone off when they roll into their next c3.

I will say though I have rolled in to more holes where thre is a small group or just one guy willing to come out of the pos to defend their hole. Where as the next hole with a 40 man corp no one is even willing to take a few pot shots if the opportunity is presented on a silver platter.

I have had more arranged fights since moving up than I thought ever possible. I think larger corps in c4 and below should realize it is not always a trap if a c5/c6 group comes asking for a fight. It is something they have seemingly come used too.

Well, what I personally would do would be to allow capitals into C4-C1 space, limited by jump mass, and rework C6/C5 jump masses. Let me preface by saying that in my opinion, what sets w-space apart from the rest of the game, and what makes it a unique and exciting area of space are two factors. One: No-Local. Two: Limits on Power-projection and Capital Movement (no supercaps) These factors apply for C5/C6 space, but not for C4/C1 space since you can't get caps in there short of building them. I think caps should be allowed in all classes of w-space. I would change the jump masses to the following:

Total Mass/Max Jump Mass:

C6: 4bil/1.35bil
C5: 3bil/1.35bil
C4: 2bil/1.35bil
C3: 1bil/1.35bil
C2: 750mil/1.35bil
C1: 500mil/1.35bil

I think the current abitrary limits on class sizes allowed in to certain wormholes is a relic of the past and is pretty much irrelevant. It makes no significant impact imho, mostly because T3's are pretty much the goto ship to use and they can even get into C1s.

This change in jump masses allows dreads/carriers into any WH, allowing 4/3/2/1/1/1 into C6-C1 in a single jump. I would simultaneously change the capital escalation mechanics from 4 waves no matter what to 4 waves in a C6, 3 in a C5, 2 in a C4, and 1 in a C3, with 0 in C2 and C1s. This will make capital use more prolific in all WH classes, which, like I said is one of the reasons I like w-space and I think it is unique, because it allows the use of capitals without having to worry about getting dropped by a huge 0.0 alliance. I think these changes should go hand in hand with putting dual statics in all wormhole classes. And finally I would also rebalance (read: buff) the profits from doing non-escalated sites. Frankly I have no idea how these currently pay out, all I know is they take a while and are never worth it if you can do capital escalations. However I believe that they should be a completely viable option for isk-making when you are looking to run sites in your static, you should not have to try to move a cap into your static to runs sites with it, instead sites in all classes should be accessible to a fleet of 5-10 people. And should give a reasonable amount of reward.

Anyway my point is that I think that the capital escalation mechanic is fantastic and it should be extended to lower class wormholes, and at the same time the entire w-space system of WH connections should be improved to allow for increased mobility through the classes.

I also think sleepers should scram so that BS's cannot just MJD to victory in sites, but that's sort of another issue...

I'm actually curious where people are getting the idea that C5/C6 cap escalations should disappear. They're a good thing if you're willing to put the assets at risk to receive a much bigger payout per site. However they are currently broken with respect to downtime respawn mechanics.