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Dilemma posed through BNI and EVE-UNI

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Storm Novah
Yada Industries
#81 - 2014-03-13 05:41:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Storm Novah
Divine Entervention wrote:
As a new player, there seems to be a large amount of veterans who steer us noobs towards joining these corporations.

It feels incredibly impersonal. Like your delegating the fostering of your potential community to a standardized social services department.

BNI and EVE-U being orphanages or boarding schools. You don't wish to deal with raising the little ones yourself so you have these institutions set up where you drop off new players and hope they transform into something you will want to harness later.

You want new players to stay, yet you don't want to invest the time personally when it comes to teaching and training. You just want to hand that responsibility off to BNI and EVE-U, make them do the hardwork so you can harvest the fields of their labor.

Why will the veterans of EVE argue that new players should stay, but then put forth no effort towards training up those new people, instead passing off that responsibility onto someone else? Why should new people want to take part in a community of people who as a whole demonstrate that they don't want to interact with them, instead just kicking and shuffling them to others?

I understand your point but consider this: If someone excels in a particular area of Eve why shouldn't they be the ones to handle it. If you had a heart condition requiring surgery you wouldn't want your regular family physician to perform it now would you? No... you ask for a referral to a specialist that is more knowledgeable and more experienced at what you need to handle the situation.

By referring new players to corps/alliances such as Eve Uni and Brave Newbies we are sending you to people who have not only the ability to train new players in the basics of Eve but they are far more experienced at it than say I would be. Sometimes I really don't get along well with others... that's normal... that's life. But because of that I know that I am not right for training other people. Sometimes there are still things that I don't even know. So should I subject a new player to my lack of experience when I can refer them to someone who can handle most if not all of the aspects of a game that I can't provide?

They are by no means the absolute authorities on the game or on training new players... but they have the experience to help new players past/through some of the pitfalls that come with learning a game like Eve which is as complex as it is vast. We refer you to them so you WILL want to stay because you have been trained by the "specialists."

As for the comment about them doing "the hardwork so you can harvest the fields of their labor." Um... do you have any idea of the amount of work that the leaders of corps and alliances deal with to make them even remotely successful? I have been in the leadership of actively recruiting corps a few times... I would not wish that task on anyone ever. It can be an absolute nightmare with even the most experienced players. But to juggle all of that on top of being responsible for training new players in even the simplest of the games mechanics or gameplay just complicates it beyond belief.

So why not use the available assets of the Eve community... they advertise as new player friendly and actively recruit new players. There are corps out there that won't hesitate to mess with new players by joining them to their corps and blowing them up in their ships etc. So go to the ones who are trusted and be thankful they are there and that they are so highly recommended. Because they are the BEST at what they do.
Gabriel Z
Krabulous
#82 - 2014-03-13 05:44:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Gabriel Z
Divine Entervention wrote:
EVE-U and BNI are essentially day care.

I'm in a position to comment on both. You're wrong in both cases.

E-UNI seems to have declined since I was with them, but they had fleets and roams. Several different "campuses" in hisec, losec, nullsec and wormholes. Their ethos was different from BNI's though. They're rigid and restrained. They opt for the approach of if I'm uncertain, I shouldn't risk it. I got bored quickly and the big alliances all wanted huge skillpoints. All I wanted to play EVE for was the fleet fighting, and it was difficult to get anywhere close to that goal as a newbie. (Whoever designed EVE's PvE is destined for hell btw. where he'll be given a position with management.)

I left the game but I resubbed recently when I saw the BNI fun per hour thing on one of the news sites.

BNI though has a very different ethos. They're much more just do it already. Log on, join a fleet, join comms, undock, go for it. It's not as school/class oriented as EUNI, which is a shame with so many newbies. The fleets more than make up for that. With my uni experience I know a lot of the fleet basics already, so it works out pretty well for me. I joined BNI last Saturday, was in my first fleet within 20 minutes and on grid with hostiles in 40 minutes. Two days later, I was on field to help flip a station and take BNI's first station and blew up a TCU. So far, it looks like every newbie who joins and wants to PvP can have a very similar experience.

If you're not a troll, nut up and join. So far no one has told me that I have to do anything other than not be a **** on comms or in channel. One FC completes all of his fleet commands with "please and thank you." It's hilarious. Srsly. Shut up and join.
Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#83 - 2014-03-13 05:47:48 UTC
Gabriel Z wrote:
Shut up and join.

Shut up and join please and thank you!
Azami Nevinyrall
172.0.0.1
#84 - 2014-03-13 05:55:48 UTC
Fun Fact #352357741-79b

I found it easier to get a alt into GSF then EVE Uni!

...
Divine Entervention
Doomheim
#85 - 2014-03-13 05:59:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Divine Entervention
Storm Novah wrote:
Divine Entervention wrote:
As a new player, there seems to be a large amount of veterans who steer us noobs towards joining these corporations.

It feels incredibly impersonal. Like your delegating the fostering of your potential community to a standardized social services department.

BNI and EVE-U being orphanages or boarding schools. You don't wish to deal with raising the little ones yourself so you have these institutions set up where you drop off new players and hope they transform into something you will want to harness later.

You want new players to stay, yet you don't want to invest the time personally when it comes to teaching and training. You just want to hand that responsibility off to BNI and EVE-U, make them do the hardwork so you can harvest the fields of their labor.

Why will the veterans of EVE argue that new players should stay, but then put forth no effort towards training up those new people, instead passing off that responsibility onto someone else? Why should new people want to take part in a community of people who as a whole demonstrate that they don't want to interact with them, instead just kicking and shuffling them to others?

I understand your point but consider this: If someone excels in a particular area of Eve why shouldn't they be the ones to handle it. If you had a heart condition requiring surgery you wouldn't want your regular family physician to perform it now would you? No... you ask for a referral to a specialist that is more knowledgeable and more experienced at what you need to handle the situation.

By referring new players to corps/alliances such as Eve Uni and Brave Newbies we are sending you to people who have not only the ability to train new players in the basics of Eve but they are far more experienced at it than say I would be. Sometimes I really don't get along well with others... that's normal... that's life. But because of that I know that I am not right for training other people. Sometimes there are still things that I don't even know. So should I subject a new player to my lack of experience when I can refer them to someone who can handle most if not all of the aspects of a game that I can't provide?

They are by no means the absolute authorities on the game or on training new players... but they have the experience to help new players past/through some of the pitfalls that come with learning a game like Eve which is as complex as it is vast. We refer you to them so you WILL want to stay because you have been trained by the "specialists."

As for the comment about them doing "the hardwork so you can harvest the fields of their labor." Um... do you have any idea of the amount of work that the leaders of corps and alliances deal with to make them even remotely successful? I have been in the leadership of actively recruiting corps a few times... I would not wish that task on anyone ever. It can be an absolute nightmare with even the most experienced players. But to juggle all of that on top of being responsible for training new players in even the simplest of the games mechanics or gameplay just complicates it beyond belief.

So why not use the available assets of the Eve community... they advertise as new player friendly and actively recruit new players. There are corps out there that won't hesitate to mess with new players by joining them to their corps and blowing them up in their ships etc. So go to the ones who are trusted and be thankful they are there and that they are so highly recommended. Because they are the BEST at what they do.


Wouldn't that new player be an additional potential benefit? The new player can call the attention of an enemy for like 15 seconds of his being focused, being 15 seconds someone of more importance is being neglected and able to do his job. Couldn't that new player be flying in a griffin or a blackbird and effectively shutting down critical targets ability to target your fleet for the amount of time he's remained to be allowed to live, with his time of destruction being counted towards his benefit of allowing those of more importance?

I understand that i would want the doctor to be the guy opening up my chest and operating on my heart. But I also understand that within that hospital, there is a guy who's job it is to make sure the air conditioner works, making it more comfortable for that doctor to do what it is he needs to do.

How are noobs suppose to feel as though their time spent in game is meaningful if the majority of the game is saying otherwise through it's action of not wanting to associate and play with them?
Anya Klibor
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#86 - 2014-03-13 06:02:47 UTC
I was part of a corporation about 18 months ago that worked to train up new players to be PvPers. We didn't teach them how to fit for missions, or how to blitz them. PvE is easy and with enough time you can learn to do all of that without the help of others. The main concern NetheranE and I had was getting great fights and having a blast. I am happy to say we did that and no one ever omplained.

I have had people ask me which is better: E Uni or BNI. My answer is simple: BNI teaches you to engage and to PvP, even when the odds are against you. E-Uni teaches you to blob and whine when you don't get the fight you expect, to complain about "broken mechanics" and never actually learn. You'll learn to make ISK, and that's about it.

BNI trains and teaches. That is huge for a character who is just starting and the learning curve is steep. Send them to BNI to learn, and you know what? Maybe those players will join other corporations and alliances and make awesome FCs and niche pilots. You go with what is tried-and-true. Personally, I set people up to succeed, and that's why I send them to BNI.

Leadership is something you learn. Maybe one day, you'll learn that.
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#87 - 2014-03-13 06:07:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Hasikan Miallok
My mains corp takes new players with the one proviso that someone in corp must know them in real life.

That proviso is necessary because a good percentage of "new players" are alts trying to sabotage, spy or awox other corps.

However complaining whiney new players do not last long. Not that they are kicked or anything, they just do not have the right attitude to stick with a game that takes several years to become good at the "big stuff" and over 20 years to learn all skills, and eventually they quit of their own accord. Other people thrive in Eve and within a few months become key players. Its all about attitude.
Kiryen O'Bannon
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#88 - 2014-03-13 06:34:44 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
If you think there is no political impact to what we do, *Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal. Furthermore, there is no such thing as meaningless learning. Learning by nature is meaningful. The simple fact is that hero tackle is useful to us. That does not make it the same for everyone.

Our alliance was FOUNDED by a new player that decided to influence the landscape of EVE. Just because were are not a major null sov holder does not make our efforts some sort of echo chamber; we're embroiled now in a place we were hired to be in by a sov null entity, and we previously finished a war over possession of some significant resources.

Please dont bother joining, though. *Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal.

Eternal Father, King of birth, /Who didst create the heaven and earth, /And bid the planets and the sun/ Their own appointed orbits run; /O hear us when we seek thy grace /For those who soar through outer space.
Kaerf Arkanghel
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#89 - 2014-03-13 06:40:25 UTC
does this mean OP will be KOS by BNI? would be great.

Just Add Water
Muestereate
Minions LLC
#90 - 2014-03-13 06:41:44 UTC
Please grant me a Google internship a San Francisco loft and a mentor hand picked by me. I just completed an hour of coding on Khan Academy and I know I have great potential.
Claud Tiberius
#91 - 2014-03-13 06:42:54 UTC
Divine Entervention wrote:
As a new player, there seems to be a large amount of veterans who steer us noobs towards joining these corporations.

It feels incredibly impersonal. Like your delegating the fostering of your potential community to a standardized social services department.

BNI and EVE-U being orphanages or boarding schools. You don't wish to deal with raising the little ones yourself so you have these institutions set up where you drop off new players and hope they transform into something you will want to harness later.

You want new players to stay, yet you don't want to invest the time personally when it comes to teaching and training. You just want to hand that responsibility off to BNI and EVE-U, make them do the hardwork so you can harvest the fields of their labor.

Why will the veterans of EVE argue that new players should stay, but then put forth no effort towards training up those new people, instead passing off that responsibility onto someone else? Why should new people want to take part in a community of people who as a whole demonstrate that they don't want to interact with them, instead just kicking and shuffling them to others?

You don't have to join the "elitist" corps. If they don't want your presence, then its their loss. There are thousands of other corps to choose from, many who will take in new players.



Once upon a time the Golem had a Raven hull and it looked good. Then it transformed into a plataduck. The end.
Divine Entervention
Doomheim
#92 - 2014-03-13 06:47:07 UTC
Muestereate wrote:
Please grant me a Google internship a San Francisco loft and a mentor hand picked by me. I just completed an hour of coding on Khan Academy and I know I have great potential.


Can you elaborate on what it is you're implying? I'd like to have your stance clearly stated before I delve into my comparison between choices in game and out.
Kiryen O'Bannon
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#93 - 2014-03-13 07:43:50 UTC
Kaerf Arkanghel wrote:
does this mean OP will be KOS by BNI? would be great.

Not specifically; Im not in a position to make that decision for either BNI or the Brave Collective alliance as a whole. For my corp, I might set him bad standing if I remember, but I probably wont. I have no problem shooting neutrals anyhow, and neither do the rest of us. If he shows up out here, he's likely to get popped.

Eternal Father, King of birth, /Who didst create the heaven and earth, /And bid the planets and the sun/ Their own appointed orbits run; /O hear us when we seek thy grace /For those who soar through outer space.
Divine Entervention
Doomheim
#94 - 2014-03-13 08:03:57 UTC
Kiryen O'Bannon wrote:
Kaerf Arkanghel wrote:
does this mean OP will be KOS by BNI? would be great.

Not specifically; Im not in a position to make that decision for either BNI or the Brave Collective alliance as a whole. For my corp, I might set him bad standing if I remember, but I probably wont. I have no problem shooting neutrals anyhow, and neither do the rest of us. If he shows up out here, he's likely to get popped.


#affected
Samoth Egnoled
Caldari Provisions
#95 - 2014-03-13 08:43:15 UTC
I don't know about other players personally, but i don't mind helping out a newbie from time to time and have spent entire days of my life building up skill queues and answering their questions, in order to start them off. However I don't have the patience to teach newbies all the time, and i'm just as likely to start setting them up for failure if my patience is wearing thin.

It's not that I don't help them, it's that I need to play my own game too. Some of that involves sacrificing newbies to bob. Twisted

Corps like Eve-uni, have a reputation for helping out newbies and teaching them the basics, who am I to intervene if they want to do it?
Riyria Twinpeaks
Perkone
Caldari State
#96 - 2014-03-13 08:50:41 UTC
I think it's good to direct a player to such "general" training corporations when he doesn't have an exact idea what he wants to do in EVE. That way he can get an overview of the possibilities and train how to behave in a general way.

I think many corporations not focussed on training newbies are focussed on something else, so they are likely not as good in showing someone all aspects of the game.

Some corporations really want only players with a base amount of experience, I guess. Others take newbies, too. So what?
Maybe you could be useful for those corporations, but they don't see it. Their mistake.
Maybe some of the corporations which want more experienced players are doing stuff where you really need more SP.

As new player you can be useful from the get-go, but not equally in all areas of the game. That'd be silly, really. Why have a character progression if you can do everything from the start?
Lysenko Alland
Ubiquitous Hurt
The WeHurt Initiative
#97 - 2014-03-13 09:06:51 UTC
Divine Entervention wrote:

How are noobs suppose to feel as though their time spent in game is meaningful if the majority of the game is saying otherwise through it's action of not wanting to associate and play with them?


There are plenty of alternatives to E-UNI, RvB, and BNI. There are public roams/events/fleets that cover almost the entire range of things you'd want to do in the game. There are smaller corps in larger alliances that accept new players with the hope that they'll learn to contribute. There are corps that just appreciate a range of skill levels.

I don't know what you personally are after, but I know that there are good places to wind up that will get you where you want to go. Explore a little bit. If you have specific interests, let us know where they are and maybe we can point you in the direction of a new-player-friendly group doing that.
Lenroc Elisav
Lenny'S TAX evasion 101
#98 - 2014-03-13 10:20:12 UTC
I'll try to summarize your position OP, tell me if I hit the spot:
"Why don't you guys get it, it's all about me, me, me. I'm the center of the universe and I want content created for me, me, me. I can't be bothered to learn the ropes you need to teach me, me, me. I'm an EVE infant hence I'm the future so I want you to spoon held me, me, me."
How am I doing?
You need to change your attitude dude. In this game you can kill a battleship with a frigate or tackle a mighty carrier with an interceptor so although training takes a lot longer then other games there is fun to be had at all levels of play. You are used to the heroic type of game-play that other MMORPGs have which doesn't apply in EVE. In here you are just a capsuleer among thousand others and you need to make your name stand out between equals. Now wipe your tears and go convince people that you can be valuable through your action not your mouth.

Let me show you a little CCP theme song ;):
HTFU
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#99 - 2014-03-13 13:50:28 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
I'm beginning to suspect that the OP isn't here to play Eve at all, he's here to play the forums instead. Virtually every post is designed to infuriate or inflame others.


Experts believe that is the definition of the word "troll".

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
Gabriel Z
Krabulous
#100 - 2014-03-13 14:23:34 UTC
Anya Klibor wrote:
E-Uni teaches you to blob and whine when you don't get the fight you expect, to complain about "broken mechanics" and never actually learn. You'll learn to make ISK, and that's about it.

I'm loving BNI so far, but your characterization of EUNI is dead wrong and makes you sound stupid. As part of a 60 man frigate blob that yesterday spent an hour and a half attacking individual ships in Sendaya, BNI is more a blob king than any EUNI fleet I ever flew in. In fact, on comms, when a pilot was having difficulty catching someone with a buddy of his, an FC told them to use the BNI doctrine: BLOB THEM. I don't know why anyone would think a blob is bad. As if, somehow, a fleet should stand off to the side and send only as many ships as the other side has. How moronic. I'd like to see the haters tell the Pentagon that "blobbing is bad." You're going to get an instructive lesson in the doctrine of overwhelming force.

I learned a lot about fleets and how to fly in one while I was with EUNI. Their problem at the time was simply that they had too many engagement rules and too many operational rules. They were good rules for any corp that wants to survive in EVE. The problem is that with 1000+ noobs, you don't really have to kiss much ass if you don't want to. I guess they never really understood that. BNI has taken the newbie blob suicide squad and used it like I imagined EUNI would when I first started playing.

I prefer BNI for lots of reasons, but EUNI had two things BNI doesn't: better information resources and better instruction. I kind of wish they would combine their resources or ally themselves in some way.