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[Kronos] Pirate Faction Frigates

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Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#1321 - 2014-03-11 13:15:46 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
In the cruor that means that you web him first, but before you get in your small nos range, he webs you , and sicne you are NOT in a fast frigate, you will nto be able to push into the NOS range, therefore your nos is useless.

With the ashimmu this problem is near non existant, sicne the medium NOS and medium euts basically match non bonused web range. THat means you web enemy first and that gives you leverage to brign him into your neut range very fast and he cannot avoid it usign his own web.

Ashimmu will be very strong with this new set of bonuses.

The cruor.. will be dead.
That is only true for the Cruor if your startegy only rely on the NOS. But first she doesn't actually need it to win a duel with another frigate ; and second this two bonuses synergize perfectly for a heavy tackle frigate in small gang.

The Cruor will be slightly behind the Comet in term of tank, firepower and speed, but with two neutralizing NOS. While kiting, it will be completely impossible to catch because of 20km web and you don't even need the nos.

At worse, the nos bonus is as situational as the armor rep bonus of gallente ship, and at best it's simply brutal.

And of course there's the high meta level nos, like c-type small nos with 8,5km range which simply solve every possible problem.
Fourteen Maken
Karma and Causality
#1322 - 2014-03-11 13:18:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Fourteen Maken
Caval Marten wrote:
Still not sold on the Cruor..

Right now with the 90% web you have a chance of catching someone and bringing them into neut range.

With the proposed changes, it's still the slowest pirate frig so what does the web range bonus do? You catch someone out to 20km but you cant scram them, apply damage, or neut them. If you close down to your damage application range, now webs are applied on you and the opponent will dictate range.

This might work in fleets but who brings pirate frigs to fleets anyway. Pirate frigs have always been a soloers niche.

If the Cruor doesn't keep it's current web velocity bonus, consider a damage or neut range bonus.


True enough, now that I think of it there are a few t1 frigates that could scram kite a cruor with common fits. Its pretty slow compared to most frigs, and needs to be one of the fastest for these bonuses to work properly.
Atomic Option
NO Tax FAT Stacks
#1323 - 2014-03-11 19:00:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Atomic Option
I think the range bonus for all BL ships is a great move. It's especially going to be interesting on the Ashimmu. The NOS bonus could be a lot of fun as well especially since these are laser boats.

You mentioned the Sansha don't have a flavor. I always thought that flavor was "lasers with shields" since amarr doesn't really do shield tanks ever. Afterburner speed is an only mildly interesting bonus. Sort of a half-step in the direction of the MWD-sig bonus on other ships. One alternate non-overlap theme might be a cap bonus. That used to be an amarr thing, but the tiericide pass pretty much removed it. And given the cap-suck of lasers...

I really hope you keep the Serpentis web strength bonus where it is. I don't think it's OP at all relative to other pirate bonuses.
Crazy KSK
Tsunami Cartel
#1324 - 2014-03-11 19:14:36 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
That is only true for the Cruor if your startegy only rely on the NOS. But first she doesn't actually need it to win a duel with another frigate ; and second this two bonuses synergize perfectly for a heavy tackle frigate in small gang.

The Cruor will be slightly behind the Comet in term of tank, firepower and speed, but with two neutralizing NOS. While kiting, it will be completely impossible to catch because of 20km web and you don't even need the nos.

At worse, the nos bonus is as situational as the armor rep bonus of gallente ship, and at best it's simply brutal.

And of course there's the high meta level nos, like c-type small nos with 8,5km range which simply solve every possible problem.


if you choose not to use the nos then the cruor is reduced to a tormentor with slightly better stats and a web range bonus
yes it will be hard to catch up to it but not impossible some ships are just fast enough to make up for having one web on them
also to be doing damage at that range you would have to be fitting beam lasers which would bring your not very good 179dps* down to 76dps**
I don't think the comparison with the comet is fair it has 50***more dps(230) one more low slot and is 84/ms faster (after skills)

no, dead space neuts on the cruor solve nothing overheated web range is 13km not even a-type nos' 10,21km solves the problem of being kited

*Small Focused Pulse Laser II, Conflagartion S, 2x Hobgoblin II
**Small Focused Beam Laser II, Aurora S,2x Hobgoblin II
***Light Neutron Blaster II, Void S, 3x Hobgoblin II

Quote CCP Fozzie: ... The days of balance and forget are over.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#1325 - 2014-03-11 20:39:01 UTC
Crazy KSK wrote:
if you choose not to use the nos then the cruor is reduced to a tormentor with slightly better stats and a web range bonus
yes it will be hard to catch up to it but not impossible some ships are just fast enough to make up for having one web on them
also to be doing damage at that range you would have to be fitting beam lasers which would bring your not very good 179dps* down to 76dps**
I don't think the comparison with the comet is fair it has 50***more dps(230) one more low slot and is 84/ms faster (after skills)

no, dead space neuts on the cruor solve nothing overheated web range is 13km not even a-type nos' 10,21km solves the problem of being kited

*Small Focused Pulse Laser II, Conflagartion S, 2x Hobgoblin II
**Small Focused Beam Laser II, Aurora S,2x Hobgoblin II
***Light Neutron Blaster II, Void S, 3x Hobgoblin II

Since when do you get kited outside of scram range ?! And since when does the Comet scram kite with blaster FFS ?!!! And why aurora for God's sake !?

Come on ! You must be trolling ! Proper Comet scram kite with railguns. It has about the same gun dps (you can use a damage rig to offset the MFS) but one more drone ; it have indeed more tank (more low or more rig) and more speed. But with deadspace nos, you will toast the Comet.

Kiting setup, if *some* ship *might* be able to catch you despite the web (it's actually harder to slingshot at lower speed), that leave all the other sitting ducks, and nothing prevent you from using speed mod instead of tank anyway.
Fourteen Maken
Karma and Causality
#1326 - 2014-03-12 10:14:13 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Crazy KSK wrote:
if you choose not to use the nos then the cruor is reduced to a tormentor with slightly better stats and a web range bonus
yes it will be hard to catch up to it but not impossible some ships are just fast enough to make up for having one web on them
also to be doing damage at that range you would have to be fitting beam lasers which would bring your not very good 179dps* down to 76dps**
I don't think the comparison with the comet is fair it has 50***more dps(230) one more low slot and is 84/ms faster (after skills)

no, dead space neuts on the cruor solve nothing overheated web range is 13km not even a-type nos' 10,21km solves the problem of being kited

*Small Focused Pulse Laser II, Conflagartion S, 2x Hobgoblin II
**Small Focused Beam Laser II, Aurora S,2x Hobgoblin II
***Light Neutron Blaster II, Void S, 3x Hobgoblin II

Since when do you get kited outside of scram range ?! And since when does the Comet scram kite with blaster FFS ?!!! And why aurora for God's sake !?

Come on ! You must be trolling ! Proper Comet scram kite with railguns. It has about the same gun dps (you can use a damage rig to offset the MFS) but one more drone ; it have indeed more tank (more low or more rig) and more speed. But with deadspace nos, you will toast the Comet.

Kiting setup, if *some* ship *might* be able to catch you despite the web (it's actually harder to slingshot at lower speed), that leave all the other sitting ducks, and nothing prevent you from using speed mod instead of tank anyway.


I think people are underestimating the Cruor, web range bonus is going to be sweet on a frig, but at the same time it has pretty big weaknesses for a pirate faction frigate so I'm in two minds about it. I think it needs more speed so it can dictate range against most other single web set ups, and close down kiters faster because the tank isn't great either.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1327 - 2014-03-12 10:39:22 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
In the cruor that means that you web him first, but before you get in your small nos range, he webs you , and sicne you are NOT in a fast frigate, you will nto be able to push into the NOS range, therefore your nos is useless.

With the ashimmu this problem is near non existant, sicne the medium NOS and medium euts basically match non bonused web range. THat means you web enemy first and that gives you leverage to brign him into your neut range very fast and he cannot avoid it usign his own web.

Ashimmu will be very strong with this new set of bonuses.

The cruor.. will be dead.
That is only true for the Cruor if your startegy only rely on the NOS. But first she doesn't actually need it to win a duel with another frigate ; and second this two bonuses synergize perfectly for a heavy tackle frigate in small gang.

The Cruor will be slightly behind the Comet in term of tank, firepower and speed, but with two neutralizing NOS. While kiting, it will be completely impossible to catch because of 20km web and you don't even need the nos.

At worse, the nos bonus is as situational as the armor rep bonus of gallente ship, and at best it's simply brutal.

And of course there's the high meta level nos, like c-type small nos with 8,5km range which simply solve every possible problem.



How many times have you tried such theory? It will be always better to bring a hyena if that is what you want to do.

The new bonuses work for the ashimmu (as I said so many times), But for the cruor they are just blank, specially because the sentinel and hynea make the ship simply uneeded.

Its nto easy to balance a cruor, but as of now, would be dumb to use one instead of an EW frigate.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1328 - 2014-03-12 10:40:29 UTC
Fourteen Maken wrote:
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Crazy KSK wrote:
if you choose not to use the nos then the cruor is reduced to a tormentor with slightly better stats and a web range bonus
yes it will be hard to catch up to it but not impossible some ships are just fast enough to make up for having one web on them
also to be doing damage at that range you would have to be fitting beam lasers which would bring your not very good 179dps* down to 76dps**
I don't think the comparison with the comet is fair it has 50***more dps(230) one more low slot and is 84/ms faster (after skills)

no, dead space neuts on the cruor solve nothing overheated web range is 13km not even a-type nos' 10,21km solves the problem of being kited

*Small Focused Pulse Laser II, Conflagartion S, 2x Hobgoblin II
**Small Focused Beam Laser II, Aurora S,2x Hobgoblin II
***Light Neutron Blaster II, Void S, 3x Hobgoblin II

Since when do you get kited outside of scram range ?! And since when does the Comet scram kite with blaster FFS ?!!! And why aurora for God's sake !?

Come on ! You must be trolling ! Proper Comet scram kite with railguns. It has about the same gun dps (you can use a damage rig to offset the MFS) but one more drone ; it have indeed more tank (more low or more rig) and more speed. But with deadspace nos, you will toast the Comet.

Kiting setup, if *some* ship *might* be able to catch you despite the web (it's actually harder to slingshot at lower speed), that leave all the other sitting ducks, and nothing prevent you from using speed mod instead of tank anyway.


I think people are underestimating the Cruor, web range bonus is going to be sweet on a frig, but at the same time it has pretty big weaknesses for a pirate faction frigate so I'm in two minds about it. I think it needs more speed so it can dictate range against most other single web set ups, and close down kiters faster because the tank isn't great either.


That is what I said several times. It does nto need to be the fastest frigate, but cannto be among the slowest of it scompetitors, otherwise the web range bonus is a waste on it, and will always be better to bring a hyena

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1329 - 2014-03-12 10:41:54 UTC
Atomic Option wrote:
I think the range bonus for all BL ships is a great move. It's especially going to be interesting on the Ashimmu. The NOS bonus could be a lot of fun as well especially since these are laser boats.

You mentioned the Sansha don't have a flavor. I always thought that flavor was "lasers with shields" since amarr doesn't really do shield tanks ever. Afterburner speed is an only mildly interesting bonus. Sort of a half-step in the direction of the MWD-sig bonus on other ships. One alternate non-overlap theme might be a cap bonus. That used to be an amarr thing, but the tiericide pass pretty much removed it. And given the cap-suck of lasers...

I really hope you keep the Serpentis web strength bonus where it is. I don't think it's OP at all relative to other pirate bonuses.



AB bonus is far far more powerful than MWD signature bonus. Just run the damm numbers.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1330 - 2014-03-12 10:43:02 UTC
Lloyd Roses wrote:
Just adding to that ashimmu, C-type med NOS is like 3mil buy-order currently. So you get your 16.5km BR nos to your 20km web, which isn't terrible afterall.



Ashimmu will be fine. Even imperial nos matches the non bonused webs of the enemy ship ensurign that you can use your nos after you long web a target.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
King Rothgar
Deadly Solutions
#1331 - 2014-03-12 23:26:01 UTC  |  Edited by: King Rothgar
Kagura Nikon wrote:
King Rothgar wrote:
If you want a long range webber, bring a Rapier, Huginn, Loki or Hyena. The point of the blood raider ships is the powerful neuts + webs to completely incapacitate an enemy ship. In order for that to work, the ranges of the two EW systems must be more or less matched. Having 80km webs with 6 to 12km neuts/nos isn't overly useful as you can only use one bonus at a time in that case. Currently you can use both very well together. The 90% web at 23km (fed navy web + t3 skirmish links) allows you to crash any reasonable gap to neut/nos range in a matter of seconds. And once in neut range, that 90% web is still crippling.

If the bonuses are changed as proposed, we have the following:

1) A webbing Cruor or Ashimmu that doesn't even bother fitting neut/nos since it is kiting and will never get them in range.

2) A NOSing Cruor or Ashimmu that has a web but doesn't take advantage of the range bonus since all combat is within normal web range anyways.

See the problem?

The current Cruor is actually completely fine from a bonus standpoint. The real problem lies in a lack of slots and fittings. In order for our current Cruor to work, it needs a 4th midslot + the PG/CPU to fit a small t2 cap booster. It cannot gain that slot through losing one anywhere else, it's simply short a slot. With the NOS bonus, it doesn't need the cap booster or the 4th mid. And so with only the NOS change, the ship is basically fixed. It still isn't a great ship, but it has some uses. To be more useful it needs more damage output compared to the current one on the live server. 110 dps is a bit on the anemic side imho.

The Ashimmu requires no changes as it is currently performing very well. However, I don't think any would complain if the NOS change went through. It would be a double buff in fact, as it would allow for skipping the cap booster and thus be able to fit a pair of 90% webs. Now that is powerful indeed! The web range bonus swap would remove that new ability however as suddenly you'd need 2 webs to get almost the same effect. And the range bonus is, as stated numerous times, of no value to the Ashimmu.


That is complete lack of understanding of small scale cobmat (where the ashimmu will be used).

Have you even used an ashimmu? The web range bonus will be a HUGE buff to the ashimmu. Its largest problem nowadays is to CATCH its prey not to stop it compeltely (That the neuts will eventually do as well). The ashimmu is among the slwoest cruisers around, web range bonus will finally make it it useful against smart players in cruisers as well


There is a reason why we ( the corp) bought about 50 ashimmus when the changes were announced). BEcause they wil lbe come among the best ships for small gang combat (no small gang is not 50 peopel for you nullbearers, its 3 or 4 people). And we know a LOT about this small scale engagement stuff.


Clearly you're the one not very experienced at pvp. Fights start within 20km typically unless the attacker deliberately initiates at range. Overheated fed navy web is 23km with links which your average ashimmu, especially a small gang or solo one, will have. A 90% 23km web brings everything to a dead stop. That's far more useful to a brawler than the ability to web them at 50km. If you're starting combat at 50km in a ship with a 25km gun range and <15km neut/nos range, you're doing it wrong even if you have a 50km web. The ashimmu is currently one of the finest cruisers in the game for solo/small gang. This web change is a massive nerf to it. Yes it will still have its uses, but it is an unnecessary nerf given its lack of popularity.

[u]Fireworks and snowballs are great, but what I really want is a corpse launcher.[/u]
Caval Marten
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1332 - 2014-03-13 00:34:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Caval Marten
I've never done any testing on Sisi but these pirate frig changes will motivate me just so I can show how bad the Cruor is nerfed and hopefully Rise takes notice.
Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#1333 - 2014-03-13 06:13:27 UTC
all of these look great, especially the worm, and I'm excited to see how this will work for the other ships. Blood and Sansha look pretty good too.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.
Sean Parisi
Blackrise Vanguard
#1334 - 2014-03-13 14:17:39 UTC
I think the major misconception in this thread is the idea that the cruor has to be a brawler. Assuming every pirate ship has to be used in direct combat. Where as the cruor fulfills a perfect support position.
Medalyn Isis
Doomheim
#1335 - 2014-03-13 14:22:09 UTC
As a suggestion, how about this for Blood Raider ships as the Minmatar bonus -

Minmatar Frigate Bonus:
7.5% bonus to Stasis Webifier range and effectiveness.

Now that would be a very cool bonus. Perhaps a little powerful, but it could always be toned down, and then gives blood raiders a unique place in the overall ship lineup.
Crazy KSK
Tsunami Cartel
#1336 - 2014-03-13 15:28:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Crazy KSK
CRUOR

Amarr Frigate Bonus:
50% bonus to Energy Vampire and Energy Neutralizer effectiveness and range

Minmatar Frigate Bonus:
20% bonus to Stasis Webifier range

Role Bonus:
75% bonus to Small Energy Turret range
100% bonus to Small Energy Turret damage
Energy Vampires fitted to this ship will continue to drain your target's capacitor regardless of your own capacitor level.


ASHIMMU

Amarr Cruiser Bonus:
15% bonus to Energy Vampire and Energy Neutralizer effectiveness and range

Minmatar Cruiser Bonus:
20% bonus to Stasis Webifier range

Role Bonus:
100% bonus to Medium Energy Turret damage
Energy Vampires fitted to this ship will continue to drain your target's capacitor regardless of your own capacitor level.

like this the web range bonus would make sense and put the fighting range on both ships to ~20km like the bhaalgorn
sure this steps of the toes of the curse and sentinel but so does the web range bonus on the other pirate ships in one way or another, curse and sentinel will still be better in their role
like this blood ships would be a nice cross between the amarr and minmatar recons

Edit: also considering how slow both of them are and how they are slightly buffed t1 hulls I feel that this is not too powerful

Quote CCP Fozzie: ... The days of balance and forget are over.
Medalyn Isis
Doomheim
#1337 - 2014-03-13 15:34:53 UTC
Crazy KSK wrote:
CRUOR

Amarr Frigate Bonus:
50% bonus to Energy Vampire and Energy Neutralizer effectiveness and range

Minmatar Frigate Bonus:
20% bonus to Stasis Webifier range

Role Bonus:
75% bonus to Small Energy Turret range
100% bonus to Small Energy Turret damage
Energy Vampires fitted to this ship will continue to drain your target's capacitor regardless of your own capacitor level.

You must be trolling, these are crazily OP bonuses.
Crazy KSK
Tsunami Cartel
#1338 - 2014-03-13 15:37:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Crazy KSK
Medalyn Isis wrote:
Crazy KSK wrote:
CRUOR

Amarr Frigate Bonus:
50% bonus to Energy Vampire and Energy Neutralizer effectiveness and range

Minmatar Frigate Bonus:
20% bonus to Stasis Webifier range

Role Bonus:
75% bonus to Small Energy Turret range
100% bonus to Small Energy Turret damage
Energy Vampires fitted to this ship will continue to drain your target's capacitor regardless of your own capacitor level.

You must be trolling, these are crazily OP bonuses.



yeiks I forgot to mention that the cruor should get 3H 4M 3L that would give it the same neuting power as it has right now with 2 webs
2 250% neuts would indeed be too much

Quote CCP Fozzie: ... The days of balance and forget are over.
King Rothgar
Deadly Solutions
#1339 - 2014-03-14 03:54:13 UTC
Sean Parisi wrote:
I think the major misconception in this thread is the idea that the cruor has to be a brawler. Assuming every pirate ship has to be used in direct combat. Where as the cruor fulfills a perfect support position.


Not every ship needs to be a brawler. This is true of pirate ships as well as other types. However, when every attribute of the ship except a single bonus is based around short ranged combat, then yes, it's a brawler. If they want to make the blood raider ships kiting ships then I am not necessarily opposed to that. The web range bonus change would be fine if the other bonuses reflected a longer range role. But that would require a neut/nos range bonus and an energy turret range bonus too (or shift to drone boat). They didn't do that. They left everything on the ship as point blank brawler and then tossed in a range bonus to the webs. It's inconsistent and of no practical value.

And for those who simply want a long range web, as I've said before, you already have those on the minmatar EAF's and recons. There is no shortage of dedicated long range webbers.

[u]Fireworks and snowballs are great, but what I really want is a corpse launcher.[/u]
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1340 - 2014-03-14 10:10:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Kagura Nikon
King Rothgar wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
King Rothgar wrote:
If you want a long range webber, bring a Rapier, Huginn, Loki or Hyena. The point of the blood raider ships is the powerful neuts + webs to completely incapacitate an enemy ship. In order for that to work, the ranges of the two EW systems must be more or less matched. Having 80km webs with 6 to 12km neuts/nos isn't overly useful as you can only use one bonus at a time in that case. Currently you can use both very well together. The 90% web at 23km (fed navy web + t3 skirmish links) allows you to crash any reasonable gap to neut/nos range in a matter of seconds. And once in neut range, that 90% web is still crippling.

If the bonuses are changed as proposed, we have the following:

1) A webbing Cruor or Ashimmu that doesn't even bother fitting neut/nos since it is kiting and will never get them in range.

2) A NOSing Cruor or Ashimmu that has a web but doesn't take advantage of the range bonus since all combat is within normal web range anyways.

See the problem?

The current Cruor is actually completely fine from a bonus standpoint. The real problem lies in a lack of slots and fittings. In order for our current Cruor to work, it needs a 4th midslot + the PG/CPU to fit a small t2 cap booster. It cannot gain that slot through losing one anywhere else, it's simply short a slot. With the NOS bonus, it doesn't need the cap booster or the 4th mid. And so with only the NOS change, the ship is basically fixed. It still isn't a great ship, but it has some uses. To be more useful it needs more damage output compared to the current one on the live server. 110 dps is a bit on the anemic side imho.

The Ashimmu requires no changes as it is currently performing very well. However, I don't think any would complain if the NOS change went through. It would be a double buff in fact, as it would allow for skipping the cap booster and thus be able to fit a pair of 90% webs. Now that is powerful indeed! The web range bonus swap would remove that new ability however as suddenly you'd need 2 webs to get almost the same effect. And the range bonus is, as stated numerous times, of no value to the Ashimmu.


That is complete lack of understanding of small scale cobmat (where the ashimmu will be used).

Have you even used an ashimmu? The web range bonus will be a HUGE buff to the ashimmu. Its largest problem nowadays is to CATCH its prey not to stop it compeltely (That the neuts will eventually do as well). The ashimmu is among the slwoest cruisers around, web range bonus will finally make it it useful against smart players in cruisers as well


There is a reason why we ( the corp) bought about 50 ashimmus when the changes were announced). BEcause they wil lbe come among the best ships for small gang combat (no small gang is not 50 peopel for you nullbearers, its 3 or 4 people). And we know a LOT about this small scale engagement stuff.


Clearly you're the one not very experienced at pvp. Fights start within 20km typically unless the attacker deliberately initiates at range. Overheated fed navy web is 23km with links which your average ashimmu, especially a small gang or solo one, will have. A 90% 23km web brings everything to a dead stop. That's far more useful to a brawler than the ability to web them at 50km. If you're starting combat at 50km in a ship with a 25km gun range and <15km neut/nos range, you're doing it wrong even if you have a 50km web. The ashimmu is currently one of the finest cruisers in the game for solo/small gang. This web change is a massive nerf to it. Yes it will still have its uses, but it is an unnecessary nerf given its lack of popularity.



AHAHAHA that is good one

Can you dare to point how many small scale PVP groups can outmatch us? There are afew.. very very few. You are not one of them.


Your statement crumbles on itself. What you are going to do with yuour all halted at 23km when you cannto neut them? You will get CLOSER. Thta is obvious. And anyoen that knwos how toi pilto wil avoid getting under 25 km from an ashimmu. Sicne the ashimmu is slow.. it is not easy to use its 90% web. The long range web is far weaker. But much easier to leverage in combat with the restricted ashimmu mobility.

THe web change on the ashimmu wil change the ship, but combined with the new nos capability the ship wil be slighly more usable (altouygh with a weaker apex power). The cruor on other hand will be a disaster

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"