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Ship Skins: Nice addition, terrible implementation, how to fix it
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Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#21 - 2014-03-12 19:49:31 UTC
Batelle wrote:
marVLs wrote:
I only see it working by new special painting window with colors, patterns, letters etc. and ISK payment when confirming changes


The downside being taht data would have to be loaded to everyone's client during gameplay, which could be an obstacle.

The upside would be extreme customizability, with professional ship skin artists suddenly being a thing. Maybe make it so the original artist of a skin could save it, or sell the bpcs for it, and not release that pattern even when trading a skinned ship. Basically giving them creative control, income into perpetuity for popular designs, and creating an entire market for cheap knockoffs and forgeries. This all sounds very Eve-like.

That would be wonderful to see in-game but at current technology limitations, a far more reasonable idea would be for CCP to hold contests for artists to craft skins which they could then select from and possibly make finishing touches to them, and release them into the game in a controlled fashion.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Praxis Ginimic
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#22 - 2014-03-12 20:16:57 UTC
This is Eve. There is no permanence. I love the idea of a paint shop but I do believe that it should be expensive and destructible. CCP is on the right track here.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#23 - 2014-03-12 20:39:21 UTC
Ship Customisation Survey and Results

nearly two thirds of people surveyed want it all to be destroyed.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Anhenka
The New Federation
Sigma Grindset
#24 - 2014-03-12 20:45:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Anhenka
Daichi Yamato wrote:
Ship Customisation Survey and Results

nearly two thirds of people surveyed want it all to be destroyed.


Should ships that have been visually customised by a player get bonuses or penalties applied to their attributes?
0004 (00.3%) - Yes

And an ever so slight amount of my faith in the community was restored.

Edit: By which I mean only 4 people out of 1400ish were either trolling or complete idiots.
Petrified
Old and Petrified Syndication
#25 - 2014-03-12 20:51:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Petrified
While the PLEX to buy Aurum costs real world money, for many players, they can trade ISK for the PLEX so they do not see the cash cost that a Mech Warrior Online player would see (love that game).

The cost of the skins, given one plex currently buys 3500 aurum, seems a bit high. The cost of the paint job in Aurum ranges from 45 for frigates to 350 for a battleship. If we say the price of a PLEX is 640 million ISK, then the cost for 1 Aurum is 182,857 ISK.

For an example lets look at the Incursus and Hyperion we have this:
An Incursus costs 450k ISK. To paint it you pay 45 Aurum or 8.2 million ISK.
A Hyperion costs 216 million ISK. To paint it you pay 350 Aurum or 64 million ISK

The price to paint is currently far to high for something that is destructible and does not give any statistical benefit to the ship. What would be better would be to reduce the cost to 1/10th across the board. The frigate paint job should cost 4 Aurum. The Battleship should cost 35 Aurum.

edit to add:
Destructible is perfectly fine but the current cost does not justify wide use of the paint job outside of ohh and ahh.
It would be great if we could apply paint jobs to unpackaged ships - via right click menu or some other mechanic if specialy coding the use of unpackaged items for manufacturing creates too much of a problem.

Cloaking is the closest thing to a "Pause Game" button one can get while in space.

Support better localization for the Japanese Community.
Anhenka
The New Federation
Sigma Grindset
#26 - 2014-03-12 20:58:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Anhenka
Petrified wrote:
While the PLEX to buy Aurum costs real world money, for many players, they can trade ISK for the PLEX so they do not see the cash cost that a Mech Warrior Online player would see (love that game).

The cost of the skins, given one plex currently buys 3500 aurum, seems a bit high. The cost of the paint job in Aurum ranges from 45 for frigates to 350 for a battleship. If we say the price of a PLEX is 640 million ISK, then the cost for 1 Aurum is 182,857 ISK.

For an example lets look at the Incursus and Hyperion we have this:
An Incursus costs 450k ISK. To paint it you pay 45 Aurum or 8.2 million ISK.
A Hyperion costs 216 million ISK. To paint it you pay 350 Aurum or 64 million ISK

The price to paint is currently far to high for something that is irreplaceable. What would be better would be to reduce the cost by 1/10th across the board. The frigate paint job should cost 4 Aurum. The Battleship should cost 35 Aurum.


A: Completely untenable, would not pay off the massive additional dev time required to implement this and change the server to permit it / develop the tools/support/etc in addition to our regular expansions.

B: 8 Mil for a fancy frig, or 64 Mil for a fancy BS is perfectly inline with what I consider acceptable pricing. When a decent PvP frig costs 50 Mil for a T2 with hull, ammo, drugs, and mods, 8 mil is chump change. 100+ for a faction frig. Same with a 64 mil price on BS's. I'm obviously not going to be skinning my fleet BS's if I lose them regularly, but why would I? I will skin my fancy pimped out PvP BS's, and my PvE BS's, because I either don't expect to lose it (PvE) or because 64 mil is a drop in a bucket compared to a faction fit Vindicator.

C: A reduction by 1/10 is 90% of the original cost, not 10%.

TDLR: There is no reason to make them so cheap you skin everything all the time everywhere. Vanity cosmetics need to cost at least a decent amount so they can be vanity cosmetics for people to look at and appreciate. And that point is far above 750k for a frig or 6 mil for a BS.
Petrified
Old and Petrified Syndication
#27 - 2014-03-12 21:10:11 UTC
Anhenka wrote:
Petrified wrote:
While the PLEX to buy Aurum costs real world money, for many players, they can trade ISK for the PLEX so they do not see the cash cost that a Mech Warrior Online player would see (love that game).

The cost of the skins, given one plex currently buys 3500 aurum, seems a bit high. The cost of the paint job in Aurum ranges from 45 for frigates to 350 for a battleship. If we say the price of a PLEX is 640 million ISK, then the cost for 1 Aurum is 182,857 ISK.

For an example lets look at the Incursus and Hyperion we have this:
An Incursus costs 450k ISK. To paint it you pay 45 Aurum or 8.2 million ISK.
A Hyperion costs 216 million ISK. To paint it you pay 350 Aurum or 64 million ISK

The price to paint is currently far to high for something that is irreplaceable. What would be better would be to reduce the cost by 1/10th across the board. The frigate paint job should cost 4 Aurum. The Battleship should cost 35 Aurum.


A: Completely untenable, would not pay off the massive additional dev time required to implement this and change the server to permit it / develop the tools/support/etc in addition to our regular expansions.

B: 8 Mil for a fancy frig, or 64 Mil for a fancy BS is perfectly inline with what I consider acceptable pricing. When a decent PvP frig costs 50 Mil for a T2 with hull, ammo, drugs, and mods, 8 mil is chump change. 100+ for a faction frig. Same with a 64 mil price on BS's. I'm obviously not going to be skinning my fleet BS's if I lose them regularly, but why would I? I will skin my fancy pimped out PvP BS's, and my PvE BS's, because I either don't expect to lose it (PvE) or because 64 mil is a drop in a bucket compared to a faction fit Vindicator.

C: A reduction by 1/10 is 90% of the original cost, not 10%.

TDLR: There is no reason to make them so cheap you skin everything all the time everywhere. Vanity cosmetics need to cost at least a decent amount so they can be vanity cosmetics for people to look at and appreciate. And that point is far above 750k for a frig or 6 mil for a BS.


A - what no one buys, no one gets paid for anyways - cost is still currently too high because....

B - Unlike buying a Tech II ship you get no benefit for the paint job to the stats of your ship. So sure, flying an Enyo costs more, you get more bang for your buck in that enyo than you would flying an Incursus with a different color hull.

C - you are completely right. This is what happens when I am talking on the phone about one subject and typing another subject at the same time - thank you. Will correct.

Cloaking is the closest thing to a "Pause Game" button one can get while in space.

Support better localization for the Japanese Community.
Luna Lockhearts
Defiant Liberation Corporation
Defiant Collective
#28 - 2014-03-12 21:11:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Luna Lockhearts
The problem I see is not so much with the pricing but the fact that it creates a separate ship. Now i did read somewhere that said something on the lines of
'if they wanted to give a ship a new skin they had to give it a new ID which meant making a new ship in the game'
I'm not sure how they could work around that but that would just flood the market with ships that are the same only look different.
What I'd like to see is the paint system a station service which would avoid the use of blueprints, you click on it and are able to spray the active ship you currently have with whichever colour scheme you wish (simply start off with colour schemes that are already in the game), the cost would be in isk, with some rare colours later on for AUR and If you were to repackage the ship it would return to its original colours, so to sell it on the market you repackage it, it turns back into the original and you sell it under the usual ship tag, of course contracts would be different, but it would stop from the market being flooded unnecessarily.

Some people are like Slinky's, Not much good for anything, but they still bring a smile to your face when you push them down a flight of stairs.
Tsobai Hashimoto
State War Academy
Caldari State
#29 - 2014-03-12 21:14:36 UTC
Anhenka wrote:
Petrified wrote:
While the PLEX to buy Aurum costs real world money, for many players, they can trade ISK for the PLEX so they do not see the cash cost that a Mech Warrior Online player would see (love that game).

The cost of the skins, given one plex currently buys 3500 aurum, seems a bit high. The cost of the paint job in Aurum ranges from 45 for frigates to 350 for a battleship. If we say the price of a PLEX is 640 million ISK, then the cost for 1 Aurum is 182,857 ISK.

For an example lets look at the Incursus and Hyperion we have this:
An Incursus costs 450k ISK. To paint it you pay 45 Aurum or 8.2 million ISK.
A Hyperion costs 216 million ISK. To paint it you pay 350 Aurum or 64 million ISK

The price to paint is currently far to high for something that is irreplaceable. What would be better would be to reduce the cost by 1/10th across the board. The frigate paint job should cost 4 Aurum. The Battleship should cost 35 Aurum.


A: Completely untenable, would not pay off the massive additional dev time required to implement this and change the server to permit it / develop the tools/support/etc in addition to our regular expansions.

B: 8 Mil for a fancy frig, or 64 Mil for a fancy BS is perfectly inline with what I consider acceptable pricing. When a decent PvP frig costs 50 Mil for a T2 with hull, ammo, drugs, and mods, 8 mil is chump change. 100+ for a faction frig. Same with a 64 mil price on BS's. I'm obviously not going to be skinning my fleet BS's if I lose them regularly, but why would I? I will skin my fancy pimped out PvP BS's, and my PvE BS's, because I either don't expect to lose it (PvE) or because 64 mil is a drop in a bucket compared to a faction fit Vindicator.

C: A reduction by 1/10 is 90% of the original cost, not 10%.

TDLR: There is no reason to make them so cheap you skin everything all the time everywhere. Vanity cosmetics need to cost at least a decent amount so they can be vanity cosmetics for people to look at and appreciate. And that point is far above 750k for a frig or 6 mil for a BS.



I agree, If they are priced at 1/10 then everyone will use em.......... 8mill isk is a drop in the bucket, ill welp a 100 and not notice the dent in my wallet
Anhenka
The New Federation
Sigma Grindset
#30 - 2014-03-12 21:18:33 UTC
Luna Lockhearts wrote:
The problem I see is not so much with the pricing but the fact that it creates a separate ship. Now i did read somewhere that said something on the lines of
'if they wanted to give a ship a new skin they had to give it a new ID which meant making a new ship in the game'
I'm not sure how they could work around that but that would just flood the market with ships that are the same only look different.
What I'd like to see is the paint system a station service, you click on it and are able to spray the active ship you currently have with whichever colour scheme you wish (simply start off with colour schemes that are already in the game), the cost would be in isk, with some rare colours later on for AUR and If you were to repackage the ship it would return to its original colours, so to sell it on the market you repackage it, it turns back into the original and you sell it under the usual ship tag, of course contracts would be different, but it would stop from the market being flooded unnecessarily.


That's the eventual plan. At the moment though it's not possible because of the way the server handles things. In order to change the server code/develop the tools/skins/etc, it's going to take a lot of labor, a lot of time, and a lot of money to pay the devs in question. Since this is a side project that does not directly contribute towards the plans for the upcoming expansions, it needs to provide a degree of income to offset the extra unbudgeted money that will be sunk into it.

That's what this initial pilot program is: An interest check using currently avaliable mechanics in order to gauge if it's currently financially feasible to do concurrent with the upcoming expansion or if it needs to be shelved until it can be a budgeted part of an expansion.

Petrified wrote:
A - what no one buys, no one gets paid for anyways - cost is still currently too high because....

Tons of people will buy it at the current pricing. You may not be one of them unless they lower it to literally a few pennies worth of Aurum, but there are already a ton of people who want these skins, at these prices.
Petrified
Old and Petrified Syndication
#31 - 2014-03-12 21:18:53 UTC
Luna Lockhearts wrote:
The problem I see is not so much with the pricing but the fact that it creates a separate ship. Now i did read somewhere that said something on the lines of
'if they wanted to give a ship a new skin they had to give it a new ID which meant making a new ship in the game'
I'm not sure how they could work around that but that would just flood the market with ships that are the same only look different.
What I'd like to see is the paint system a station service, you click on it and are able to spray the active ship you currently have with whichever colour scheme you wish (simply start off with colour schemes that are already in the game), the cost would be in isk, with some rare colours later on for AUR and If you were to repackage the ship it would return to its original colours, so to sell it on the market you repackage it, it turns back into the original and you sell it under the usual ship tag, of course contracts would be different, but it would stop from the market being flooded unnecessarily.


The paint changes the ID of the ship, but apart from appearance, the ship is identical to the base it was formed from. The difference between changing the ID of a ship to changing the detailed color scheme is that you now require additional information being sent from the server to client which could create sever lag problems. Future gate camps/camp breaker fleets will require absurd customized paint jobs so that you lag the client out.

In terms of customization and client-server stability, it is easier to have the ship skin on your computer already and transmit the ID type instead of detailed color breakdowns.

Cloaking is the closest thing to a "Pause Game" button one can get while in space.

Support better localization for the Japanese Community.
Petrified
Old and Petrified Syndication
#32 - 2014-03-12 21:25:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Petrified
Anhenka wrote:

Petrified wrote:
A - what no one buys, no one gets paid for anyways - cost is still currently too high because....

Tons of people will buy it at the current pricing. You may not be one of them unless they lower it to literally a few pennies worth of Aurum, but there are already a ton of people who want these skins, at these prices.


Fair point. This is a test and based on response CCP will adjust the pricing. You will certainly see people buying the skins and applying them, but once they lose the ship, will they buy again? There is still such a thing as pricing yourself out of the market or, in this case, pricing stagnation into the market when the sole supplier prices it too high for practicality.


Added:
While there are certainly plenty of us rolling in ISK, not everyone is rolling in isk or can afford to drop a lot of cash on top of a subscription to buy aurum. Why should the pricing be exclusive? Clothing being expensive is one thing: you don't lose your jacket when you get podded, the paint job you do lose with the ship. Perhaps 1/10th the cost is too low, but a half would work better - the cost is still high but not so high that people stop buying Aurum (or buying third party via the market place which still requires aurum transactions). They can lose, feel the pain of it, but still feel it is worthwhile to buy it again.

I wonder who kill mails will look... will they show the ISK value or added aurum value...

Cloaking is the closest thing to a "Pause Game" button one can get while in space.

Support better localization for the Japanese Community.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#33 - 2014-03-12 21:55:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
Petrified wrote:
While there are certainly plenty of us rolling in ISK, not everyone is rolling in isk or can afford to drop a lot of cash on top of a subscription to buy aurum. Why should the pricing be exclusive?

If you're flush with ISK, you can buy Aurum. If you're not flush with ISK, you can run a few L4s to earn ISK to pay for Aurum. And if you're simply too lazy to go out and earn some ISK (which is probably the case for the majority of players complaining) then you can content yourself with flying the standard hulls.

Basically what this boils down to is players that are willing to work towards earning a new feature vs. those that think everything should simply be given to them.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Petrified
Old and Petrified Syndication
#34 - 2014-03-13 01:07:13 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Petrified wrote:
While there are certainly plenty of us rolling in ISK, not everyone is rolling in isk or can afford to drop a lot of cash on top of a subscription to buy aurum. Why should the pricing be exclusive?

If you're flush with ISK, you can buy Aurum. If you're not flush with ISK, you can run a few L4s to earn ISK to pay for Aurum. And if you're simply too lazy to go out and earn some ISK (which is probably the case for the majority of players complaining) then you can content yourself with flying the standard hulls.

Basically what this boils down to is players that are willing to work towards earning a new feature vs. those that think everything should simply be given to them.


Who said it should be given to them? I do not recall ever saying that. A few level 4s won't pay for the plex to buy Aurum. It would naturally pay for resellers, however.

Cloaking is the closest thing to a "Pause Game" button one can get while in space.

Support better localization for the Japanese Community.
Praxis Ginimic
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#35 - 2014-03-13 01:10:07 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Petrified wrote:
While there are certainly plenty of us rolling in ISK, not everyone is rolling in isk or can afford to drop a lot of cash on top of a subscription to buy aurum. Why should the pricing be exclusive?

If you're flush with ISK, you can buy Aurum. If you're not flush with ISK, you can run a few L4s to earn ISK to pay for Aurum. And if you're simply too lazy to go out and earn some ISK (which is probably the case for the majority of players complaining) then you can content yourself with flying the standard hulls.

Basically what this boils down to is players that are willing to work towards earning a new feature vs. those that think everything should simply be given to them.


Don't forget about those of us who are itching to take that new feature away from the ones who've earned it.
Petrified
Old and Petrified Syndication
#36 - 2014-03-13 01:12:27 UTC
Praxis Ginimic wrote:

Don't forget about those of us who are itching to take that new feature away from the ones who've earned it.


It should be entertaining to say the least. Big smile

Cloaking is the closest thing to a "Pause Game" button one can get while in space.

Support better localization for the Japanese Community.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#37 - 2014-03-13 01:15:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
Petrified wrote:
Who said it should be given to them? I do not recall ever saying that. A few level 4s won't pay for the plex to buy Aurum. It would naturally pay for resellers, however.

Quite a few folks, if you read through some of the various threads... 5 Aurum tokens are selling for between $61-84 million ISK @ Jita. Since you only need 350 Aurum for a battleship-size skin, it works out to around $42-$58 million ISK for the battleship version. If you can't earn that through L4s in an hour, skins are the least of your worries...

Petrified wrote:
It should be entertaining to say the least. Big smile

It's already entertaining listening to people cry poverty... Lol

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Petrified
Old and Petrified Syndication
#38 - 2014-03-13 01:19:48 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:

Quite a few folks, if you read through some of the various threads... 5 Aurum tokens are selling for between $61-84 million ISK @ Jita. Since you only need 350 Aurum for a battleship-size skin, it works out to around $42-$58 million ISK for the battleship version. If you can't earn that through L4s in an hour, skins are the least of your worries...

You know, I completely forgot about the aurum tokens. Thanks for reminding me they exist.

Cloaking is the closest thing to a "Pause Game" button one can get while in space.

Support better localization for the Japanese Community.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#39 - 2014-03-13 01:29:42 UTC
Petrified wrote:
You know, I completely forgot about the aurum tokens. Thanks for reminding me they exist.

No problem - I'd just assumed everyone was buying the tokens as opposed to converting PLEX.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#40 - 2014-03-13 02:12:31 UTC
Maybe I'll make a Maelstrom for L4s after all.

...a Krusual Maelstrom, that is. With a few Krusual Rifters to go alongside it.

Eureka! I'm a genius or something! Certain DJs on EVE-Radio host 1v1 frig tournaments. Krusual Rifters would be perfect for flying in those.

Or Nugeoihuvi merlins. Or Aliastra Incursi. Or - and especially - Kador Punishers.

Side note: I have a Kador Abaddon on SiSi. It is Majestic as F-ck™, especially when you're using Gamma crystals.
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