Jita Park Speakers Corner

This is why you failed....

Responding to several posts, and so not quoting any:

For those in this thread who're saying that the CSM isn't effective, why do you say that? What are you looking for that would convince you that the CSM is effective? Xavier, I know you're mad about the interceptor nullification thing, but "I disagree with a decision CCP has made" is not proof of CSM ineffectiveness. Those concerns regarding nullification have been relayed and discussed, and the agility nerf implemented partly as a response to them. That said, the overall mechanic is still one that many players and CSMs find interesting.

You said, a while back, that CSM 8 often talks about the SMA thing as an accomplishment, but that it stands alone. It's true that we do-- most of the reason this is is because the process leading up to the fix was blanket un-NDA'd by CCP Dolan, meaning that I can use it as the best possible example of how the CSM process works. Otherwise, I'm left with "idea...stuff happened...DEVBLOG!".

It is not, however, the *only* thing the CSM has accomplished. We pushed for drone assist changes, we brought up issues with damps and other ewar. This week alone, I have seen three things pass my way: one, a post that would have surely outraged players (CSM gave feedback to this effect, and it was acted on), a post on a larger upcoming feature (mostly good, but some of the details are poor; the discussion is ongoing, and as with siphons, I'll be very clear on what I think and have thought once it comes out), and a larger discussion that I'm nervous about, but waiting for more information on. When the information comes, I'll act as appropriate, representing the entire playerbase but paying particular attention to newbies and independent groups. At worst, we're 1/3 for the week already in terms of ~relevance~. We've also got a large chunk of minutes back, which means doing *our* jobs and compiling those for release.

There's a problem where, if the CSM successfully performs our function and gives good feedback/raises player concerns before a thing is made public, those comments become a road not taken. The ship skinning dev blog went over well-- we saw that feature and that blog long before it was made public, and our input there was taken seriously in both the implementation and the communication. Is that visible? Not really. I don't know how to make it more so, but that's a goal I'm going to be working towards next year.

If only it were mere disagreement. The original Interceptor nullification change was game-breaking due to the nature of server ticks. The fact that the CSM could not see that or push back against it, despite the fact that dozens of people were pointing it out before release, is a prime example of the CSM process either being inept (they also did not understand the nature of server ticks) or irrelevant (they understood the game mechanic and were ignored).

The fact that you and your ilk still try to defend the original Rubicon change, or that you think the correct answer to the problem that change caused was giving interceptors AF-like agility... doesn't really speak well either.



The game consistently improving since the creation of the CSM. If the CSM is effective, the game development in the years since the CSM was created should have improved. Has it? No. There have been some successes in terms of improving the game, but many, many massive failures in that time.

The fact that the CSM has not been able to help prevent those failures and in some cases, seem oblivious to why certain decisions are a failure to begin with... points to the irrelevance of the process in general. Which isn't just this CSM, you can go back to the badly rolled out Planetary Interaction, Incarna as an expansion in general, the creation of Incursions and how imbalanced the faucet was with them, and every other fail of the last few years. CCP is the same CCP no matter what grouping gets sent to party with them in Iceland.

I think this question was touched on in the original post.

Where were all you guys during the SOMER BLINK bullsh!t?

Mal'canis voiced his opinion even though it was a ignorant fanboy opinion.

You are not the sole arbiter of whether a decision is a good one, get over yourself. At best that makes your so called proof a personal opinion that you insist on presenting as a fact, which frankly is a idiotic thing to do which rightly gets laughed at when people try to do it in other parts of the forum. Note I am not automaticly saying that any of the things you mentioned were good ideas, just that your opinion is not the sole deciding factor.

I think the point Xavier is trying to make, without it getting personal, is there HAVE been some serious issues that haven't gotten attention, including issues that the community as a whole have said were going to be bad and were pushed into production anyway.

Corp Roles - People have complained about this for seems to be eons, yet its only been six years. Let's say that again; 6 years. You can't say something like, "Well let's be fair to CCP about this.", because it's been roughly 60% of the games total life. That's a LONG time.

Modular POS/POS issues - This has been another sticking point. People have gone so far as to provide examples to CCP to help get this on a roll, and we've even had some suggest its been stuck on a back burner somewhere. I honestly believe it hasn't even made it to the kitchen, much less the top of the stove to be put on a "back burner". I don't think CCP has an understanding of the code, and since the person/team responsible for it probably isn't employed there any longer, they simply have no clue how to fix it.

Unified Inventory - This was another fiasco that was rushed from non-production into production and failed. The player base said it was a horrible idea, they were right, and it took a year to fix. A year to fix it? That's just unacceptable.

The new launcher - Another fiasco that was supposed to help players and instead has been a melting pot of issues. The launcher was supposed to help log players in faster by being able to select characters sooner. That was a fail. It was supposed to help multi-boxers log accounts in faster. That was a fail. It's supposed to help patching. Yeah, you guessed it; it's a failure there, too. There have been more complaints about patching than I have ever seen in the past 3 or 4 years of me playing this game. Even the forum thread started by CCP Atropos about the "New Launcher" can't get her to respond since the middle of November. That's been 4 months since an official reply, and from a customer service viewpoint, this is disgusting. And yes, the playerbase said this was a bad idea. It was rushed into production, and people are still complaining about it because it makes it so they can't play a game they love. I expect this to be fixed in about a year, since this seems to be about the time it takes for the "rushed to production" issues to truly get fixed.


Then there is Incarna, the issues with Planetary Interaction when it started, and the list goes on and on.

While I might not speak for all the players, there have been many time where the player base has come back with very vocal, very intuitive, and very sound reasons why some of the "game upgrades" needed more time in development, didn't get it, and have messed up game play. There are times where the player base doesn't feel like it's being recognized or heard, and sadly this is true. I think people want more from the CSM since the belief is you have CCP's ear and should be heard.

Being realistic, I know there are times the CSM won't be heard by CCP. I think people want to hear about this, because if we're electing you to perform this serviced for us, then its our voice (the players) that isn't being listened to either.

Like, seriously?

I have to come up with something to give you at Fanfest for that.. (you are there, right?)

Give him some cheese. It will go great with his wine.

Before you said beer I was actually considering mead aka honey wine but I guess that's too sweet for ya.

But that isn't thanks to CSM. That is thanks to the community blasting voices together with a note of "NO!".