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Dual sovereignty for Luminaire solar system Gallente/Caldari

Author
Skye Nico
#41 - 2014-03-10 19:36:32 UTC
Fredfredbug4 wrote:
All this thread proves is that Provist are undeniably trying to exert dominance over the Federation in a war of aggression (as if starting said war wasn't enough). You can pretend to be oppressed and targeted all you want but when literally everyone except you is content, you should start asking yourself if you're in the wrong.

Of course, that would take honor, strength, intelligence and courage to do. Things that provist and ultra-nationalistic patriots are utterly lacking in.

Your blind hatred and utter incompetence is why millions of Gallente and Caldari have perished in this war.


It is just people trying desperately to remain relevant, important. We all know the militias will not cease their fighting, and we all know that those involved are just another cog in the machine. Some have a hard time accepting that and feel the need to make their actions feel grandiose. If you want to fight, then fight. But don't be mistaken: you are simply just another pilot. Fighting in a proxy war does not provide one with elite status - it is an occupation just like any other.
TomHorn
Horn Brothers Holdings Inc.
#42 - 2014-03-10 19:47:17 UTC
Fredfredbug4 wrote:
when literally everyone except you is content, you should start asking yourself if you're in the wrong.


You are right Fred. To me the treaty which doesnt give the Caldari protection in the solar system but gives protection to the Gallente on the ground has a kind of hypocricy to it.

When your fellow countrymen all seem content you should ask yourself if your wrong. It seems that i am wrong.

Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#43 - 2014-03-10 20:19:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Stitcher
Desiderya wrote:
I'm not in disagreement about the value of maneuvers and simulation, and the need to keep manpower costs low, but if it's war - and the question of our sovereignity - we're talking about, not just in light of a federation ruled by its military-industrial complex, but also other external and even internal threats, we have to be willing to carry these costs.

Do question the means with which this conflict is fought over, but do not question the mission.


Nuh-uh. I don't question your competence. I'm not there on the field, I don't have the right to second-guess tactical calls "on the ground."

But I'm damn well going to question the mission. I don't see the profit in it unless we are, ourselves, ruled by our military-industrial complex, and I don't see why what you clearly think is a bad thing for the Federation would be a good thing for us.

The prosperity of the State is supposed to be brought for the benefit of the citizens of the State, not with their blood. Show me a true existential threat to the State, and I'll gladly fight that off, no matter the cost.

But I don't see one. At least, not from the Federation.

The existential threat I DO see is an internal one, and it's a meme. A mind-virus, a toxic idea. And the idea is this: We are afraid.

We fear something, and I don't know what, nor why. And our fear is making us irrational, driving us to lash out and wound our own armed forces in the name of hardening them to fend of an external military threat that, from where I'm standing, doesn't really appear to exist.

I don't mean there aren't threats out there, of course there are. There's every good reason to be cautious and sensible, there are little hazards which could weaken us everywhere. But as we are now, if there's something looming on the horizon that threatens to swallow the State whole and snuff us out forever, I just can't see it. If it truly exists, please show it to me, but if it doesn't, then for the Maker's sake please stop squandering good resources and souls fighting shadows and Oni.

Whatever that threat may be, it certainly isn't the Federation. They know full well that a genuine war with us would be a bloodbath that they'd have no guarantee of winning, and even if they did it would be a pyrrhic, broken victory that left them with a mountain range of dead and a handful of blood-washed world cinders. They don't want that.

Neither do we. And I'm pretty sure that the militia war isn't going to erupt into full-scale open war or else it would have done so by now. Which means that we're sinking manpower and materiel into enhancing our preparedness for a war that's unlikely to happen.

Quote:
If you're not willing to risk or sacrifice anything, you're not going to get results, as weakness only gives birth to weakness. Regarding your fondness of theoretical experience, let us keep in mind that during the time this conflict has gone cold, all this mass of training has done little to give us an edge. Now, I can't prove you otherwise, but based on my experience facing adversity and returning as a survivor beats any training. Training and drill increases the quote of those returning.


I realize that such low-tech solutions as a paperclip are uncommon in the vicinity of a capsuleer, but if you can get your hands on one, I'd appreciate it if you indulged me in a physical demonstration of something - unwind it a little, and bend it back and forth a few times.

You should notice that it very quickly becomes warm, and then shortly afterwards it becomes increasingly difficult to bend. You are work-hardening it, toughening the steel by putting it under repeated stress. This is a good thing - the metal's getting stronger.

And then, without warning and with practically zero effort, it will snap - just fall apart.

The appearance of strength is not the same thing as actual strength, and while you can certainly toughen something up by stress-testing it, that same stress-testing can compound tiny flaws and bring them together into a sudden and un-forewarned catastrophic failure.

Every ship is valuable, every life a resource. Every loss may toughen the paperclip and make it harder to bend, but it will also shift around the tiny flaws until one day, you stress something that has passed every test so far and...

Snap.

This war is not a test that will harden the survivors against failure - it is a failure in itself. We will not benefit from it in the long term.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders

Claudia Osyn
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#44 - 2014-03-10 20:30:03 UTC
TomHorn wrote:
Fredfredbug4 wrote:
when literally everyone except you is content, you should start asking yourself if you're in the wrong.


You are right Fred. To me the treaty which doesnt give the Caldari protection in the solar system but gives protection to the Gallente on the ground has a kind of hypocricy to it.

When your fellow countrymen all seem content you should ask yourself if your wrong. It seems that i am wrong.


What are you offering us, aside from the opportunity to repair your hurt feelings (which we are not inclined to care about one bit), in exchange? Dual sovereignty in, say, Jita perhaps?

A little trust goes a long way. The less you use, the further you'll go.

Valerie Valate
Church of The Crimson Saviour
#45 - 2014-03-10 20:56:55 UTC
Clearly the solution is to split the planets of Gallente Prime and Caldari Prime in half, and give half to each party.

Doctor V. Valate, Professor of Archaeology at Kaztropolis Imperial University.

Skye Nico
#46 - 2014-03-10 21:01:41 UTC
The solution is to realize it is out of our control.
Claudia Osyn
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#47 - 2014-03-10 21:16:32 UTC
Skye Nico wrote:
The solution is to realize it is out of our control.

Basically, this.

Although I'm sure Gallente leaders could be convinced to split sovereignty if the caldari leaders would give up half of Jita to us.

A little trust goes a long way. The less you use, the further you'll go.

Desiderya
Blue Canary
Watch This
#48 - 2014-03-10 21:33:20 UTC
I can assure you that every ressource I commit to any battle is not against shadows nor ghosts but a very real threat. We may find a solution for this at the negotiation table, but I'd prefer to negotiate out of a position of strength, not weakness. Undermining of military morale makes it not easier to achieve this goal, regardless of what outcome you would prefer, especially with the State Executor piecefully (sic) joining the stars of his beloved Black Rise.

Your allegory with the metal wire is correct, although I'm unsure whether such a flimsy piece is a good choice for caldari. In essence, you have to know your limits. You'll never find those out if you don't test them, so we're going to have to balance it out. Which is exactly why we don't want a total war, as illustrated nicely by yourself and the question whether CONCORD would truly be able to stop such a hypothetical endeavour.

So we can argue about the necessity or damage/reward ratio of our contained conflict all day, and I can understand some of the positions you're defending quite well, yet I'm unable to subscribe to them as more than mere 'It would be nice, if..."-ideas based on my experience with the enemy - the institution, not its little human cogs and wheels. You should be wary of those noble ideas of peace and understanding with an enemy that was easily capable of the worst of atrocities over someone saying 'no' to them.

My little piece of life advice here is that if you look for a working relationship, you should look not look only at vicinity, but at common interests and above all, stability. How can you make any deal with someone able to massively change his entire agenda by virtue of populism.

Ruthlessness is the kindness of the wise.

Skye Nico
#49 - 2014-03-10 22:24:24 UTC
Desiderya wrote:
How can you make any deal with someone able to massively change his entire agenda by virtue of populism.


You seem to be misunderstanding the function of representative government. Agendas are not set and followed by whim.
Noden Vorpalstar
The Knights of Polaris
#50 - 2014-03-10 23:10:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Noden Vorpalstar
Many of my fellow Federation citizens and neutral observers have already stressed many times over that Dual Sovereignty for Luminaire would be a bad idea. I only wish to list a few observable facts for everyone to think on.

1. The Luminaire Solar System is legal Gallente Federation territory. It is high security space, and legally recognized by Concord and every legal body in New Eden.

2. Being Gallente Federation territory, Luminaire is policed by The Federation Navy. The Federation Navy's responsibility in this regard is to defend the sovereign territory of The Federation, it's assets, and the people living there. To enforce the laws of The Federation within its territory, and to eliminate or detain those who have been deemed a security threat to The Federation.

Reasons for such enforcement include, but are not limited to: Hostilities or attempted hostilities against Federation interests, Federation citizens, or independent capsuleers and non-capsuleers in Federation Space and/or territories, smuggling of illegal substances or persons (wanted criminals / slaves), violations of interstellar laws or treaties, piracy, attempted piracy, terrorism, or membership in any organization which is involved in extremist activities.

It can be reasonably expected that the Minmater Republic, The Amarr Empire, and The Caldari State each have similar laws which they enforce within their own territory. And rightfully so.

3. The OP Pilot TomHorn's reasoning for dual soverignty is simply unfounded.

TomHorn wrote:
Without dual sovereignty of the Luminaire solar system, only the Gallente citizens are protected once they leave the planet. Many Caldari citizens have to run the gauntlet of trying to evade the Federation navy trying to kill them, when wanting to go down to the planet or leave due to bad security standings with the Federation.


A simple review of the available open source evidence on GalNet will reveal that his claim of "Caldari Citizens have to run the gauntlet" is dubious and highly unlikely. Most ship kills in the area are against Serpentis Pirates or Independent Capsuleer on Capsuleer violence. Very very few engagements are even conducted by The Federation Navy except in respect to the duties they are required to excecute as listed above.

4. The OP Pilot TomHorn is likely not interested in a peaceful solution to the conflict given his own private organization Dragonaurs being named after the Caldari Nationalist (and recognized Terrorist) organization 'the Templis Dragonaurs'. It is clear the type of people he idolizes are not of the diplomatic variety.

Public Channel:  Polaris-Public Roleplaying Channel:  Gallente Lounge

Fredfredbug4
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#51 - 2014-03-10 23:59:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Fredfredbug4
TomHorn wrote:
Fredfredbug4 wrote:
when literally everyone except you is content, you should start asking yourself if you're in the wrong.


You are right Fred. To me the treaty which doesnt give the Caldari protection in the solar system but gives protection to the Gallente on the ground has a kind of hypocricy to it.

When your fellow countrymen all seem content you should ask yourself if your wrong. It seems that i am wrong.



The treaty does give Caldari pilots in Luminaire security. As long as you are in decent standing with the Federation you will be allowed to enter and exit at your leisure. In addition, the Gallente Navy and CONCORD will protect you from unwarrented acts of agression against you.

You advocate meritocracy, yes? Then prove you are merited to enter Federal space by repairing your standings.

You advocate the greater good, correct? Then stop trying to push foward an agreement that will inconvenience the majority so a select minority can do what thet want.

Of course, being a Provist means that you probably dont hold those traditional Caldari values.

Watch_ Fred Fred Frederation_ and stop [u]cryptozoologist[/u]! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it!

Desiderya
Blue Canary
Watch This
#52 - 2014-03-11 00:28:54 UTC
Skye Nico wrote:
Desiderya wrote:
How can you make any deal with someone able to massively change his entire agenda by virtue of populism.


You seem to be misunderstanding the function of representative government. Agendas are not set and followed by whim.



Public opinion remains the most unstable foundation one can imagine. It might work for some but certainly not for everyone. Maybe you will allow me to disagree despite understanding the basics of different governing systems.

Ruthlessness is the kindness of the wise.

Ariel Marquette
Doomheim
#53 - 2014-03-11 02:31:25 UTC
If any Caldari are so interested in having a say in how the Federation runs its systems, perhaps they should request to rejoin the Federation.
James Syagrius
Luminaire Sovereign Solutions
#54 - 2014-03-11 02:51:43 UTC  |  Edited by: James Syagrius
Mr.... Horn.

I can’t tell if you have some kind of cognitive impairment or if your just being facetious.

I honestly hope its the latter.

Your time would be better spent contemplating how to maintain the limited sovereignty the State enjoys on Caldari Prime itself.

Not furthering unrealistic State territorial ambitions in the very heart of the Federation.

~chuckles~ I suppose next you will require a jump-gate that provides access to Luminaire directly from the State, so that State citizens who have demonstrated hostility towards the Federations, as evidenced by their standings, won’t be “harassed” getting to or from Caldari Prime.....
Skye Nico
#55 - 2014-03-11 03:02:03 UTC
Desiderya wrote:
despite understanding the basics of different governing systems.

Well.

Desiderya wrote:
Public opinion remains the most unstable foundation one can imagine.


Apparently not.
TomHorn
Horn Brothers Holdings Inc.
#56 - 2014-03-11 03:58:24 UTC
We got to stop pussy footing around with these damn Gallentes. Mens Reppola and the other CEO's of the Mega Corporations their just to damn soft. They need to leave it us nationalists, provists, Templis Dragonaurs , we will get us into a real all out war with them, and set up in such a way that looks like its their fault. Its going to happen sooner or later so lets get on with it.We will storm into Luminaire kickem in the ass. Domesday Gallente Prime. We will get all those Gallente son of bitches of Caldari Prime ship off to Amar Empire as slave labour, or maybe hand them over to Nauplius for his goddam sacrifices. Thats what i would do, but nobody ever listens to me.
Noden Vorpalstar
The Knights of Polaris
#57 - 2014-03-11 04:28:05 UTC
TomHorn wrote:
We got to stop ***** footing around with these damn Gallentes. Mens Reppola and the other CEO's of the Mega Corporations their just to damn soft. They need to leave it us nationalists, provists, Templis Dragonaurs , we will get us into a real all out war with them, and set up in such a way that looks like its their fault. Its going to happen sooner or later so lets get on with it.We will storm into Luminaire kickem in the ass. Domesday Gallente Prime. We will get all those Gallente son of bitches of Caldari Prime ship off to Amar Empire as slave labour, or maybe hand them over to Nauplius for his goddam sacrifices. Thats what i would do, but nobody ever listens to me.


What was all of that earlier about "Dual Sovereignty"? Instead I now find the ranting of a madman and an extremist.

It is clear to me your only agenda, Pilot Horn, is to add coals to the fire and fan the flames of the situation.

Public Channel:  Polaris-Public Roleplaying Channel:  Gallente Lounge

Skye Nico
#58 - 2014-03-11 05:10:11 UTC
TomHorn wrote:
nobody ever listens to me.


Shocking.
Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#59 - 2014-03-11 07:44:42 UTC
TomHorn wrote:
We got to stop ***** footing around with these damn Gallentes. Mens Reppola and the other CEO's of the Mega Corporations their just to damn soft. They need to leave it us nationalists, provists, Templis Dragonaurs , we will get us into a real all out war with them, and set up in such a way that looks like its their fault. Its going to happen sooner or later so lets get on with it.We will storm into Luminaire kickem in the ass. Domesday Gallente Prime. We will get all those Gallente son of bitches of Caldari Prime ship off to Amar Empire as slave labour, or maybe hand them over to Nauplius for his goddam sacrifices.

And this, ladies and gentlemen, is the monster hiding behind the Provist's thin, fragile veneer of civility.

TomHorn wrote:
Thats what i would do, but nobody ever listens to me.

With the attitude you have, is this honestly a surprise to you?

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.

Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Doomheim
#60 - 2014-03-11 10:34:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Veikitamo Gesakaarin
I can find capsuleer provists rather amusing. Being reduced to nothing more than vacuous mouthpieces of the side that lost and watching as they have little recourse but impotent jingoism in public left. True power does not require attempts at public validation, which I suppose is why it's so evident no Provist has any power at all if some of their adherents here on IGS are taken as example.

Stitcher wrote:


We fear something, and I don't know what, nor why. And our fear is making us irrational, driving us to lash out and wound our own armed forces in the name of hardening them to fend of an external military threat that, from where I'm standing, doesn't really appear to exist.



Fear and vigilance are not one and the same.

Some might just be said to be able to recognize that all things in life, and even life itself, is transient. The illusions of sand that no matter how hard we try to hold them in our hands will slip through our fingers. The drums have sounded long ago, and some will march towards the futility of fate, to die their deaths by duty's ditch. It does not matter anymore the reasons or the cause, only to march on, uncaring and unfeeling, looking forward for the day we may at last lay down all our burdens.

War or Peace; Life and Death; these are the questions for those whose hands will wield, not those who are wielded, such as I.

Kurilaivonen|Concern