Player Features and Ideas Discussion

Yes, your math is true, but your conclusion is not. It will be more expensive compared to now, but after this change cheaper to produce on a POS. But more expensive regardless.

Ulterior motive? Uhm ... Killboard padding, griefing, kill mails in general, keeping people out of business, mercenaries contracted by other competitors, hurting people who don't want to listen to the "Come to LS/00S mantra", etc pp. ECM, Hardeners and such don't deter people from attacking your POS, they only encourage them to bring more people and to wardec you again, because you put up a fight and keep them entertained, since they cannot find entertainment with better opponents. Regardless if you don't take the POS down or not, your production is stopped, because onlining these mods means that you have to (keep) offline your production facilities.

I oppose this idea because it does exactly not put everyone on more even footing in industry.

• It favors those who have more money and contacts to spend on defense for such POS,
• it favors those who have the standing to put up a POS in safe places already,
• and it favors those who know how to best set up such a POS, which is knowledge that not many players have and that requires massive investigation of a broken system.

The current system, however, allows everyone (WH people excluded for obvious reasons) to produce things on a very even playfield, with same cost, same effort, same reward and same risk for everyone. While I see the merits of your proposal, and with a better POS system and less "extreme" and stupid players, I would not be as much in disfavor as I am and also could understand your concentration on the positive aspects.

I mean, just take mynna's comment. She completely ignores current realities. We have already had a massive change to industry in the last 2 patches. Odyssey and Inferno introduced the EM for BC and BS, which still makes it completely pointless to produce certain ships, like the Cyclone or Armageddon/Scorpion/Typhoon. While this came from CCP as a means to prevent "overly intelligent" people from exploiting the changes, it prevents the production of these ships ever since and it's already over a year for the BCs, for instance. Your proposed change, while not as drastic as the EM, holds very similar implications for the industrialists: It is going to make production less profitable for all those who don't already have multiple dozens of billions invested in it, effectively keeping new comers out of the game.



I have done so repeatedly in "Change the sov" threads. But hurting big players or affecting all players equally is simply not possible, because they (the bigger players) always have the means to compensate; however, actively favoring big players, which is what this suggestion does in my absolutely not humble opinion, is to be discouraged.

To be frank, you listed many good things IMO. Moving more S&I to POS's allows for PvP interruptions, and if you don't want to deal with it you can keep using Stations from an NPC corp. I don't believe all forms of activity in this game should be on equal footing. Frankly, I would reward those who take risks and those who put in more effort. Running a POS, which requires more effort to maintain, and entails more risks as it may be attacked, should absolutely be more rewarding than working from an NPC corp using NPC stations.



So, you oppose it because it favors working together iwth others, because it favors those who put in the effort to acquire NPC standings, and it favors those who take time and learn our game.

Are you serious?



Why should WH people be excluded? I certainly don't think they should!
Why should the playfield be even? Should those who put in more effort, those who put more at risk, absolutely deserve to be rewarded for it. I can't fathom why you would think otherwise.



When the tiericide happened, it was essential that CCP balance the mineral costs. Putting the extra material costs as "Extra Materials" prevented players from reprocessing ships to produce free materials. I don't understand why you would be upset over this. I can understand being disheartened that the markets haven't fully rebounded from the changes, but that just indicates these ships were way overproduced. As for BC's, I may be wrong, but I'm pretty sure the current cost points exist because people have sources of "below market value" minerals that they produce ships with.



This favors those that put their stuff at risk and have the organization and manpower to operate and protect it. So what. This is a game of empire building, and I have no problems with such mechanics. Perhaps we simply won't find a middle ground.

As I said and a unexpectedly good observation of the market. The market exactly did not do what it should have done. If production prices rise, you'd expect that those who had pre-produced ships, would put them in the market for higher prices to get the extra big profits from the change. Didn't happen. I never indicated I was upset about it, back then I was just surprised that it did not turn out this way, because it is so against what I've experienced with previous changes.
Nice thought on the BCs and underpriced minerals, but that is not the reason for why the Cyclone's price is where it is and why it is pointless to build it... Nice try.

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Yes, and it only favors those. But as I said in the previous post, there is no need for that. At all.

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Unlikely. You represent 1 extreme of this game, and I apparently tend to the other. You don't accept my points as valid, I cannot accept yours the only truth. You want to play this game your way and require others to play it your way, ignoring that this is a sandbox and other players play differently, and I don't want to play this game only in this 1 single way. Only because your extreme is more vocal in this game, doesn't mean that it should have its way all the time.

This post shows that you understand nothing about the balance of industry between hisec and nullsec and you have no clue why nullsec industry doesn't exist outside of super production. You claim that your change is the "first step" to balancing highsec and nullsec industry and you can't even figure out how to balance highsec industry right. In fact, if I hadn't actually PvPed against you in Syndicate I would honestly doubt you have spent a day outside of highsec during your entire time in Eve.

Let me destroy each one of your points individually:
Intro: You are clearly overestimating your your proposal. You have no idea how painful it is to use a POS to do manufacturing. You would have to increase station costs to millions of isk/hr/line to make people willingly change over to a POS. You first have to haul the mats to the POS, get the BPCs out of the research mods and in the station office ready to use, you have to ensure that whatever you are building can be stored in the POS when it is done building until you can pick it up. Oh and the best way to do that is with a freighter. Which is painfully slow. Then you have to ensure the POS is fueled at all times and is far enough away from a hub that people won't want to destroy it because you are a 1 man indy corp.

Or you can do all of that in a matter of seconds in a station. time is isk. I could run a mission and make far more than the cost of the production lines in the time you spent maintaining your production POS with line cost at your proposal. It isn't enough incentive to deal with that headache.

A. Research POS are much more frequent because it is exponentially less painful to have to deal with than a production POS and makes up for the lack of copy lines found in highsec. You change does nothing to make POS S&I any better than Station S&I, only trivially cheaper.

B. You could set up 40 POS to do your manufacturing. And you would spend HOURS making it all work. Or you could do it in a station in far less time. POS production sucks. More POS = more suck.

C. Of course. SOV never switches hands. Fleets don't have the ability to hit CSAAs deep in other people space. Oh wait! They do. And they frequently burn down each others CSAAs. If you can't save your 60 bil isk titan baby then nullsec is not safe.

1. Your proposal does not do what you claim. You would need costs to be FAR higher to even come close to achieving that.

2. To balance highsec and nullsec industry you need to increase the cost of highsec industry. Charters are the best way to increase the cost of highsec POS production.

3. Yeah. Cause deadzoning isn't a thing. And stations aren't flipped all the time. You can always get your assets out of any place in highsec. If you screw up in nullsec you are stuck.

4. HA! That first line is gold. You clearly don't understand the import export markets we have now. Without fixing JFs and compression nullsec industry will never go anywhere because you can just haul in all the minerals you need over actually mining in nullsec. You need the whole picture. Not just a tiny corner.

I am the one who doesn't have any idea? I have far more of an idea than you do. You don't even know the first thing that is wrong with industry in highsec or nullsec. Your post proves it.

+1 for OP.

lol are you serious?



Extra Materials haven't changed industry at all. Stuff that gets overproded is always unprofitable to build. All those things got overproduced, so many of those ships are unprofitable to build. This is a result of player behavior. Not some change in industry.

Get a clue.

More than serious considering the regular visitors and posters in the forum.



Wonderful, you got it. The player behavior is exactly what I mean.



Why would you export stuff? In 00 you are not supposed to bring your stuff to high sec, you are supposed to build for your people. That should reduce your shipping cost quite considerably.

Increasing the line cost 300 fold would not even begin to touch the difference between highsec miners and nullsec miner opportunity cost. Since nullsec miners will not work for peanuts the way 95% afk highsec miners will, local sourced lowend material has always and will continue to be much more expensive than the same minerals in highsec.

If miners make 5 mil an hour less mining the trit needed when they could be mining highends for 5 mil more and shipping it to highsec, the opportunity cost for mining for trit is extremely high when done in bulk for manufacturing.
And any surplus nullsec production has to be shipped to highsec anyway.

As to moongoo, different areas have vastly different ratios of moongoo. You will always produce dozens of times more of a particular material you need and be completely lacking in wide swaths of material types. It is also typically far easier to obtain POS fuel near highsec, making it cheaper and more convenient to continue running POS's near high as well (even with the sov reduction, since JF opportunity costs are massive)

Either you import trit from highsec and export capitals/mods, or you export highends to highsec and build there, incurring fuel costs either way, but the miners in nullsec won't mine trit if there are better ores from an m3 perspective to mine. As such, locally sourced materials will tend to be dictated in price by the most expensive available or to mine. Veldspar purchased locally in null will not cost much less than Arkanor on an m3/isk basis.

100 FOLD IS NOT ENOUGH

OH MY GOD YES

I KEEP SAYING WE NEED THIS AND NOBODY LISTENS!!

and no my caps lock key is not broken, but thanks for asking.

I think we need an ISK sink. In the past 3 years the value of the ISK has dropped more than 50%. Now it's not like real world currency in which the value is completely arbitrary. The ISK sinks and the ISK faucets maintain static values. If there is inflation going on at all, it means the ISK faucets are greater than the ISK sinks. There is a huge region in between in which the ISK will balance at a certain level. Right now it seems to be balancing somewhere toward PLEX being 800-900 mil, but it hasn't got there yet and it'll go even higher if CCP keeps adding ISK faucets without proper ISK sinks.

There's no problem with adding ISK sinks. It's just more ways for people with money to spend it. Once some money gets out of circulation, people become less willing to spend egregrious amounts of currency for goods.