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[Rubicon 1.3] New way of acquiring the Astero, Stratios and Nestor

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Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#261 - 2014-03-01 01:19:01 UTC
Itago Gemulus wrote:
Sgt Ocker wrote:
Solutio Letum wrote:
its still crap even if its cheap, get a rattle... that simple
If what they have done to the Worm is any indication, I'm not sure the Snake is going to have the same charm.



So you saying 8 effective drones (that can actualy take a beating) and 50% dmg bonus to launchers would make the rs bad ?

Wrom is getting stronger drones, more missile dps, more shield, will be faster and keep its current drone bay. Without going into numbers, the same treatment for RS will make it stronger even if you like the charm of 5 drones...

Worm still has the least potential EHP, slowest (ship in class), highest sig, least agility and lost 50% of its drone bay.

The Rattlesnake;
6 effective drones - would put Heavy Drones about on par with a Rookie ship, slow, terrible damage application and easy to kill. Sentries, Great damage potential but a sitting duck for any sniper.
50% damage bonus to 4 Large Launchers (no RHML bonus), not too bad, gives you 6 unbonused launchers on a battleship (around 300 dps using cruise with all 5's).
When the Snake only has 50m drone bandwidth, it won't need 400m drone bay, so like the worm its drone bay size will be reduced accordingly. 200m drone bay, you need at least 4 or 5 of each type of drone your likely to need as losing 1 drone = losing close to 1/3rd of your dps.

Personally, I don't see the Snake getting the exact changes the Worm is, as that would give you the potential (with faction missiles) of around 1100dps with Wardens and cruise (current 869dps), 1500 dps with torps and gardes (current 985).

Not Saying the Snake will be any worse, just very different to what it is now and possibly not as versatile.

If somehow the Snake does get the exact treatment the Worm is up for, there is 1 more reason not to bother with the Nestor...

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
Itago Gemulus
Station Spinners United
#262 - 2014-03-01 02:10:06 UTC
Sgt Ocker wrote:

Worm still has the least potential EHP, slowest (ship in class), highest sig, least agility and lost 50% of its drone bay.

The Rattlesnake;
6 effective drones - would put Heavy Drones about on par with a Rookie ship, slow, terrible damage application and easy to kill. Sentries, Great damage potential but a sitting duck for any sniper.
50% damage bonus to 4 Large Launchers (no RHML bonus), not too bad, gives you 6 unbonused launchers on a battleship (around 300 dps using cruise with all 5's).
When the Snake only has 50m drone bandwidth, it won't need 400m drone bay, so like the worm its drone bay size will be reduced accordingly. 200m drone bay, you need at least 4 or 5 of each type of drone your likely to need as losing 1 drone = losing close to 1/3rd of your dps.

Personally, I don't see the Snake getting the exact changes the Worm is, as that would give you the potential (with faction missiles) of around 1100dps with Wardens and cruise (current 869dps), 1500 dps with torps and gardes (current 985).

Not Saying the Snake will be any worse, just very different to what it is now and possibly not as versatile.

If somehow the Snake does get the exact treatment the Worm is up for, there is 1 more reason not to bother with the Nestor...


Assuming 6 effective on RS vs 8 on Worm is a very negative way of thinking, there is no current indication it hsould loose effective drones.
That 50% dmg bonus is to thermal/kinetic MISSILES, its not spesified onthe Worm so why should it be on the RS ?

Loosing 50% of your drone bay is a small price to pay for only using 2 drones, basicly 50m3 will do the same as 125m3 does now. That means 8 heavy drones (or 4 flights of heavy/sentry) that will have realy good EHP so you can actualy rep them, and good enough to make smartbombing/bombing runs way less effective.

Ofc the RS may get totaly diffrent changes than Worm, but we have NOTHING else to compare it to as thats the only Guristas ship with posted changes...
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#263 - 2014-03-01 07:25:37 UTC
Itago Gemulus wrote:
Sgt Ocker wrote:

Worm still has the least potential EHP, slowest (ship in class), highest sig, least agility and lost 50% of its drone bay.

The Rattlesnake;
6 effective drones - would put Heavy Drones about on par with a Rookie ship, slow, terrible damage application and easy to kill. Sentries, Great damage potential but a sitting duck for any sniper.
50% damage bonus to 4 Large Launchers (no RHML bonus), not too bad, gives you 6 unbonused launchers on a battleship (around 300 dps using cruise with all 5's).
When the Snake only has 50m drone bandwidth, it won't need 400m drone bay, so like the worm its drone bay size will be reduced accordingly. 200m drone bay, you need at least 4 or 5 of each type of drone your likely to need as losing 1 drone = losing close to 1/3rd of your dps.

Personally, I don't see the Snake getting the exact changes the Worm is, as that would give you the potential (with faction missiles) of around 1100dps with Wardens and cruise (current 869dps), 1500 dps with torps and gardes (current 985).

Not Saying the Snake will be any worse, just very different to what it is now and possibly not as versatile.

If somehow the Snake does get the exact treatment the Worm is up for, there is 1 more reason not to bother with the Nestor...


Assuming 6 effective on RS vs 8 on Worm is a very negative way of thinking, there is no current indication it hsould loose effective drones.
That 50% dmg bonus is to thermal/kinetic MISSILES, its not spesified onthe Worm so why should it be on the RS ?

Loosing 50% of your drone bay is a small price to pay for only using 2 drones, basicly 50m3 will do the same as 125m3 does now. That means 8 heavy drones (or 4 flights of heavy/sentry) that will have realy good EHP so you can actualy rep them, and good enough to make smartbombing/bombing runs way less effective.

Ofc the RS may get totaly diffrent changes than Worm, but we have NOTHING else to compare it to as thats the only Guristas ship with posted changes...


I'm no math expert but I'm pretty sure 300% = 6 drones not 8.

Not sure what you mean by the thermal kinetic bonus not being specified on the Worm. The worm gets a bonus to thermal and kinetic missiles, no rocket bonus - If they follow the same trend with the Snake and give it a "50% Missile" bonus, it will not have a bonus to torps but will to RHML.
While the missile/torp bonus will make a big difference to the Snake, I'd like to see it extended to RHML

8 heavies and or sentries is somewhat limiting your viable target scope, my snake currently has 2 flights of sentries, lights, mediums and ecm drones in its drone bay. While repping sentries may be an option, your sitting still as are they, repping heavies is probably not an option, unless you have dedicated logi with you..






My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#264 - 2014-03-01 10:10:08 UTC
You could give the rattlesnake 2000dps and its still not going to be as useful or popular as the pirate ships with asymmetric warfare bonuses.
Machariel : speed + range
Bhaalgorn: deadly neuts + unescapable webs
Vindicator : web lockdown

rattlesnake needs something else.


Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Itago Gemulus
Station Spinners United
#265 - 2014-03-01 13:43:33 UTC
Sgt Ocker wrote:
[quote=Itago Gemulus]

I'm no math expert but I'm pretty sure 300% = 6 drones not 8.

Not sure what you mean by the thermal kinetic bonus not being specified on the Worm. The worm gets a bonus to thermal and kinetic missiles, no rocket bonus - If they follow the same trend with the Snake and give it a "50% Missile" bonus, it will not have a bonus to torps but will to RHML.
While the missile/torp bonus will make a big difference to the Snake, I'd like to see it extended to RHML

8 heavies and or sentries is somewhat limiting your viable target scope, my snake currently has 2 flights of sentries, lights, mediums and ecm drones in its drone bay. While repping sentries may be an option, your sitting still as are they, repping heavies is probably not an option, unless you have dedicated logi with you..



300% bonus means you add that 300% to your already 2 drones, 2+(300%*2) = 2+6 = 8

Did not know that torpedoes was not considered missiles, they do get bonus from any "missile" skill/module so i assumed any missile bonus would work on bouth short an long range missiles.

2 flights of sentries, liths and mediums take 80m3 for 2 drones, by keeping 200m3 (loosing 50% of drones bay like worm) you can easily do 4 flights on the same drones leaving 40m3 or enough for 2 flights of med ecm (or 4 flights of light ecm)

While 2 drones/sentries could be killed they would survive alot longer than current drones, for just EHP that means for every drone you loose you could have lost 4 drones (effective atleast) something that equal out to between 2 and 3 drones currently. Positive thing with that is you will still do full dps until that one drone is dead, and old drones would only be better for before the 3rd drone dies (where you would do 2/5 instead of 1/2 of your drone dps)

So all in all this change would give RS more dps, would take longer to kill off the drones (keeping your max dps for longer) and potensialy more flights of drones in your hold
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#266 - 2014-03-01 17:08:17 UTC
Itago Gemulus wrote:

So all in all this change would give RS more dps, would take longer to kill off the drones (keeping your max dps for longer) and potensialy more flights of drones in your hold


Disagree - the 2 big drones would die quicker than 5 smaller ones because:

1. no need to maneuver to new target.
2. No wasted damage overspill.
3. Fewer drones to track and lock.

In addition, the 2 mega-drone idea would mean that the ship could no longer field 5x EC-900, 5x SW-900 and so on.

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#267 - 2014-03-02 00:30:53 UTC
Itago Gemulus wrote:
Sgt Ocker wrote:
Itago Gemulus wrote:


I'm no math expert but I'm pretty sure 300% = 6 drones not 8.

Not sure what you mean by the thermal kinetic bonus not being specified on the Worm. The worm gets a bonus to thermal and kinetic missiles, no rocket bonus - If they follow the same trend with the Snake and give it a "50% Missile" bonus, it will not have a bonus to torps but will to RHML.
While the missile/torp bonus will make a big difference to the Snake, I'd like to see it extended to RHML

8 heavies and or sentries is somewhat limiting your viable target scope, my snake currently has 2 flights of sentries, lights, mediums and ecm drones in its drone bay. While repping sentries may be an option, your sitting still as are they, repping heavies is probably not an option, unless you have dedicated logi with you..



300% bonus means you add that 300% to your already 2 drones, 2+(300%*2) = 2+6 = 8

Did not know that torpedoes was not considered missiles, they do get bonus from any "missile" skill/module so i assumed any missile bonus would work on bouth short an long range missiles.

2 flights of sentries, liths and mediums take 80m3 for 2 drones, by keeping 200m3 (loosing 50% of drones bay like worm) you can easily do 4 flights on the same drones leaving 40m3 or enough for 2 flights of med ecm (or 4 flights of light ecm)

While 2 drones/sentries could be killed they would survive alot longer than current drones, for just EHP that means for every drone you loose you could have lost 4 drones (effective atleast) something that equal out to between 2 and 3 drones currently. Positive thing with that is you will still do full dps until that one drone is dead, and old drones would only be better for before the 3rd drone dies (where you would do 2/5 instead of 1/2 of your drone dps)

So all in all this change would give RS more dps, would take longer to kill off the drones (keeping your max dps for longer) and potensialy more flights of drones in your hold

Ok, if it is in fact 8, the worm is getting a 150% boost to it DPS?
I would not expect that to be passed on to the other Guristas ships, Rattlesnake with 1680 DPS (@ 110k) ?? Plus with the bonus to hitpoints heavy drones with more EHP than a Firbolg??

Look at the way bonuses are worded, Rockets, Torps, LIght, Heavy, Cruise and RHML all have specific bonuses. On the worm it has been generalized, it also has not been clarified. There is a difference between a rocket a torpedo and a missile, maybe just an oversight on ccp's part.

Again with Drone bonuses, look at the bonus on the Worm, it has a bonus to "light" drones, so putting 1 medium drone (with 5X the EHP of a light) will not give you the bonus. Will they give the Gila a medium drone bonus (it can field heavies and sentries now) or as is hinted in the OP it be restricted to mediums. Same with the Snake, will it get a bonus to 'all' drones or just heavies, sentries. If it only gets the bonus to heavies and sentries your drone bay is going to fill up very fast with support drones. The bonus is to damage and hitpoints, will Ewar drones also get a 300% increase in effectiveness?

With only 2 drones, especially sentries, they will die fast without reps. That is where your DPS is, what do you think anyone your fighting is going to target, the ship or its DPS?
Using Heavies, their speed is the biggest issue, they may catch an AB Cruiser and above but anything with a bit of speed your sheer outa luck.

Again it seems CCP has set off on a path that has not been fully thought through.
Speculation is nothing compared to clear concise information,which we just don't have.

[quote]CCP Rise;
but for now just look at the Worm and let us know if it seems fun and we'll go from there.

This didn't work out well for RLML, what about past efforts gives hope it will for the Gila and Snake?

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#268 - 2014-03-02 01:12:08 UTC
A high damage "two heavy drone" battleship will likely fail as:
- heavies even with high DPS, high HP and a speed boost are still only suited to brawling
- you lose the various salvager/ewar etc options limiting your ship fit

Aside from which, if you want an interesting brawler with drones and 50 m3 bandwidth you are better off boosting the light and mediums. A battleshipship that can field 5 light drones with 300% damage and HP suddenly looks interesting.

Suggestion:

For a brawler ship, consider applying the 300% bonus to all drones but limiting the bandwidth to 50m3.
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#269 - 2014-03-02 01:16:54 UTC
Sgt Ocker wrote:


Quote:
CCP Rise;
but for now just look at the Worm and let us know if it seems fun and we'll go from there.

This didn't work out well for RLML, what about past efforts gives hope it will for the Gila and Snake?




The evil Santa thing of giving away overpowered toys and then taking them back a month later may be Icelandic tradition or something but it does not make for happy capsuleers.

New players in particular may well dedicate their first 6 months training for something that gets nerfed just as they finally can fly it.

Please try and avoid the "release something that is OP then later nerf it to obscurity" cycle.
Itago Gemulus
Station Spinners United
#270 - 2014-03-02 02:20:37 UTC
[quote=Sgt Ocker
Ok, if it is in fact 8, the worm is getting a 150% boost to it DPS?
I would not expect that to be passed on to the other Guristas ships, Rattlesnake with 1680 DPS (@ 110k) ?? Plus with the bonus to hitpoints heavy drones with more EHP than a Firbolg??

Look at the way bonuses are worded, Rockets, Torps, LIght, Heavy, Cruise and RHML all have specific bonuses. On the worm it has been generalized, it also has not been clarified. There is a difference between a rocket a torpedo and a missile, maybe just an oversight on ccp's part.

[/quote]

No idea where you get 150% boost from, it already have 5 effective drones so its a 60% boost to drone dps, and 50% bonus to missile dps. Something that should work out to between 50% and 60% total dps bonus (to lazy to do the math atm)

I was sure "missile" bonus used to be on ships like raven/golem and most missile ships, but it looks like that have been changed :(
The diffrence between rocket/torpedo and missile is still that a rocket/torpedo IS a for of missile (more spesific than just missile)
where a missile would be rocket/torpedo, light/cruise missile and every other missile.
Worm may have gotten a general bonus to all missiles since it cant realy fit anything larger than frigate launchers anyway, but not limiting it to rocket or light missile does still lean toward long+short range missile systems for Gila/RS.
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#271 - 2014-03-02 13:49:10 UTC
Itago Gemulus wrote:

No idea where you get 150% boost from, it already have 5 effective drones so its a 60% boost to drone dps, and 50% bonus to missile dps. Something that should work out to between 50% and 60% total dps bonus (to lazy to do the math atm)

I was sure "missile" bonus used to be on ships like raven/golem and most missile ships, but it looks like that have been changed :(
The diffrence between rocket/torpedo and missile is still that a rocket/torpedo IS a for of missile (more spesific than just missile)
where a missile would be rocket/torpedo, light/cruise missile and every other missile.
Worm may have gotten a general bonus to all missiles since it cant realy fit anything larger than frigate launchers anyway, but not limiting it to rocket or light missile does still lean toward long+short range missile systems for Gila/RS.

Sorry your right.. It is about 60% increase but really is a frigate with 300DPS and drones with the EHP of a Frigate really the way to go?

The last balance changes saw a lot of missiles bonuses made specific. Some have no bonuses to RHML, RLML, some have 1 of 2 bonuses, Cruise, RHML, Torps, have been given specific bonuses. Look at the bonuses on the Raven and Typhoon, Snake has no bonus to heavy missiles. Gila currently has 50% velocity to lights, if it gets a 50% damage bonus to lights with the re-balance, giving it 6 effective launchers, there may be a role for RLML.

A hint from CCP as to when these "proposed" changes will be available on the test server would be nice. I hope it is not going to be another RLML, RHML release with no testing on sisi prior to release. Summer (release date) is getting close, so unless player feedback is totally irrelevant, getting them onto the test server should happen soon.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
Itago Gemulus
Station Spinners United
#272 - 2014-03-02 13:54:23 UTC
I totaly agree thast the proposed changes should hit test server asap, and seeing as there are very few critics in that thread we should see them on test server sooner rather than later.

Worm beeing to good or not is irrelevant to this thread atm, changes are not yet on test server and most likely Gila will have its pass before we get to the RS (winter or next summer is my guess)
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#273 - 2014-03-02 16:32:09 UTC
Itago Gemulus wrote:
I totaly agree thast the proposed changes should hit test server asap, and seeing as there are very few critics in that thread we should see them on test server sooner rather than later.

Worm beeing to good or not is irrelevant to this thread atm, changes are not yet on test server and most likely Gila will have its pass before we get to the RS (winter or next summer is my guess)

Agreed.
I do think though that any changes to pirate faction battleships is going to have a huge impact on the already iffy place the Nestor will be trying to take in the lineup.
Without something to make it stand out from others in class (which it currently does not have) the way in which it can be obtained is somewhat irrelevant

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
Arthur Aihaken
Kenshin Academia.
Kenshin Shogunate.
#274 - 2014-03-04 17:19:59 UTC
So when are these kicking in? The Nestor is still hovering around $1.5-billion...

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Brutor Trash
Doomheim
#275 - 2014-03-05 06:05:54 UTC
SOMEONE NERF CCP RISE
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#276 - 2014-03-05 23:10:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Hasikan Miallok
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
So when are these kicking in? The Nestor is still hovering around $1.5-billion...


Don't expect any rapid change in price. The announcement has probably effectively killed Nestor production from SOE BPCs (Astero and Stratios give same returns and turnover quickly so less risk of getting "caught" with those if the price drops).

The initial contract price for "found" Nestor BPC is likely to float just under the SOE cost for a while until supply of the cheaper ones puts a downward pressure on the market. Even if people sell the BPC relatively cheaply, experienced manufacturers are unlikely to massive undercut the current stable price.

Its a relatively "shallow" market though so price changes will occur, just not the first week.
Arthur Aihaken
Kenshin Academia.
Kenshin Shogunate.
#277 - 2014-03-06 03:06:50 UTC
Hasikan Miallok wrote:
Don't expect any rapid change in price. The announcement has probably effectively killed Nestor production from SOE BPCs (Astero and Stratios give same returns and turnover quickly so less risk of getting "caught" with those if the price drops).

I'm not even expecting any gradual change in price until the Nestor is revamped into something ultimately more useful.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Sintiar Loffwagea
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#278 - 2014-03-06 17:03:42 UTC
isn't it's will be bashing SOE Nestor industrials at this currently states ? . it's would be other way that make Nestor more isk/performance
Harrissaran
Blind Leading the Blind
#279 - 2014-03-08 06:57:07 UTC
So the Grind for my Nestor... hrmm, just like a RL prestige car, it looses its market value the minute you drive it off the forecourt!!

oh well!

('least it will be more cheep to replace when I loose it in a drunken fumble of button mashing!)
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#280 - 2014-03-08 07:44:04 UTC
Sgt Ocker wrote:

I'm no math expert but I'm pretty sure 300% = 6 drones not 8.




You are right, you are no math expert

100% = x2, 200% = x3, 300% = x4

4x2=8

If there are any other pre-algebra level math questions I'm here all day.