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Warfare & Tactics

 
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FW farming.... It's getting REALLY lame.
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Taoist Dragon
Okata Syndicate
#181 - 2014-03-05 21:45:10 UTC
30s timer reset will instantly stop a lot of the farmers. They farm because it is easy and low risk.

A dedicated farmer cannot be interfered with over the longer term. They have multiple plex within a couple of jumps that they can just warp between slowly running down the plex's when a WT or pirate chases them around. The end result? Takes marginally longer to complete them but they still do and get the LP payout.

The problem is not the farming. They are NEEDED for FW or it will pretty much destroy what balance there is in FW (FW doesn't have the player base to self balance by pvp'er alone). The issue is that there is no incentive to actually stay and fight over a plex if farming LP is all you are interested in.

If you reset the timer to neutral (kinda like a beacon cooldown) then you have to stay and defend if you want LP and not to have been wasting your time already spend running it down.

This will not affect the back system farmers as they will still pretty much be able to farm as no one bothers to plex those systems generally. but the 'active' pvp systems will simple see the farmers leave. You'll probably get everyone complaining that low sec is dead then! Shocked

That is the Way, the Tao.

Balance is everything.
Ovv Topik
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#182 - 2014-03-05 23:46:57 UTC
This is what a farmer said to me tonight when I chased his quadruple stabbed @ss out of a plex:

"Second Salesman > Ovv Topik trying to watch tv, stop interrupting :D"

Great job CCP! Working as intended.

"Nicknack, I'm in a shoe in space, on my computer, in my house, with a cup of coffee, in't that something." - Fly Safe PopPaddi. o7

Brutor Trash
Doomheim
#183 - 2014-03-06 08:15:47 UTC
CCP PLZ DONT NERF MY FARMER ALTS. YOU ARE ALL JUST MAD LOL.
Colt Blackhawk
Doomheim
#184 - 2014-03-06 08:18:00 UTC
Brutor Trash wrote:
CCP PLZ DONT NERF MY FARMER ALTS. YOU ARE ALL JUST MAD LOL.



CCP could prolly ban 500 accounts for botting or using isboxer in fw^^
But we all know they care a ****.
Everywhere floppy bear ear mission runners quadboxing first shuttle and then tengus or cerberus etc....
Farmland. Total farmland.

[09:04:53] Ashira Twilight > Plant the f****** amarr flag and s*** on their smoking wrecks.
Brutor Trash
Doomheim
#185 - 2014-03-06 08:22:31 UTC
CLOAK STABBED BANTAMS NET ME NEARLY 800 MILL ISK A DAY, THIS IS COUNTING TIME LOST AND ISK DESTROYED FROM AFKING IN PLEX WHILE WATCHING MOVIES.

THIS IS HOW I PLEX MY ACCOUNTS. THANKS FOR FREE GAMEPLAY CCP. I FOR ONE APPRECIATE IT UNLIKE THESE GUYS. PLEASE NEVER CHANGE IT.
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#186 - 2014-03-06 09:29:22 UTC
Bad Messenger wrote:
So you want to remove reward from actual fw play and leave all isk just to farmers. excellent proposal.

but NO.

The draw of the teat is strong and has brainwashed even old-timers, so I understand where you are coming from and why you went there in the first place .. personally can't stand the stink of that place, but then again I was always a bit "off" :)

Was farming an issue before the free ISK patch?
Were FW pilots living hand-to-mouth before the free ISK patch?

Invasion 101: When Looting a targets valuables (ex. Art objects) you are not contributing to the war effort except in cases where said valuables have military applications (ex. GUNS!).

You'd still be able to get your hugely deflated LP doing "actual FW play", just not contribute to the war effort at the same time. Seems a lot more logical than the current system if you ask me .. FW is the only place where one can engage in a potentially loss generating activity and make money at the same time, it is just wrong.

Just came up with another idea that could be fun and ought to produce some extra hunting all on its own:
- When a timer reaches zero there is NO LP paid out, instead physical tokens are dropped in a can.
- Tokens can only be banked in an appropriate station (ie. 24th for Amarr) or to be proper evil, in a militia-wide designated HQ station.
- Rank can only be gained by killing human enemies, as it bloody well should have been from start!.
- If a pilot acquires a token of another militia, it can be exchanged to his own militias LP in an appropriate station at rates determined by his rank, up to but not exceeding 75% of value.

That should make a dent in farming, if nothing else it would make hunting the damn things a little less pointless.
Bad Messenger
Rehabilitation Clinic
#187 - 2014-03-06 16:45:57 UTC
Veshta Yoshida wrote:
Bad Messenger wrote:
So you want to remove reward from actual fw play and leave all isk just to farmers. excellent proposal.

but NO.

The draw of the teat is strong and has brainwashed even old-timers, so I understand where you are coming from and why you went there in the first place .. personally can't stand the stink of that place, but then again I was always a bit "off" :)

Was farming an issue before the free ISK patch?
Were FW pilots living hand-to-mouth before the free ISK patch?

Invasion 101: When Looting a targets valuables (ex. Art objects) you are not contributing to the war effort except in cases where said valuables have military applications (ex. GUNS!).

You'd still be able to get your hugely deflated LP doing "actual FW play", just not contribute to the war effort at the same time. Seems a lot more logical than the current system if you ask me .. FW is the only place where one can engage in a potentially loss generating activity and make money at the same time, it is just wrong.

Just came up with another idea that could be fun and ought to produce some extra hunting all on its own:
- When a timer reaches zero there is NO LP paid out, instead physical tokens are dropped in a can.
- Tokens can only be banked in an appropriate station (ie. 24th for Amarr) or to be proper evil, in a militia-wide designated HQ station.
- Rank can only be gained by killing human enemies, as it bloody well should have been from start!.
- If a pilot acquires a token of another militia, it can be exchanged to his own militias LP in an appropriate station at rates determined by his rank, up to but not exceeding 75% of value.

That should make a dent in farming, if nothing else it would make hunting the damn things a little less pointless.


current system is fine, CCP pays lp for those who attack enemy systems and for those who defend them by plexing. Reward is keeping systems flipping all the time and plexes have possible pvp targets all the time.

Thing that those targets try to escape make them different as normal rats you kill in missions. It seems that people want just shoot sitting ducks and say it is pvp.

Only thing i would change is defencive lp amount on nearly uncontested systems, there should be bigger reward for those, maybe 10% minimum of normal amount or something like that. Now those who want to keep systems on their hand do that work practically without rewards.

Also farming is possible with alts because there is no player efforts to create anything bigger to limit that. Personally i have thought about different methods and organisations that could do that but i am not so interested about bigger projects at this time.

Militia seems to be more interested about playing with 0.0 alliances and pirates and ganking their assets than playing actual FW in plexes.
Silivar Karkun
Doomheim
#188 - 2014-03-06 17:02:47 UTC
Veskrashen wrote:
Silivar Karkun wrote:
Danny John-Peter wrote:
I don't know much about the mission side of things but I was thinking about a way of improving the Plexing system and I had a thought, could beacons be given EHP, be destructable, not much EHP either say 10-15K for a Novice/Small, 30K for a Medium and 60-70K for a Large.

This would mean that anybody could come into your plex and remove it, preventing you from acquiring the LP if you chose not to fight to defend it.

( EHP numbers simply to illustrate an example, would obviously be subject to balance)


thats a very interesting concept, kinda similar to the ESS, while active in system the thing will give LP to the militians in the whole system, but can be taken down by the enemy militia, so obligues players to group together in order to keep their LP making machine in place.....

no reinforced mode BTW......the thing goes down or not......it depends on the players......the amount of LP given is well, i dont know how much.....


An LP ESS would be a very, very, very interesting thing indeed. Especially if it gave tags that could be turned in to militia agents to get faction-appropriate LPs.

Would be an awesome way for low tier factions to steal LP from their higher tier opponents... Talk about griefability!


the idea is more of something similar to a sovereignty structure or whatever is called, faction militia A puts it online in a contested system and this starts to increase the LP rewards over time, it doenst have a tag system nor has any type of bubble, just increases the LP rewards for players that are doing active FW stuff (killing enemy militians, doing combat plexes, taking down other beacons like that one)....destroying a beacon would give another earn of LP and would be shared between the people who helped take it down......

the idea is to eliminate passive plexes and put actual warfare in FW......
Andre Vauban
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#189 - 2014-03-06 17:38:48 UTC
Bad Messenger wrote:

Only thing i would change is defencive lp amount on nearly uncontested systems, there should be bigger reward for those, maybe 10% minimum of normal amount or something like that. Now those who want to keep systems on their hand do that work practically without rewards.


I really like this idea. This may be a way to solve the problem without any other changes. Simply reward close to max payout for defensive plexing systems between 0.1% and 10% contested. Then do the normal reduced payout from 10.01% to vulnerable. Now at least we can get paid when we kill the farmer that just contested our home system.

.
Rahelis
Doomheim
#190 - 2014-03-06 18:27:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Rahelis
I hate stabbed cloaky farmers - and I would remove FW missions - althrough I like the isk. I would make ship kills in FW the main income.

But eve is full of farming. We have a five layers farming system in Eve.

Bottom layers:
L4 missions in high sec are the most demanding - if you look at time and effort - and pay worst. Incursions pay better but are still the same as l4s, when done in high sec.

Fourth layer:
Whole null sec is a big farming system that is absolutly lame due to broken games mechanics - but it pays better than high sec missions and is much safer than high sec.
So null sec is in fact super high sec.
That is why the worst players with the worst skills live in null sec - simply look at the "anti-cloak" threads in this forum.

Third layer:
Station "trading" - which is basically scamming. Scams do not fall under Concord - because killing someones assets in space is a crime, killing assets through scams are considerd intelligent - I do not know why. The alt system makes scamming easy - it would be not so easy if trade skills would have higher SP costs.

Second layers:
FW missions are stupidly simple and can compare to plex farming - but you can not afk faction warfare missions. Plex farming is dangerous enough - only the stabbed cloaky farmers break the game mechanic. Whole FW is way more complex that l4 in high sec or null sec. In fact FW is the only thing in EVe worth playing.

Top layer
WHs are the best in eve - no doubt - when it comes to isk at the first sight The problem with WHs is that CCP forgot to make anchoring of POS in WHs impossible - they where so dumb to simply include that in the code.
WHs themselves are high risk and high pay - but the residients in WHs ruin the formula. If you count the extreme logistics in - WH have no belts and no ice - the income through whs is under that of FW.
Veskrashen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#191 - 2014-03-06 18:35:40 UTC
Andre Vauban wrote:
Bad Messenger wrote:

Only thing i would change is defencive lp amount on nearly uncontested systems, there should be bigger reward for those, maybe 10% minimum of normal amount or something like that. Now those who want to keep systems on their hand do that work practically without rewards.


I really like this idea. This may be a way to solve the problem without any other changes. Simply reward close to max payout for defensive plexing systems between 0.1% and 10% contested. Then do the normal reduced payout from 10.01% to vulnerable. Now at least we can get paid when we kill the farmer that just contested our home system.


I'd prefer a flat modifier for defensive plexing that's not dependent on contested percentage. That way you're not penalized or incentivized for deplexing at any particular point on the curve. 50ish% or so would seem fair, maybe a bit more. I'd also enjoy a modifier to deplexing based on system upgrade level - say 20% times upgrade level? or 25% + 10% per upgrade level?

After all, that would let you a) choose which systems are important, and b) reward defending those systems appropriately.

We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..."
Lugia3
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#192 - 2014-03-06 20:21:57 UTC
Here is the solution: Get an alt with 3 hours of training into a dual-prop stabbed Atron. Fly around and look for sites with friendlies in them. When you find one, write down the time you need to be back and continue on your way. Warp back in with a few seconds on the clock and hold your session timer so they can't lock you. Enjoy effortless ISK.

Made around 100 million doing that the other day, for the first time. Could probably make way more if I had experience in FW.

Also, if a farmer is sitting stationary near the edge of the LP sphere, bump him out when the timer hit's ~15 seconds. If done right, he won't get anything and you will take all. Pirate

"CCP Dolan is full of shit." - CCP Bettik
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#193 - 2014-03-06 20:57:36 UTC  |  Edited by: X Gallentius
Veskrashen wrote:
Andre Vauban wrote:
Bad Messenger wrote:

Only thing i would change is defencive lp amount on nearly uncontested systems, there should be bigger reward for those, maybe 10% minimum of normal amount or something like that. Now those who want to keep systems on their hand do that work practically without rewards.


I really like this idea. This may be a way to solve the problem without any other changes. Simply reward close to max payout for defensive plexing systems between 0.1% and 10% contested. Then do the normal reduced payout from 10.01% to vulnerable. Now at least we can get paid when we kill the farmer that just contested our home system.


I'd prefer a flat modifier for defensive plexing that's not dependent on contested percentage. That way you're not penalized or incentivized for deplexing at any particular point on the curve. 50ish% or so would seem fair, maybe a bit more. I'd also enjoy a modifier to deplexing based on system upgrade level - say 20% times upgrade level? or 25% + 10% per upgrade level?

After all, that would let you a) choose which systems are important, and b) reward defending those systems appropriately.

Why reward a guy for defending a backwater system nobody goes to more than a system that is under real duress?

Defensive plexing a system under attack adds content. Defensive plexing where nobody is active does not. Offensive (agressive) always adds more content than defense (passive play)

I think they have the defensive LP at about the right level.
Bad Messenger
Rehabilitation Clinic
#194 - 2014-03-07 00:57:53 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
Veskrashen wrote:
Andre Vauban wrote:
Bad Messenger wrote:

Only thing i would change is defencive lp amount on nearly uncontested systems, there should be bigger reward for those, maybe 10% minimum of normal amount or something like that. Now those who want to keep systems on their hand do that work practically without rewards.


I really like this idea. This may be a way to solve the problem without any other changes. Simply reward close to max payout for defensive plexing systems between 0.1% and 10% contested. Then do the normal reduced payout from 10.01% to vulnerable. Now at least we can get paid when we kill the farmer that just contested our home system.


I'd prefer a flat modifier for defensive plexing that's not dependent on contested percentage. That way you're not penalized or incentivized for deplexing at any particular point on the curve. 50ish% or so would seem fair, maybe a bit more. I'd also enjoy a modifier to deplexing based on system upgrade level - say 20% times upgrade level? or 25% + 10% per upgrade level?

After all, that would let you a) choose which systems are important, and b) reward defending those systems appropriately.

Why reward a guy for defending a backwater system nobody goes to more than a system that is under real duress?

Defensive plexing a system under attack adds content. Defensive plexing where nobody is active does not. Offensive (agressive) always adds more content than defense (passive play)

I think they have the defensive LP at about the right level.


If you want to keep system you are not letting it to 75% contested, you want to keep it uncontested so you have time to react serious attacks as much as possible.
Tubercle
The Exchange Collective
Solyaris Chtonium
#195 - 2014-03-07 01:37:13 UTC
With regards to plexing, apologies if this has been proposed before (can't be bothered to read 10 pages tbh!), make the plex button emit a warp scramble field with a 30km radius ala the ESS. If you want the isk be ready to pvpvp....vp?
IbanezLaney
The Church of Awesome
#196 - 2014-03-07 02:08:57 UTC
Lugia3 wrote:
Here is the solution: Get an alt with 3 hours of training into a dual-prop stabbed Atron. Fly around and look for sites with friendlies in them. When you find one, write down the time you need to be back and continue on your way. Warp back in with a few seconds on the clock and hold your session timer so they can't lock you. Enjoy effortless ISK.

Made around 100 million doing that the other day, for the first time. Could probably make way more if I had experience in FW.

Also, if a farmer is sitting stationary near the edge of the LP sphere, bump him out when the timer hit's ~15 seconds. If done right, he won't get anything and you will take all. Pirate



But with frigates you will usually miss the bump and end up outside the radius when the timer gets to 0 and he will get all of the LP.
(Which is maybe why you suggested this)


Its not hard to bring a neutral alt in and just kill them/force them to warp off. (They are usually stabbed so pushing them out is a good result). Or convo someone you know in the opposite militia and ask them come and kill the farmer.
(Bat phones can cross militias - we don't all hate each other just because we are on the opposite sides of FW)

You can also approach and lock anyone as they enter if you suspect of being a cloaky farmer who will de-cloak when a few seconds are left.
If they can't cloak - they usually wont stay.

https://soundcloud.com/ibanezlaney
ALUCARD 1208
Jerkasaurus Wrecks Inc.
Sedition.
#197 - 2014-03-07 06:42:54 UTC
Rahelis wrote:
I hate stabbed cloaky farmers - and I would remove FW missions - althrough I like the isk. I would make ship kills in FW the main income.

.


This does not work and was tryd before and is super exploitable just ask goons

BEBOPS ODE TO PERUNGA
Jared Lennox
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#198 - 2014-03-07 07:54:33 UTC
CCP forgets this game is a PVP game sometimes and decides to nerf high sec more instead of dealing with issues like this, giving bots and bot aspirants more options and tools every new patch. Good job

http://www.minerbumping.com/p/the-code.html
Deerin
East Trading Co Ltd
#199 - 2014-03-07 08:29:07 UTC
Implement fast on field rollback timer:

Timer should run 3x(5x? 6-Current tier?) faster to neutral state. In no case should timer be run without anybody on field. No automatic timer. Also timers should be visible outside plexes! It was promised!!!!

Keep FW mission payouts at tier 2 values:

Missions do not affect warzone control, they shouldn't get affected by it either. Also it is about time for khanid army to help amarr militia npc's. We have it quite easy atm in the FW missions. It is unbalanced and needs to be looked at. Balance races ability to run FW missions.

Increase LP from PVP combat:

ALUCARD 1208 wrote:

This does not work and was tryd before and is super exploitable just ask goons


I believe it can still work. Remove stuff in cargohold and storyline mods from LP equation, add a cap to LP gained per kill, which changes according to ship type and you are mostly set. Also make have a "reverse" gain from tiers. At tier 1 I should get most LP from killing enemies (as in tier 5 now).

One more thing. We have seen some larger power blocks like s2n, agony, evoke, test etc join the FW for some periods. Whenever they join, it is always Caldari/Amarr side as no big entity can afford abandoning Jita. Although this doesn't really disturb me much, it is a minor unbalance problem and I can't think of any solutions to it. Sandbox decided Jita as central hub for New Eden. So I blame sandbox for it.
Colt Blackhawk
Doomheim
#200 - 2014-03-07 08:46:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Colt Blackhawk
Deerin wrote:
Implement fast on field rollback timer:

Timer should run 3x(5x? 6-Current tier?) faster to neutral state. In no case should timer be run without anybody on field. No automatic timer. Also timers should be visible outside plexes! It was promised!!!!

Keep FW mission payouts at tier 2 values:

Missions do not affect warzone control, they shouldn't get affected by it either. Also it is about time for khanid army to help amarr militia npc's. We have it quite easy atm in the FW missions. It is unbalanced and needs to be looked at. Balance races ability to run FW missions.

Increase LP from PVP combat:

ALUCARD 1208 wrote:

This does not work and was tryd before and is super exploitable just ask goons


I believe it can still work. Remove stuff in cargohold and storyline mods from LP equation, add a cap to LP gained per kill, which changes according to ship type and you are mostly set. Also make have a "reverse" gain from tiers. At tier 1 I should get most LP from killing enemies (as in tier 5 now).

One more thing. We have seen some larger power blocks like s2n, agony, evoke, test etc join the FW for some periods. Whenever they join, it is always Caldari/Amarr side as no big entity can afford abandoning Jita. Although this doesn't really disturb me much, it is a minor unbalance problem and I can't think of any solutions to it. Sandbox decided Jita as central hub for New Eden. So I blame sandbox for it.


Deerin,
although you are right in some points you are wrong concerning the point that bigger alliances joined because of jita.
Plus we have already seen that bigger 0.0 alliances fail like hell in lowsec. For example: Nulli was free kills for you, CVA was even bigger fail. We would be happy if Nulli would join Minmatar. Easy and free kills.
Nulli joined amarr because they wanted Napocs and because amarr prices were ridigiously high at that time. Agony joined amarr because thy like to fight outnumbered. Agony also was the only one 0.0 entity that didn´t derp around like the others.
Evoke... well they wanted to make LP. Yes they farmed like mad. I remember that guys of them decloaked regularly in plexes in second 3 to whore lp^^
And farming for gals isn´t possible from what I have heard.
Test again joined caldari for probably two reasons: Gals have too good connections with the goons and again: LP.
Actually no 0.0 entity joined the minmatar because you simply farmed too much and broke your market.
Main reason for this is also that minmatar missions are stupidly simple. I have made me a minnie mission bomber alt so I know it. Minnie missions on level4 are like amarr ones on level3. Amarr and caldari are mostly on par concerning mission difficulty.
Gallente--->no clue. But I have heard they are almost undoable.
What you forget: As I mentioned pve technically amarr missions are a lot harder than minnie ones. BUT!
You forget the pvp factor. Minnies are powercarebears. Point.
When minnies had level 4 I ran some missions with my minnie bomber alt and it was ridigiously tough because amarrians were hunting minnie bombers like mad.
Now amarr are level 4 and inbetween I ran maybe 20 missions or so in the last 3 weeks. It happened really only once (!!!) that a minnie tried to hunt me. That is making amarr missions easier than minnie ones actually.
Sorry for wall of text :F

[09:04:53] Ashira Twilight > Plant the f****** amarr flag and s*** on their smoking wrecks.