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Drug Booster Balancing issues

First post First post
Author
Takeshi Yamato
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#281 - 2011-11-28 07:52:45 UTC
Boosters are pretty much fine as they are. The moment they become safe to use and easy to acquire, they become mandatory just like faction ammo. I'm sure those with endless ISK supply wouldn't mind, but the rest of us wouldn't appreciate it.
Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
#282 - 2011-11-28 07:55:38 UTC
Grath Telkin wrote:

So you would use all 3 booster slots in a fight?


Most of the time, no. The third slot is solely for Crash, which obviously doesn't affect non-missile ships.

Problem is, there also aren't many ships anymore that deal effective damage split between missiles and turrets, so the need for a third separate slot is non-existent. There really should just be a two-slot system with the 4 defensive boosters and the 4 offensive boosters.

This is definitely an area that could use adjustment. 3 slots is unnecessary, though I do know a lot of pilots that take advantage of two booster slots at a time during an emergency. Each is considered individually though, usually only popped when necessary to hold a tank or kill off a target in time.

With the Tornado and such coming out, one such situation would be to use Mindflood to aid in kiting a target (none of the side effects would effect, say, a MWD autocannon fit with a shield buffer) while keeping a Drop on hand for when something is approaching you and your guns cant track. A well-timed Drop boost could mean frying a frigate before it gets to scram range - which could save your ship even if you take a side effect and ultimately need to bugger out and recuperate.

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary

Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#283 - 2011-11-28 10:26:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Grath Telkin
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:

With the Tornado and such coming out, one such situation would be to use Mindflood to aid in kiting a target (none of the side effects would effect, say, a MWD autocannon fit with a shield buffer) while keeping a Drop on hand for when something is approaching you and your guns cant track. A well-timed Drop boost could mean frying a frigate before it gets to scram range - which could save your ship even if you take a side effect and ultimately need to bugger out and recuperate.



This would never happen.


I never got these pretend scenarios where you have all this time to do all these crazy things.


If a frigate breaks inside 50km on the new BC's, they're dead, it doesn't matter if its a rifter or a daredevil, you are boned.


I went through a stack of 100 of most of the BC's, you aren't getting that "oh hey i better use my drop booster before that frigate gets to me" because by the time you've ran that thought through your head he's closed 50km+ and no amount of drop will help you.

Anybody who's been testing for the last 3 weeks knows that.

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.

Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
#284 - 2011-11-28 11:31:15 UTC
Grath Telkin wrote:


If a frigate breaks inside 50km on the new BC's, they're dead, it doesn't matter if its a rifter or a daredevil, you are boned.


I went through a stack of 100 of most of the BC's, you aren't getting that "oh hey i better use my drop booster before that frigate gets to me" because by the time you've ran that thought through your head he's closed 50km+ and no amount of drop will help you.

Anybody who's been testing for the last 3 weeks knows that.


The new BC's are, with the exception of the Talos, primarily gank boats. If you're warping a fleet in to fire off a few volleys before warping out (like a glorified thrasher gang), you're not as much worried about speed and tank as you are with getting full damage out of those few shots. Drop can make the difference between full and partial damage if the target is moving, size dependent of course.

There are lots of "what if" situations regarding boosters. You've done your homework on the test server, and the community is better off because of your shared experiences. The fact my frigate example is a stretch doesn't mean its not a useful booster to use while flying the new BC's for other reasons as well, and the point I was making is that multi-booster scenarios exist. They certainly are used on tranquility that way, and there's no reason they wont be used on the new BC's for the same reasons, as long as various factors (including side effect risks) are taken into consideration.

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary

S0NFANNA
Cause For Concern
#285 - 2011-11-28 18:49:08 UTC
Grath Telkin wrote:

So you would use all 3 booster slots in a fight?


No I have never been in a situation where I have wanted 3 boosters used, but whats your point?
2 is the most I have ever used at one time.
Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#286 - 2011-11-28 20:29:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Grath Telkin
S0NFANNA wrote:
Grath Telkin wrote:

So you would use all 3 booster slots in a fight?


but whats your point?


That ever trying to use all 3 boosters, even with max skills, is virtually suicide.


That because its based on a random number generator is a broken mechanic.


That because its CCP this will likely never be revisited again, we had a change that made using all 3 boosters at least possible, even if it wasn't something that everybody would do.


That we had a change that REMOVED a portion of the game that was based on chance and randomness.




EDIT: Also, assuming they DID become 'must have' items, so what?

A warp disruptor and propulsion mod are must have items for PVP, hence the Retribution being the most useless PVP frigate in the game. People have been begging for a 2nd midslot for FIVE LONG YEARS, and probably before that even.

Why is a 'must have pvp item' suddenly a bad thing when it comes to boosters?

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.

Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
#287 - 2011-11-28 20:52:26 UTC
Grath Telkin wrote:

Why is a 'must have pvp item' suddenly a bad thing when it comes to boosters?


It's a bad thing because you've already stated that you're fine with 30 mil standard boosters and 500 mil strong boosters. At those prices, an item you'd be foolish not to have around and use all the time, will be inaccessible to a great majority of players who can't afford to spend 30 mil for a couple of hours for PvP just to stay competitive.

You're essentially advocating a pay-to-win strategy, based on your being comfortable with them simultaneously being "must-haves" as well as quadrupling in price.

PvP outcomes should continue to rely on the skill of the pilot, not the size of his wallet.

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary

Freyya
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#288 - 2011-11-28 21:14:35 UTC
Ok, i might be missing something but i'm on SiSi right now and booster side effects are very much still in play. They have not been removed (or added back) in the latest build of today.

There is now however a bug in showing what side effects are present i think. Showing turret falloff and missile velocity penalries whil i also have a 25% drop in armor EHP. That one is NOT showing in the side effects list...
Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
#289 - 2011-11-28 21:19:44 UTC
Freyya wrote:
Ok, i might be missing something but i'm on SiSi right now and booster side effects are very much still in play. They have not been removed (or added back) in the latest build of today.

There is now however a bug in showing what side effects are present i think. Showing turret falloff and missile velocity penalries whil i also have a 25% drop in armor EHP. That one is NOT showing in the side effects list...


No, everything is as it should be, CCP decided not to implement the removal of the booster side effects. Boosters will remain the same after Crucible launch.

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary

Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#290 - 2011-11-28 23:01:09 UTC
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:


You're essentially advocating a pay-to-win strategy, based on your being comfortable with them simultaneously being "must-haves" as well as quadrupling in price.



According to your argument, all combat modules and rigs should be free.


I mean, what if i run around in 6% damage implants and a slave set, I am essentially 'paying to win', and in the theoretical 1v1 that never happens in EVE that player would have bought a victory that the other man may not have been able to.


If I paid the billion isk for my t2 rigs, and you didn't, and I win a fight, but am in low structure, I have paid to win.


I'm not sure what imaginary game you play but 'paying to win' is exactly what EVE combat is all about.



Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.

Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
#291 - 2011-11-28 23:33:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Hans Jagerblitzen
Grath Telkin wrote:
Some totally valid observations.


You're absolutely right, and again, its not a matter of right or wrong here but what the majority of players (at least the ones responding to this thread) desire.

This is what I said boosters would become - another set of officer mods, or cheap "potions" that must be carried and popped at all times like faction ammo. The only way they would become the latter, though, is if the materials were found everywhere with minimal effort. And once they become cheap and ubiquitous, they completely lose the underworld feel to begin with. Why even have boosters if everyone was high in every situation because they are simultaneously harmless and cheap?

More officer mods is not what a lot of us want. Officer mods and other expensive toys are fun to have around in small doses for the uber-rich, but many pilots don't want to see the overall cost of entry to PvP to spike by that much. Adding layer upon layer of expense to combat raises the threshhold at which newer players can be effective in fleets, the only counter to blinging out your ship to keep up with the Joneses being to blob up with other cheap fitted pilots Goonswarm style, which is a fair enough tactic, but again, not that interesting, dynamic, or fun.

Keeping boosters at their current prices, and adjusting the mechanics to maintain an balance of risk and reward (I'm perfectly fine with scrapping random side effects in favor of predictable drawbacks) would keep them usable for a wide variety of players, which was the whole goal CCP aimed for in the beginning.

You may want them to become like hardwirings or officer mods, as you can both afford them as well as profit off them if they were that expensive, but the original goal here is to put them in the hands of more players. Having the cost skyrocket will result in far fewer pilots using boosters, not more.

I think balancing changes should be about finding a happy medium - Booster should not be so rare that only the rich benefit, but not so common that they lose the element of surprise (in whether your opponent will be dare to use them).

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary

Freyya
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#292 - 2011-11-28 23:37:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Freyya
Side effects are bugged.

Some are not showing in character sheet.

Be carefull when using boosters after patch expansion!

Used X-instinct improved;
My EHP drops from 46K to 35K. 25% Armor hitpoint penalty in effect but not showing.

Used Drop improved;
Armor rep amount from med t2 repper drops from 320 to 240. 25% armor repair amount in effect but not showing in char sheet.

Yes i filed a very comprehensable bug report with very easy to follow reproduction steps.
Test for yourselves;

Fit a ship (i used talos) according to possible booster side effects and use the pills. Observe numbers of side effect areas closely for changes. Then check char sheet for side effects listed.

BUG REPORT ANY SIDE EFFECTS YOU ENCOUNTER AS NOT LISTED BUT IN EFFECT SO CCP CAN FIX THIS ASAP.
Robert Fish
AQUILA INC
Verge of Collapse
#293 - 2011-11-29 00:32:16 UTC
I for one was looking forward to this change, but thats mainly because I have a plentiful supply to take from.
I currently live in a wormhole making them for my corp of about 30 active pilots but this is just a hobby as demand is very low e.g last month i sold 10 mainly because of the risk of side-effects, (who wants to spend isk just to have a side effect that keeps them from playing the game).

I also don't think there's anything wrong with supply of gas as whenever i'm in the gas regions i can find ladar sites to mine if I wished, which i never do beacuse the gas isn't worth harvesting, and standard BPC's are also readily available, yes there's a shortage of improved and strong BPC's but I don't see price as a reason not to implant this, supply & demand is the great leveler and would keep the stong boosters to the reserve of super/titan pilots as is the case for officer mods.

What this change would of meant is that synth boosters would of been the must have with the illegal boosters reserved for thoose who put in the effort/isk to get them. As you can get the synth gas from high sec (apart from mindflood) supply wouldn't of been an issue.

I would suggest 1 of 3 things
1. Implement thse changes but have Biology not effecting time just the type of booster you could use, reduce the effeectiveness of improved and strong to 12.5% & 15% for blue bill.
2. Keep bonus/penalties as is now but reduce duration to base 10mins (so would be 20mins with lvl 5 biology) - with a reduction in gas use in production
3. change random penalty to a fixed penalty on 1 or more aspect of your ship.


Robert Fish
AQUILA INC
Verge of Collapse
#294 - 2011-11-29 00:40:49 UTC
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
Grath Telkin wrote:

Why is a 'must have pvp item' suddenly a bad thing when it comes to boosters?


It's a bad thing because you've already stated that you're fine with 30 mil standard boosters and 500 mil strong boosters. At those prices, an item you'd be foolish not to have around and use all the time, will be inaccessible to a great majority of players who can't afford to spend 30 mil for a couple of hours for PvP just to stay competitive.

You're essentially advocating a pay-to-win strategy, based on your being comfortable with them simultaneously being "must-haves" as well as quadrupling in price.

PvP outcomes should continue to rely on the skill of the pilot, not the size of his wallet.



Let me introduce you to the concept of supply and demand, if standard boosters are at 30mil no-one would use them and so price would drop, to a level that people are willing to pay. If you're flying a frigate worth 30mil then you're not going to spend 30mil on a booster, but if you are flying a 1bil ship then yes you could pay that.

And pvp outcomes are all about the size of your wallet tengu vs drake for example or the amount of faction mods you are willing to put on a ship. It will all come down to isk vs reward with regard to the ship you are flying.
Robert Fish
AQUILA INC
Verge of Collapse
#295 - 2011-11-29 00:43:02 UTC
lame double post
Jaigar
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#296 - 2011-11-29 02:18:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Jaigar
Robert Fish wrote:
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
Grath Telkin wrote:

Why is a 'must have pvp item' suddenly a bad thing when it comes to boosters?


It's a bad thing because you've already stated that you're fine with 30 mil standard boosters and 500 mil strong boosters. At those prices, an item you'd be foolish not to have around and use all the time, will be inaccessible to a great majority of players who can't afford to spend 30 mil for a couple of hours for PvP just to stay competitive.

You're essentially advocating a pay-to-win strategy, based on your being comfortable with them simultaneously being "must-haves" as well as quadrupling in price.

PvP outcomes should continue to rely on the skill of the pilot, not the size of his wallet.



Let me introduce you to the concept of supply and demand, if standard boosters are at 30mil no-one would use them and so price would drop, to a level that people are willing to pay. If you're flying a frigate worth 30mil then you're not going to spend 30mil on a booster, but if you are flying a 1bil ship then yes you could pay that.

And pvp outcomes are all about the size of your wallet tengu vs drake for example or the amount of faction mods you are willing to put on a ship. It will all come down to isk vs reward with regard to the ship you are flying.

This, but it should also be considered that there are not boosters for everything. IE, how much are boosters going to help a neut cane (yeah extra cap from mindflood to run those neuts is nice, but it doesn't break the setup)? How much are they going to help any ship that isn't cap dependent nor self-repping? Not everyone would have even needed boosters. And sure, the sig radius reduction drop helps everyone, but is it enough to save a hurricane or a drake from death? Probably not.
Emperor Salazar
Remote Soviet Industries
Insidious Empire
#297 - 2011-11-29 22:21:56 UTC
Don't stop posting guys.

Tell me more.
Zo'ha
Techno Miners
#298 - 2011-12-02 11:15:53 UTC
I made a little post that would hopefully address most of the issues here. Have a read and tell me what you think

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=40869&find=unread
Rangloff
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#299 - 2011-12-05 04:03:48 UTC
Boosters forgoten about?
Emperor Salazar
Remote Soviet Industries
Insidious Empire
#300 - 2011-12-05 13:53:45 UTC
Rangloff wrote:
Boosters forgoten about?


Good thing only 1% of Eve's population will notice.