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Real War Gains/Consequences and Rebalance

Author
Andre Vauban
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#21 - 2014-03-05 15:34:00 UTC
Catherine Laartii wrote:
Bad Messenger wrote:
FW is working fine, it does not need any big changes.


Fine?
-How is the point system fine?
-How is having hundreds, if not thousands of farmers with no loyalty to any side or the gameplay itself mucking up the system fine?
-How are missions that pay out well, but don't affect the contested level of the system you run them in fine?
-How are dust players not being able to choose the planet they fight on fine?
-How is the tag market fine?
-How is the ihub system fine?
-How is the intel system fine?
-How is the screening for recruits fine?
-How is the plex capturing system fine?
-How are the larger war objectives, if any, fine?
-How is the lore progression fine?
-How are real territory gains fine, especially if they're nonexistent?

What is a war without conquest? What is war without the need for acquiring resources or territory?

Don't tell me something so hilariously broken is fine.
Don't presume gameplay that lets people boost from halfway across a solar system into a complex to buff small gang/solo in complexes designed to limit ship classes and their pvp engagement styles is fine.
Don't think that it's for making money, because it's not. It's for fighting.

And a fight has to eventually have a winner and a loser.


What you should be asking for is for CCP to fix nullsec so that smaller players can get involved. You need to get on the nerf power projection, allow more players to be supported per null sec system, "do things" to encourage null sec alliances to hold less space, "do things" to not make it worth null sec alliances time to go beat on smaller null sec alliances just because they have nothing better to do, etc. FW is not that game.

As far as your specific points...

-How is the point system fine?
There is nothing wrong with the point system. It works rather well and the pendulum swings back and forth nicely. This is a CCP design to ensure nobody wins and it is a never ending war. CCP needs neither side to ever win or lose and for us to keep coming back every month.

-How is having hundreds, if not thousands of farmers with no loyalty to any side or the gameplay itself mucking up the system fine?
There is nothing wrong with having farmers. What is slightly broken is the risk/reward and the use of cloaks and stabs. A few small tweaks might fix this issue.

-How are missions that pay out well, but don't affect the contested level of the system you run them in fine?
I agree missions are broken. They are extremely unbalanced (Caldar/Minmatar get easy mode; Amarr/Gallente get WTFBBQ). They add no "value" the the war. IMHO, FW missions should be removed completely.

-How are dust players not being able to choose the planet they fight on fine?
Yes, this is broken. However, this is a DUST514 problem, not an EVE problem.

-How is the tag market fine?
Agree. The tag market is broken after they reduced the number of NPCs in plexes.

-How is the ihub system fine?
How is the ihub system not fine? I like the current system.

-How is the intel system fine?
What intel system? Intel systems are a player created "thing". There is no CCP mechanic for intel other than chat channels and evemail. CCP could probably fix the API to add system contested percentage, but that is the only fix I can see that would help.

-How is the screening for recruits fine?
How is this any different than anywhere else in EVE? My only problem is that they dropped the Faction standing required to join FW, which makes alt spies extremly easy to create. However, at the same time this has literally pulled 10,000+ players into FW that wouldn't be there otherwise.

-How is the plex capturing system fine?
How is it broken. I think it works fine.

-How are the larger war objectives, if any, fine?
This is not nullsec. This is a free wardec, that is all. If you want grand wars and strategic goals, nullsec is the answer.

-How is the lore progression fine?
Hmmm, I guess I'll concede this point. CCP could do more here but I don't think they have the creative writer resources to make it happen.

-How are real territory gains fine, especially if they're nonexistent?
This is not nullsec. This is a free wardec, that is all. If you want grand wars and strategic goals, nullsec is the answer.

What is a war without conquest? What is war without the need for acquiring resources or territory?
This is lowsec, not nullsec. Resources are FW LP, POCOs, and moons. That is all. If you want more, lowsec is not where you should be.

.

X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#22 - 2014-03-05 16:29:33 UTC
Andre Vauban wrote:

-How are missions that pay out well, but don't affect the contested level of the system you run them in fine?
I agree missions are broken. They are extremely unbalanced (Caldar/Minmatar get easy mode; Amarr/Gallente get WTFBBQ). They add no "value" the the war. IMHO, FW missions should be removed completely.
So basically the other side can starve you to death by allowing you to take all their systems?

1. Missions serve the NEED of allowing the winning side to make isk if the other side decides to not engage.
2. wrt to unbalanced missions... Sometimes variety is a good thing. Honestly I think the Gallente militia is stronger because our rats are WTFBBQ. It keeps the farming riffraff out. Anyways, if/when the missions are rebalanced they need to be more difficult than Caldari/Minmatar, but perhaps a bit less difficult than Gallente.
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#23 - 2014-03-05 16:33:56 UTC
Bad Messenger wrote:
It is just endless war. if you want something else maybe you should go 0.0 and take your own systems.
0.0 is endless war too - if they choose to make it so. The FW timescale is much shorter.

The "lore" is that CONCORD set up FW as a place for all the radicals in each faction to go beat their brains into each other. Working as intended. Lol
Catherine Laartii
Doomheim
#24 - 2014-03-05 21:23:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Catherine Laartii
X Gallentius wrote:
Bad Messenger wrote:
It is just endless war. if you want something else maybe you should go 0.0 and take your own systems.
0.0 is endless war too - if they choose to make it so. The FW timescale is much shorter.

The "lore" is that CONCORD set up FW as a place for all the radicals in each faction to go beat their brains into each other. Working as intended. Lol


I find the irony that statement with the both of us involved, especially considering our history, ia hilariously ironic to the point of "ow oh god my sides hurt, why can't I breathe?" XD

That aside, I'm taking the opposite philosophical stance to that; From what I've read and seen, each side was set up with the express purpose of helping the larger war effort, which is finite. Even if you take it to the logical extreme on your side, the factions themselves do not want and cannot support an indefinite war effort, especially with the Sansha incursions. At some point, something is going to give, and adding gameplay to help push that along, except make it up to the players and their efforts, would be ideal.

Seriously...you've been playing for the gallente HOW long and you wouldn't want to be one of the few chosen on your side to lead the charge to actually have the opportunity to win the war? What's wrong with not leading on that level, and partaking of that potential glory? For either side that would lead the charge to conquer, it would be inspiring and gratifying for the veterans such as yourself to finally have permanent, lasting consequences for good leadership, would it not?
Catherine Laartii
Doomheim
#25 - 2014-03-05 21:26:59 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
Andre Vauban wrote:

-How are missions that pay out well, but don't affect the contested level of the system you run them in fine?
I agree missions are broken. They are extremely unbalanced (Caldar/Minmatar get easy mode; Amarr/Gallente get WTFBBQ). They add no "value" the the war. IMHO, FW missions should be removed completely.
So basically the other side can starve you to death by allowing you to take all their systems?

1. Missions serve the NEED of allowing the winning side to make isk if the other side decides to not engage.
2. wrt to unbalanced missions... Sometimes variety is a good thing. Honestly I think the Gallente militia is stronger because our rats are WTFBBQ. It keeps the farming riffraff out. Anyways, if/when the missions are rebalanced they need to be more difficult than Caldari/Minmatar, but perhaps a bit less difficult than Gallente.


TBH I've run lvl 4 FW missions a lot in a merlin since BEFORE they got patched...back in Tyrannis I think. It's kind of embarrassing how easy they are, but like anything else in that profession, you have to worry about getting dropped on so being vigilant with dscan is all-important. You guys could probably run your own missions in a single-rep permastable incursus with eccm without too much difficulty. Might be worth trying at some point if you get your tier up.
Catherine Laartii
Doomheim
#26 - 2014-03-05 21:33:39 UTC
Thanatos Marathon wrote:
Create your own "Win" scenario. Develop the best PVP corp, become the best solo pilot, take the entire Warzone. Creating a "Win" mechanic for a never ending war doesn't make sense unless you want the war to end.


...which is exactly the point of this thread. It needs to end at some point because it would be impossible for the Empires to sustain this level of warfare; fighting each other and the sansha is completely unsustainable. Having the players decide how each war effort ends through their own blood, sweat and tears is ideal. I am simply posting some of my ideas of how that might look.
Catherine Laartii
Doomheim
#27 - 2014-03-05 21:51:53 UTC
"What you should be asking for is for CCP to fix nullsec so that smaller players can get involved. You need to get on the nerf power projection, allow more players to be supported per null sec system, "do things" to encourage null sec alliances to hold less space, "do things" to not make it worth null sec alliances time to go beat on smaller null sec alliances just because they have nothing better to do, etc. FW is not that game."

Already did that in a previous post. The gist of it was that they'd change sov by adopting a somewhat similar system of capturing complexes, except they'd be special DED sites full of a boatload of mercs that had to be taken down. Adding a a system where systems in sov can be contested rather than blockaded is a good starting point; the main difficulty lies with scaling it up properly.

"As far as your specific points...

How is the point system fine?
There is nothing wrong with the point system. It works rather well and the pendulum swings back and forth nicely. This is a CCP design to ensure nobody wins and it is a never ending war. CCP needs neither side to ever win or lose and for us to keep coming back every month."

The point system is broken because it is skewed more towards the upgrade system rather than the number of actual systems held, which disincentivizes the capturing and holding of territorial gains; while systems are assigned points when they are gained, they are far fewer than where they should be. A possible way to fix that in the way I was speaking of would be to increase the overall point cap dramitcally for the warzone, but have system upgrade points be roughly on-par with owning the system itself.

-"How is having hundreds, if not thousands of farmers with no loyalty to any side or the gameplay itself mucking up the system fine?
There is nothing wrong with having farmers. What is slightly broken is the risk/reward and the use of cloaks and stabs. A few small tweaks might fix this issue."

There is EVERYTHING wrong with having farmers. The deny larger op goal coordination, they degenerate the quality of pvp in FW, and they don't have solidarity with the interests of the parent faction most of the time. They'll flip sides the moment things become better on the other side of the pasture.

-"How are missions that pay out well, but don't affect the contested level of the system you run them in fine?
I agree missions are broken. They are extremely unbalanced (Caldar/Minmatar get easy mode; Amarr/Gallente get WTFBBQ). They add no "value" the the war. IMHO, FW missions should be removed completely."

I don't think they should be removed at all; they provide a valuable method of providing quite a lot of isk to support the war effort on any side to the point of being invaluable. What could use fixing is their inherent difficulty (need to be harder for some races, easier for others), and making their completion in the system increase the contested level since they ARE a largeish military complex compared to some of the others (also another reason why I think there should be more NPC rats guarding complexes).

-"How are dust players not being able to choose the planet they fight on fine?
Yes, this is broken. However, this is a DUST514 problem, not an EVE problem."
It IS an eve problem because it directly translates to the difficulty or ease of capturing a certain system. It would be extremely helpful if both sides could pick to fight over, say, eha/oicx or some of the other front systems with planets just as rabidly on the ground as in the air. It would be invaluable for dust players dedicated to the cause to choose their battles in-line with war objectives.

-"How is the tag market fine?
Agree. The tag market is broken after they reduced the number of NPCs in plexes."
Thanks for the agreement; I made an entirely separate post about this awhile that I've been trying to garner support for. Not only do there need to be more tags accessable, the LP market for them needs to have it knocked down a bit to make the shiny items a little more available and useful.

-"How is the ihub system fine?
How is the ihub system not fine? I like the current system."
Sure you do, but it makes it extremely difficult to capture a system; you ned a lot of people fielding a lot of ships in a vulnerable situation. Having the old system of the last plex flipping the system is a better idea in my opinion, but it could use some work. I'm running out of room on this thread, so I'll continue it in a following post.
Catherine Laartii
Doomheim
#28 - 2014-03-05 22:08:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Catherine Laartii
-"How is the intel system fine?
What intel system? Intel systems are a player created "thing". There is no CCP mechanic for intel other than chat channels and evemail. CCP could probably fix the API to add system contested percentage, but that is the only fix I can see that would help."
EXACTLY. There is no in-game system to relay something resembling secure intel apart from channels alliances or corps pop up. An ideal system would be an introduced game app or a 3rd party mechanic that allows secure registry of API to screen out spies, and post intel on situations, locations, and compositions involving enemies and their movements.

-"How is the screening for recruits fine?
How is this any different than anywhere else in EVE? My only problem is that they dropped the Faction standing required to join FW, which makes alt spies extremly easy to create. However, at the same time this has literally pulled 10,000+ players into FW that wouldn't be there otherwise."
Your are correct with your first statement; it is broken everywhere in-game, but the main issue in FW lies with having a PERMANENT enemy who can infiltrate you. Having API screening as part of the recruitment process would be ideal, but short of that bringing back the minimum entry requirements for faction standing would be a great start.

-"How is the plex capturing system fine?
How is it broken. I think it works fine."
It's not fine in as I state in the main post that it in fact needs to be brought back somewhat similar to the old system where there were a lot of NPCs in the plex you had to cap. Making it so you have to be flying a decent combat ship or with a group would be ideal because it would completely discourage the little stabbed farmers from running them down all the time; it would be an ideal method of keeping plex capping a corp effort.

-"How are the larger war objectives, if any, fine?
This is not nullsec. This is a free wardec, that is all. If you want grand wars and strategic goals, nullsec is the answer."
It is NOT a free wardec; this is the biggest misconception of this entire thread by people who have posted on it. It is a warfare effort SANCTIONED by the larger empires to assist in THEIR war effort, which WILL be finite. Reflecting that fact with adding the possibility for real, permanent territorial gains and need for defense would be perfectly in-line with having 'larger war objectives'. It is a necessity that larger goals like warzone domination and system capturing are incentivized over farming and small-scale skirmishes.

-"How is the lore progression fine?
Hmmm, I guess I'll concede this point. CCP could do more here but I don't think they have the creative writer resources to make it happen."
The only example of good lore progression in recent history was when they were doing the whole Battle for Caldari Prime thing, and gave it to the gallente. If memory serves, at least one side had recently held total warzone control, so from the outset the intention should have been releasing that lore thing leading up to the total warzone domination.

-"How are real territory gains fine, especially if they're nonexistent?
This is not nullsec. This is a free wardec, that is all. If you want grand wars and strategic goals, nullsec is the answer."
As I stated previously and to reiterate your point in the same sentence, it is NOT nullsec. It is utterly, completely different, and it's ludicrous to assume null should be the only game mechanic where 'territory gains' apply, ESPECIALLY in an empire-sanctioned war effort. This is the main point of the thread.

"What is a war without conquest? What is war without the need for acquiring resources or territory?"
This is lowsec, not nullsec. Resources are FW LP, POCOs, and moons. That is all. If you want more, lowsec is not where you should be."
Again, see above reply. It IS a war, and a big one at that. Lowsec is not ideal currently BECAUSE the system needs to be fixed dramitcally, and hence why this post exists in the first place. My vision I would like to see as the eventuality for all of these would be it expanded with pirate factional warfare after they resolve the sanshas thing, and have FW be expanded to more lowsec regions for a wider swath of sandbox to play in. It would fall in nicely with the plan I stated earlier about having system gains be more relevant point-wise after expanding the point cap.
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#29 - 2014-03-06 00:44:03 UTC
Catherine Laartii wrote:
You guys could probably run your own missions in a single-rep permastable incursus with eccm without too much difficulty. Might be worth trying at some point if you get your tier up.

Actually Tier 3 Tengu, Proteus, or Ishtar/Deimos. L4 Gallente FW missions are a tough.
IbanezLaney
The Church of Awesome
#30 - 2014-03-06 01:19:48 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
Andre Vauban wrote:

-How are missions that pay out well, but don't affect the contested level of the system you run them in fine?
I agree missions are broken. They are extremely unbalanced (Caldar/Minmatar get easy mode; Amarr/Gallente get WTFBBQ). They add no "value" the the war. IMHO, FW missions should be removed completely.
So basically the other side can starve you to death by allowing you to take all their systems?

1. Missions serve the NEED of allowing the winning side to make isk if the other side decides to not engage.
2. wrt to unbalanced missions... Sometimes variety is a good thing. Honestly I think the Gallente militia is stronger because our rats are WTFBBQ. It keeps the farming riffraff out. Anyways, if/when the missions are rebalanced they need to be more difficult than Caldari/Minmatar, but perhaps a bit less difficult than Gallente.



500-600mil an hour at t4 is a bit over the top.

Yeah you need to make isk but it seems to pay too well at high tears.

Bad Messenger
Rehabilitation Clinic
#31 - 2014-03-06 01:27:26 UTC
You are wasting time by thinking how to change game, how about use your time planning how to play on current mechanics.
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#32 - 2014-03-06 04:53:21 UTC
Catherine Laartii wrote:

Seriously...you've been playing for the gallente HOW long and you wouldn't want to be one of the few chosen on your side to lead the charge to actually have the opportunity to win the war?
We DID win the war! I have a medal to prove it.
Catherine Laartii
Doomheim
#33 - 2014-03-06 06:54:13 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
Catherine Laartii wrote:
You guys could probably run your own missions in a single-rep permastable incursus with eccm without too much difficulty. Might be worth trying at some point if you get your tier up.

Actually Tier 3 Tengu, Proteus, or Ishtar/Deimos. L4 Gallente FW missions are a tough.


Think small; you can sig tank it it similarly to how the merlin works, except just go heavy kin and it should work. Failing at that, you could just try going with an ishkur. Generally the merlin setup works perfectly if you run the missions where you have to drop the industrials rather than a commander.
Catherine Laartii
Doomheim
#34 - 2014-03-06 06:55:41 UTC
Bad Messenger wrote:
You are wasting time by thinking how to change game, how about use your time planning how to play on current mechanics.


...If you think that proposing ideas to help fix gameplay is a bad idea, then why in God's name are you here? That's kind of the purpose for these particular forums, you know. :/
Catherine Laartii
Doomheim
#35 - 2014-03-06 06:59:36 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
Catherine Laartii wrote:

Seriously...you've been playing for the gallente HOW long and you wouldn't want to be one of the few chosen on your side to lead the charge to actually have the opportunity to win the war?
We DID win the war! I have a medal to prove it.


rofl the shiny wz dom medals. XD

But in all seriousness; what would you do if you had the opportunity to a do a long, heavy push for the possibility of an epic, gigantic battle to permanently resolve it? A lot of other MMOs have high-powered events and rushes to permanently resolve running lore arcs, GW2 would be a good example as they just finished a yearlong one this week. What would your thought process be for that? What would you do if you had that opportunity to work towards?
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#36 - 2014-03-06 07:41:51 UTC
Catherine Laartii wrote:
X Gallentius wrote:
Catherine Laartii wrote:
You guys could probably run your own missions in a single-rep permastable incursus with eccm without too much difficulty. Might be worth trying at some point if you get your tier up.

Actually Tier 3 Tengu, Proteus, or Ishtar/Deimos. L4 Gallente FW missions are a tough.


Think small; you can sig tank it it similarly to how the merlin works, except just go heavy kin and it should work. Failing at that, you could just try going with an ishkur. Generally the merlin setup works perfectly if you run the missions where you have to drop the industrials rather than a commander.

Jams
Catherine Laartii
Doomheim
#37 - 2014-03-06 09:40:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Catherine Laartii
X Gallentius wrote:
Catherine Laartii wrote:
X Gallentius wrote:
Catherine Laartii wrote:
You guys could probably run your own missions in a single-rep permastable incursus with eccm without too much difficulty. Might be worth trying at some point if you get your tier up.

Actually Tier 3 Tengu, Proteus, or Ishtar/Deimos. L4 Gallente FW missions are a tough.


Think small; you can sig tank it it similarly to how the merlin works, except just go heavy kin and it should work. Failing at that, you could just try going with an ishkur. Generally the merlin setup works perfectly if you run the missions where you have to drop the industrials rather than a commander.

Jams


I guess having not done them it would be presumptuous to assume there's an equivalent armor setup that would work for it. With that in mind, I would present this 80 sensor strength harpy with over 300 base dps to run it. See if this works:
[Harpy]

[High Slots]
Light Ion Blaster II, Void S
Light Ion Blaster II, Void S
Light Ion Blaster II, Void S
Light Ion Blaster II, Void S

[Med Slots]
Medium F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
Conjunctive Gravimetric ECCM Scanning Array I
Conjunctive Gravimetric ECCM Scanning Array I
Experimental 1MN Afterburner I

[Low Slots]
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Gravimetric Backup Array II

[Rigs]
Small Anti-Kinetic Screen Reinforcer I
Small Hybrid Collision Accelerator I

It'd basically be the same strategy I go for when I run mine; nuke the small ships then make a b-line for the mission target. If it works, you get the satisfaction of beating the odds in a little frigate. :)
Bad Messenger
Rehabilitation Clinic
#38 - 2014-03-06 10:20:53 UTC
Catherine Laartii wrote:
Bad Messenger wrote:
You are wasting time by thinking how to change game, how about use your time planning how to play on current mechanics.


...If you think that proposing ideas to help fix gameplay is a bad idea, then why in God's name are you here? That's kind of the purpose for these particular forums, you know. :/


actually this is warfare and tactics section of forums where we should discuss about current mechanics and how to play with those.

If you want to change game maybe you should post on features and ideas section instead.

Veskrashen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#39 - 2014-03-06 13:02:37 UTC
Catherine Laartii wrote:
I guess having not done them it would be presumptuous to assume there's an equivalent armor setup that would work for it. With that in mind, I would present this 80 sensor strength harpy with over 300 base dps to run it.


That's a nice setup, sure. Thing is that we still get jammed multiple times even in our T3s - all of which have 70+ sensor strength. It's definitely a lot cheaper than our normal setups, but with about 60% the DPS.

I've not run them in a Manticore yet, but you can get 80+ sensor strength out of one of those as well. While doing 500+ DPS at 70+km. Oh, and have all the advantages of being able to move around cloaked.

Your harpy would be a disincentive to get bounced during those missions, I have to admit.

We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..."

Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#40 - 2014-03-06 14:03:34 UTC
OP, you seem to be very passionate about this, and passion is never a bad thing.

So why don't you make an 'open question' topic on GD, something like 'Do you think FW lacks a final goal? If you do, what could the final goal be?'.

You'll get several no's but probably some good ideas too.

Then you could talk with the 'yes' people in-game and create a common proposal to post on F&I, that would already have the 'base' support of a group of people that share your vision.

You'd have better chances of:

1) creating a more solid proposal through teamwork
2) getting CSM's or CCP's attention

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!

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