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How to utterly demolish bot mining easily
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Sister of Pain
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#141 - 2014-03-05 17:58:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Sister of Pain
Ok, we'll take a minigame to start a mining laser, but the gankers have to play a minigame before they can fire weapons. Gotta keep the sandbox balanced for everyone.

Theres no need to change the ingame mining mechanic at all. Adding minigames, captchas, and so forth is just stupid and would break the game much worse than anything it would accomplish. A real world fix would have to come directly from CCP's code monkeys in the form of a better detection script that gets loaded into our computers as part of the game files. Bot programs are mostly created to be sold, and can be found as such searching the web for them. So find them, create a counter measure that can detect it, and put it out in a login patch on the launcher. (We're already used to seeing those patches almost everyday anyway.)

People need to stop suggesting nerfs/buffs. Crying nerf this/buff that is just bad news for everyone. Just about every time something is nerfed, other things get balanced out as well. I'm sure that most everyone can agree that they have had a part of the game they like get screwed over because a different part of the game got nerfed/buffed.

Pain is inevitable, but the suffering is optional.

This is possibly one of the worst threads in the history of these forums.  Locked. - CCP Falcon
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#142 - 2014-03-05 19:05:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Reaver Glitterstim
Why does it need to be a mini-game for mining? Why not a full-blown game that's actually fun to play for long periods of time?

There are lots of styles it could take on but one possibility (for the sake of argument) is a miniature RTS on the asteroid. The miner's view zooms in on the asteroid to build a tiny fast-moving drone civilization that eats away at the asteroid. Now some of these would be already inhabited by rogue drones. The larger the asteroid, the faster you can eat it but the more likely you'll have to fight your way through. The goal is to just transfer as much ore as possible to the sendoff station which throws it all into space in a stream via the mining laser on your ship. Another goal is defend the pickup station, otherwise you lose your asteroid colony and have to find a new landing spot to start over.

And lastly, another player could intentionally make a colony on the same asteroid and try to stop you from mining it.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#143 - 2014-03-05 19:10:09 UTC
Mining was as far as I can tell always meant to be a relatively passive career. Introducing these kind of changes simply makes it more difficult for legitimate miners.
Dave Stark
#144 - 2014-03-05 19:36:58 UTC
I say we go back to my original proposal; just ban the bots.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#145 - 2014-03-05 20:15:12 UTC
I really tried to read most of the thread, but at a certain point it did occur to me we have effectively a three point proposal.
If you try to shift this equation in order to neutralize botting, which is time insensitive, I would suggest doing so in a manner that does not penalize actual players.

Number of hours played to earn a PLEX
Number of hours played to earn the ISK needed to buy (ship for use in example)
Amount of ore needed to manufacture (ship for use in example)

These are interconnected.
Similar to a trigonometric equation, if you set any two of those points, you effectively have dictated the remaining point by default, as the details of the other two by necessity determine it.

Unlike real life, this works here because the amount of ore needed for manufacture is not based on anything but the dev's arbitrary choice.
That said, I believe it is made to be as realistic as possible, while still allowing for balanced game play.

I do not believe a system focused around captcha is the right answer here.
Bot designers are, in my opinion, more likely to be overwhelmed trying to anticipate a more interactive play requirement, than simply identifying characters in a screwed up font.
Conversely, players are, (again in my opinion), more likely to be overwhelmed trying to get the screwy letters and numbers right, than playing a more immersive game which ultimately we are paying to play.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#146 - 2014-03-05 20:36:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Reaver Glitterstim
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Number of hours played to earn a PLEX
Number of hours played to earn the ISK needed to buy (ship for use in example)
Amount of ore needed to manufacture (ship for use in example)

Q1: I hope you're not suggesting that decreasing ISK yield from mining will increase the amount of time it takes to earn a PLEX.

My suggestion was to dramatically reduce the ISK yield from mining, such that nobody even considers it a profession but rather just a side skill you do every now and then when minerals get low. At that point, the hauling is probably the bigger bottleneck. There will still be lots of ways for people to earn their PLEX.

Also I should point out that I'm not trying to gain support for my proposal. I made it to point out that defeating bots wouldn't actually be that difficult. That being said, I don't think it's necessarily a bad idea.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#147 - 2014-03-05 20:51:27 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Number of hours played to earn a PLEX
Number of hours played to earn the ISK needed to buy (ship for use in example)
Amount of ore needed to manufacture (ship for use in example)

Q1: I hope you're not suggesting that decreasing ISK yield from mining will increase the amount of time it takes to earn a PLEX.

My suggestion was to dramatically reduce the ISK yield from mining, such that nobody even considers it a profession but rather just a side skill you do every now and then when minerals get low. At that point, the hauling is probably the bigger bottleneck. There will still be lots of ways for people to earn their PLEX.

Also I should point out that I'm not trying to gain support for my proposal. I made it to point out that defeating bots wouldn't actually be that difficult. That being said, I don't think it's necessarily a bad idea.

A1: If PLEX prices remain constant, then reduced income would result in it taking longer.
Should players diversify to other income methods, or PLEX pricing drop, then the effect may be balanced out.

It sounds to me, like you are reducing mining to insignificance. At least, compared to current standings.

To me, the real question is in three parts.

How to eliminate bots / Players still being able to earn PLEX / Retaining mining as a desirable play style.

If I understand you correctly, you would eliminate mining as a play style, at least in high sec, in order to achieve this bot removal.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Rowells
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#148 - 2014-03-05 20:56:26 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
My suggestion was to dramatically reduce the ISK yield from mining, such that nobody even considers it a profession but rather just a side skill you do every now and then when minerals get low. At that point, the hauling is probably the bigger bottleneck. There will still be lots of ways for people to earn their PLEX.

Why would you want to ruin the playstyle of thousands of players? What purpose could it serve in the long run? Bots will exist so long as Eve is played on computers.

Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Also I should point out that I'm not trying to gain support for my proposal. I made it to point out that defeating bots wouldn't actually be that difficult. That being said, I don't think it's necessarily a bad idea.
I really don't believe you have. You keep saying it will work, but seem to be basing that on personal beliefs rather than existing examples or patterns. We keep saying countless times that bots will be able to keep up with changes made to gameplay unless you destroy the profession entirely, which seems to be no problem to you. And you keep saying that your ideas will destroy botting but in your OP, you clearly say that the bots will not go away, they'll just bot somewhere else (maybe switching to rating bots in nullsec. and then we'll have another thread destroying nullsec ratting and start the whole cycle again).

Why do you keep insisting that the majority of miners are botters, and that mining needs to be destroyed as a result?

Although, if mining became somewhat engaging and had the possibility of personal skill increasing efficiency I would be up to try that.
Lephia DeGrande
Luxembourg Space Union
#149 - 2014-03-05 22:00:44 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Lephia DeGrande wrote:

To be fair, other Games fill this roles with other humans, i dont like Boxer or even Alts but yes we should accept it that its simply a common Part of Eve Online.


When it comes to being a booster character, good luck finding one, who wants to sit on a safe, watching for probes and not getting on any kills. You now are going to say that ongrid boosters should be used, which is indeed a viable option, until you realize that, on the one hand, you still cannot get on kills, because your utility slots and weapon slots are full with required boosters for the fleet, or, in the other hand, you get killed early in fights and thus doom your fleet.



Who cares kills?

I am ongrid booster since... 2 years and i am a very happy puppy, sure i cant get into big Fleet fights but i dont care, i prefer small Gangs and love to be the "Booster Sponge".

Think about it. Blink

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Stephanie Rosefire
Atlas Protectorate and Empire Defense Agency
#150 - 2014-03-05 22:18:53 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Bot mining is extremely common because it is more than possible to mine enough income in highsec to plex the account using a simple computer program that can run the mining operation.

Solution: Make highsec mining not profitable enough to sustain an account all by itself.

Economic reaction: Nearly all highsec bot mining operations will disappear; the majority of remaining highsec bot miners will be characters that are used for other things as well. The only remaining characters devoted entirely to botting will have operators who run other passive income sources as well to suplement their income.

How to accomplish this: Reduce the demand for highsec minerals. Dramatically increase the prevalence of minerals tritanium, pyerite, mexallon, and isogen.

If normal players could mine in highsec enough for their own ships in their off time, then highsec mineral income would plummet. The economy could not sustain lots of bot miners because there simply wouldn't be enough demand for those minerals. A lot of manufacturers would refuse to pay large amounts of ISK for their minerals when they could just go mine them in a short amount of time.


this idea is terrible. the game would lose ALOT of active subscribers. most people who want to plex their account rely on mining enough minerals to eventually get the isk to plex their account. making that impossible would mean a good chuck (maybe around 5,000-10,000) of active subscribers would dissappear.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#151 - 2014-03-06 08:22:26 UTC
Lephia DeGrande wrote:

Who cares kills?

I am ongrid booster since... 2 years and i am a very happy puppy, sure i cant get into big Fleet fights but i dont care, i prefer small Gangs and love to be the "Booster Sponge".

Think about it. Blink


You are a rare breed then, with a commendable attitude. Smile

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#152 - 2014-03-06 17:24:07 UTC
Stephanie Rosefire wrote:
most people who want to plex their account rely on mining enough minerals to eventually get the isk to plex their account. making that impossible would mean a good chuck (maybe around 5,000-10,000) of active subscribers would dissappear.
The majority? Really? You sure it's not more like 10% maybe?

Maybe you should check the statistics on that. I mean, there a variety of more profitable methods available right in highsec.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Moloney
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#153 - 2014-03-08 20:19:32 UTC
Most botting happens in null sec. Apply your idea there.
Dave Stark
#154 - 2014-03-09 07:42:02 UTC
Moloney wrote:
Most botting happens in null sec. Apply your idea there.


except it's a known fact that most botting is done in high sec, specifically caldari high sec.
Sentamon
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#155 - 2014-03-09 07:53:47 UTC
Most bottling happens where there are most people. I win the Internets!

~ Professional Forum Alt  ~
Dave Stark
#156 - 2014-03-09 08:04:50 UTC
Sentamon wrote:
Most bottling happens where there are most people. I win the Internets!


shocking, isn't it?
Karma Codolle
Chimera Research and Development
#157 - 2014-03-09 10:16:12 UTC
This has to be the dumbest suggestion.

How do you know the majority of miners are bots? Only the devs can know for sure.

I've been attacked and called a bot numerous times while mining in hisec. Even when i respond they still assume im using a program to mine while just "monitoring" my computer.


So essentially your plan is to ruin the game for legit players because you don't like your own speculation of the amount of bots being used for mining.


It's funny how these people never raise arms for mission running bots, or market bots, or hauling bots. It's only just for ******* miners. Peoples obsession with ruining the mining aspect for players that enjoy it is beyond me. I can't fathom why mining profession bothers people so much who don't mine.
Dave Stark
#158 - 2014-03-09 10:25:19 UTC
Karma Codolle wrote:
Even when i respond they still assume im using a program to mine while just "monitoring" my computer.


you are, it's called "eve online".
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#159 - 2014-03-09 10:26:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Rivr Luzade
Is it really that difficult? You are the ones that make their toys and they have to pay you for their toys. They are just jealous. Lol And even more importantly: They hate their dependence from miners, they hate it that they cannot do what they want to do without miners, but miners can do what they want to do without them. Roll

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#160 - 2014-03-09 19:41:51 UTC
Karma Codolle wrote:
How do you know the majority of miners are bots? Only the devs can know for sure.

I've been attacked and called a bot numerous times while mining in hisec.

So essentially your plan is to ruin the game for legit players because you don't like your own speculation of the amount of bots being used for mining.

1.) Many of us define a bot miner as anyone who allows their EVE character to continue mining while they themselves are indulging in other activities. I personally define it as anyone who is able to not notice they are being bumped when they switch mining lasers to a new asteroid or warp away. Most of the miners I have checked around the Sinq Laison/Sanctum area are bots by my own definition, and a higher portion by many other players' definition.

2.) Have you stopped to think that maybe you ARE botting?

3.) my suggestion here isn't my plan. But if it were implemented (which I don't necessarily support), the only people whose game would be ruined are those whose gameplay revolves around not only mining but specifically wasting time doing it and/or earning a good income from doing it in highsec.

Maybe the real problem is that you think it is okay to earn a good in-game income from letting your character play for you in a safety zone.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."