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Core gameplay changes that would radically reshape the game for the better

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Destination SkillQueue
Doomheim
#21 - 2011-11-28 22:24:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Destination SkillQueue
Mors Sanctitatis wrote:
As the title says-

1. Put Local in “delayed mode” for *all* systems, regardless of security status. Constellation chat would provide enough precision with respect to who is located in what general areas as far as “finding a fight” goes, without providing information with extreme precision (“there is exactly X many players from Y group in this system).


I can live with local and with delayed local both. Both have positives and negatives, so I'm a bit divided on the issue. I'm not sure the change would be all for the better though.

Quote:
2. Remove activity metrics from the stellar map. Space should be big and empty. There is no terrain in which to hide in. The emptiness needs to be the small group’s ‘cover’. The ability to hide from larger groups is what will make smaller groups capable of surviving in deep 0.0.

It's free, easy intel and benefits everyone, not just the big groups. I do agree that it gives away too easily everyone trying to ninja themselves in an area of low activity, so I wouldn't oppose getting rid of it. Too much detailed information too easily.
Quote:
3. Remove “mining with guns”. Get rid of mineral drops from Drones. One of the worst game design choices ever.

Yes.
Quote:
4. Remove all Meta 1 drops from the game. In general, push as much into the hands of the players as possible with respect to creating items.

I'm assuming you mean meta 0, since you can't produce meta 1 items. I would like to see it happen.
Quote:
5. Mineral sinks- reduce the recycling efficiency of items. Recycling should be 50-80% efficient at the most, with all skills maxed. There should be value in repairing items.

There is value in repairing items. No one is going to recycle and rebuild an item just to get around the repair bill. I don't know, if the game needs more mineral sinks or not, but your proposed nerf to recycling efficiency seems a bit drastic.
Destination SkillQueue
Doomheim
#22 - 2011-11-28 22:24:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Destination SkillQueue
Quote:
6. Risk vs. reward: Eve is the only game I know of where high level PVE content is available in “safe areas”. WoW’s high level content is restricted to “dangerous” areas of the game, Eve should be similar- move the best/most lucrative PVE content to 0.0 and low security space (I’m looking at you, Level 4 missions).
EVE is a sandbox and it's a mistake to have it follow the same content distribution philosophy as a themepark/straight progression MMO does. Every area needs a good mix of content for all types of players and a wide skill level of players.

More importantly lowsec and 0.0 are more lucrative for most activities. The problem is, that from an individuals point of view, that isn't always the case. What I mean is that there are lucrative activities for individuals, but they tend to be shared or limited resources, so you either can't grind them for a realiable steady income at your convenience or they simply can't provide for everyone. Highsec can offer that reliability and convenience, so it remains as a very attractive option even though it isn't the most lucrative place.

Quote:
7. Build in diversity in space: make particular items available on markets only in high sec, low sec and 0.0 space. Boosters and drugs in general (and the materials to make them) available exclusively in low sec markets would be a good example/start.
Why put artificial limits on the market like this? I'm afraid one of two things or both will happen. One, you kill your market, because most customers aren't willing to come to you for those few items you sell. Bad for the seller, bad for the buyer. Two, players will work around the limitations and create an out of game market to cover for CCPs failings. This means it is basicly a pointless change, that only makes the game more inconvenient/worse to play. I don't think having an item on the general market is a must, but CCP must provide tools to facilitate the trade of such items in a way, that doesn't just turn the trading to a huge sack of **** for everyone involved.

Quote:
Note that the above points improve the life for all aspects of play. There is something of benefit there for everyone: PVPers, industrialists, PVEers, 0.0 players, low sec dwellers and high sec beginners. These are changes that will require a minimum of man-hours to implement. It changes the game design, it’s not about adding content.

CCP traditionally has benefited from the long term player- the type of player that quits after 3-4 months isn’t what CCP should be focused on. Their main focus should be on developing and retaining a player base that is in it for the long view. It’s the consistent growth of this core player structure that is going to continue to support and grow the game.

Discuss.


A mixed bag of changes that has some popular changes mixed in with controversial and weak ones. Frankly too much for a single thread IMO, since the thread likely won't stay focused and runs all over the place.
Takseen
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#23 - 2011-11-28 22:32:22 UTC
Mors Sanctitatis wrote:


Generally speaking, I'm referring to the "daily quests" (not instanced PVE content), and I'm referring to the relative benefit that a player receives while in a "safe area" in WoW compared to an unsafe area. Basically, in WoW a player can accomplish almost nothing from a production/money generating standpoint while in a "high security area". In order to do just about anything character development related the player must venture out into "low security" PVP areas. Note: I'm not an expert on WoW, I don't play it, and don't have years and years of detailed experience with it. I'm just making general comparisons.

And I do play that game, and I'm telling you its nothing like that now :)
All its group content is instanced, and thus has 0 pvp risk. To put it in Eve terms, its like you could teleport from Jita to a lowsec Incursion site of your choice, run it for as long as you like without anyone else being able to enter it, teleport in any replacement ships as needed, and teleport back to Jita when you're done.
The daily questing is open world, and thus there is a tiny risk on pvp enabled servers. Imagine in Eve that if you got ganked, you respawned somewhere in the same system with an identical ship and cargo, but with 1 million less ISK in your wallet. That's the level of "risk" you're talking about.
TLDR version. Most modern MMOs have ultra safe instanced areas for Pve, and even their open world pvp is low risk because you don't lose your gear on death.

I'd happily go afk at my leisure on a pvp server because the worse case scenario is a 2 minute corpse run when I get back. I don't afk in highsec space, because I might come back minus an 80 million set of implants and a 5-500 million ISK ship.
Mors Sanctitatis
Death of Virtue
#24 - 2011-11-28 22:33:10 UTC
Destination SkillQueue wrote:


Quote:
7. Build in diversity in space: make particular items available on markets only in high sec, low sec and 0.0 space. Boosters and drugs in general (and the materials to make them) available exclusively in low sec markets would be a good example/start.


Why put artificial limits on the market like this? I'm afraid one of two things or both will happen. One, you kill your market, because most customers aren't willing to come to you for those few items you sell. Bad for the seller, bad for the buyer. Two, players will work around the limitations and create an out of game market to cover for CCPs failings. This means it is basicly a pointless change, that only makes the game more inconvenient/worse to play. I don't think having an item on the general market is a must, but CCP must provide tools to facilitate the trade of such items in a way, that doesn't just turn the trading a huge sack of **** for everyone involved.


Great post, I like the above point in particular.

What if items were able to be smuggled into high sec space and placed on contracts? They would be available via the market in low sec, but players could still transport them into high sec (JITA) and sell them via contract for more convenience. The items would still be highly illegal in high sec, with all the transportation and possession issues etc., but at least players wouldn't have to risk life and limb to have access to them. Others would do that for them for a premium.

In my mind, this generates opportunity for profit and promotes player activity across the board. Yes? No?

Intelligence shouldn't be free.   Mining, reloaded.   ADDICTED.

Mors Sanctitatis
Death of Virtue
#25 - 2011-11-28 22:37:10 UTC
Takseen wrote:
Mors Sanctitatis wrote:


Generally speaking, I'm referring to the "daily quests" (not instanced PVE content), and I'm referring to the relative benefit that a player receives while in a "safe area" in WoW compared to an unsafe area. Basically, in WoW a player can accomplish almost nothing from a production/money generating standpoint while in a "high security area". In order to do just about anything character development related the player must venture out into "low security" PVP areas. Note: I'm not an expert on WoW, I don't play it, and don't have years and years of detailed experience with it. I'm just making general comparisons.

And I do play that game, and I'm telling you its nothing like that now :)
All its group content is instanced, and thus has 0 pvp risk. To put it in Eve terms, its like you could teleport from Jita to a lowsec Incursion site of your choice, run it for as long as you like without anyone else being able to enter it, teleport in any replacement ships as needed, and teleport back to Jita when you're done.
The daily questing is open world, and thus there is a tiny risk on pvp enabled servers. Imagine in Eve that if you got ganked, you respawned somewhere in the same system with an identical ship and cargo, but with 1 million less ISK in your wallet. That's the level of "risk" you're talking about.
TLDR version. Most modern MMOs have ultra safe instanced areas for Pve, and even their open world pvp is low risk because you don't lose your gear on death.

I'd happily go afk at my leisure on a pvp server because the worse case scenario is a 2 minute corpse run when I get back. I don't afk in highsec space, because I might come back minus an 80 million set of implants and a 5-500 million ISK ship.



Point taken :)

WoW (as usual) is a poor analogy and example then. I think that the message to new players should be stronger and more focused as "the 'real' content in Eve is in 0.0 and low sec space" in order to properly indoctrinate them and set the expectations such that they're not disappointed when they can't earn a significant living in high sec space by farming PVE content.

Intelligence shouldn't be free.   Mining, reloaded.   ADDICTED.

Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
#26 - 2011-11-28 22:46:51 UTC
I'd wished people would tear into my ideas like they do so many others 've see get torn up around here.

Its mind numbing to know I get so few replies or complaint other than length and those who actually forgo reading the whole idea are so overwhelmed with glee they spasmastically forget to post any complaint they might have had.

Le Sigh...

As for your ideas lets see.

1. iffy needs more purpose also there need to be better segreation between the different spaces.
2. Ish and as mentioned there are third party packet sniffers already measure the metrics.
3. Mentioned and already noted.
4. Its a current long term goal after all there are about 150,000 different npcs in the game already being worked on
5. Mineral sinks are in place what is needed is pure isk sinks. The term you're looking for is plugging mineral facuets.
6. Been there done that and omg was it bad and high seccers just ran lvl 3s in thier faction battleships machs became the new favorite toy because of the speed alone.
7. Currently suffering form said diversity. goonswarm hogging all the blue ice and choking other guys to death with it.
8. Some of these suggestions and thier replacemtns are actually much more manpower intesensive than you think they would be. Largest chunks in planning and quality assurance. Some of these suggestioions have already or will take multiple expansions to hammer out entirely.

Dust 514's CPM 1 Iron Wolf Saber Eve mail me about Dust 514 issues.
Krios Ahzek
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#27 - 2011-11-28 22:53:39 UTC
Mors Sanctitatis wrote:
As the title says-

1. Put Local in “delayed mode” for *all* systems, regardless of security status. Constellation chat would provide enough precision with respect to who is located in what general areas as far as “finding a fight” goes, without providing information with extreme precision (“there is exactly X many players from Y group in this system).

2. Remove activity metrics from the stellar map. Space should be big and empty. There is no terrain in which to hide in. The emptiness needs to be the small group’s ‘cover’. The ability to hide from larger groups is what will make smaller groups capable of surviving in deep 0.0.


But what if I want to actually find people and not merely hide and survive in big and empty internet space?

 Though All Men Do Despise Us
Krios Ahzek
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#28 - 2011-11-28 22:55:41 UTC
Massively multiplayer single player game.

 Though All Men Do Despise Us
BigCountry
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
#29 - 2011-11-28 22:57:16 UTC  |  Edited by: BigCountry
wow another stupid "remove alloys"

BOTTOMLINE - You cannot remove alloys now .... heres why

1 - theres not enough miners or roids in the game to make up for the impact on the mineral supply that will be lost
2 - even if every miner out there started making double and triple what they make now all that would do is make ppl like me, who can mine but choose to do something else, to come out and start mining again. Therefore dropping the profits back down again..
3- now you have created yet another ISK - faucet ... right now alloys does not generate isk , it only facilitates the transfer of ISK...

Now the truths as they are right now --- Hisec mineral prices are higher then they have been in almost 3 years... go check for yourself .... its true

Also "hi-ends" are the only minerals that are below where they were 2 years ago and tahts only caused by dominion....

And before the sea of tears start flowing about the good old days before the drone regions --- The game changes... it affects everything , just think about supercaps--- motherships used to be worthless.. then when they became super carriers they made building them more profitable... now they are gonna lose some value...

Or remember back when battleships were king, that was good money then... Time for you peopel to evolve and adapt instead of shedding you baby tears and longing for the days of yore...


PS= I wanted to add--- Ill gladly go make raw isk and not have to put in extra work for it if they ever remove alloys...
Krios Ahzek
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#30 - 2011-11-28 22:59:51 UTC
BigCountry wrote:
wow another stupid "remove alloys"

BOTTOMLINE - You cannot remove alloys now .... heres why

1 - theres not enough miners or roids in the game to make up for the impact on the mineral supply that will be lost
2 - even if every miner out there started making double and triple what they make now all that would do is make ppl like me, who can mine but choose to do something else, to come out and start mining again. Therefore dropping the profits back down again..
3- now you have created yet another ISK - faucet ... right now alloys does not generate isk , it only facilitates the transfer of ISK...




Eve is THE place where the invisible hand of the market actually works.

Not enough minerals! Oh crap, prices go up.
Then it's logical again to stage huge mining ops.
Then people mine instead of bots.

 Though All Men Do Despise Us
BigCountry
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
#31 - 2011-11-28 23:05:13 UTC
Again wow--- while i dont condone botting , I am not naive enough to ignore the benefits botting has on the whole of eve.... maybe miners and myself who lives on alloys are affected but the sad part is , botters help bring in supply to meet demands....

And you think botting is bad now ?? gonna be much worse if they make mining as profitable as the forum babies are cryin out for
Avila Cracko
#32 - 2011-11-28 23:10:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Avila Cracko
BigCountry wrote:
wow another stupid "remove alloys"

BOTTOMLINE - You cannot remove alloys now .... heres why

1 - theres not enough miners or roids in the game to make up for the impact on the mineral supply that will be lost
2 - even if every miner out there started making double and triple what they make now all that would do is make ppl like me, who can mine but choose to do something else, to come out and start mining again. Therefore dropping the profits back down again..
3- now you have created yet another ISK - faucet ... right now alloys does not generate isk , it only facilitates the transfer of ISK...

Now the truths as they are right now --- Hisec mineral prices are higher then they have been in almost 3 years... go check for yourself .... its true

Also "hi-ends" are the only minerals that are below where they were 2 years ago and tahts only caused by dominion....

And before the sea of tears start flowing about the good old days before the drone regions --- The game changes... it affects everything , just think about supercaps--- motherships used to be worthless.. then when they became super carriers they made building them more profitable... now they are gonna lose some value...

Or remember back when battleships were king, that was good money then... Time for you peopel to evolve and adapt instead of shedding you baby tears and longing for the days of yore...


PS= I wanted to add--- Ill gladly go make raw isk and not have to put in extra work for it if they ever remove alloys...



And your "arguments" are not stupid because???
because your argument is "I" and "me" and "I" and "me"...
look a little on others and game itself and that all functioned and without you...
all that you wrote don't hold the water...

truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
Krios Ahzek
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#33 - 2011-11-28 23:18:57 UTC
BigCountry wrote:
Again wow--- while i dont condone botting , I am not naive enough to ignore the benefits botting has on the whole of eve.... maybe miners and myself who lives on alloys are affected but the sad part is , botters help bring in supply to meet demands....

And you think botting is bad now ?? gonna be much worse if they make mining as profitable as the forum babies are cryin out for


Yay, more easy targets for Hulkageddon

 Though All Men Do Despise Us
Borun Tal
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#34 - 2011-11-28 23:22:37 UTC
.. oh, and make everyone play Eve the way I think they should play.

Yeah, that should do it. Roll
Gerrick Palivorn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#35 - 2011-11-28 23:26:46 UTC
Krios Ahzek wrote:
BigCountry wrote:
Again wow--- while i dont condone botting , I am not naive enough to ignore the benefits botting has on the whole of eve.... maybe miners and myself who lives on alloys are affected but the sad part is , botters help bring in supply to meet demands....

And you think botting is bad now ?? gonna be much worse if they make mining as profitable as the forum babies are cryin out for


Yay, more easy targets for Hulkageddon


We always need more targets to suicide gank! Lol

MMOs come and go, but Eve remains.  -Garresh-
Mukuro Gravedigger
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#36 - 2011-11-29 00:15:33 UTC
As a fellow (ex?) miner, BigCountry does have a point.

As the game expanded into bigger and bigger ships, the demand for minerals increased drastically to cover the building requirements. I doubt the number of real players increased proportionally to cover the demand. While I despise bots, the efficiency of these programs will always best a human: no need to stop for bathroom, drink, eat, rest, or sleep breaks. A bot is fearless: detect an enemy and do whatever it is programmed to do to deal with it. But a person constantly "looking over his (or her) shoulder" while punching d-scan every so many seconds will wear a person down. And perhaps I am being a bit naive, but I have some emotional attachment to this character. If I had a bot program running with (gobbledygook-name-here) and it got podded, I would not care. The same view that most people do not care how or where the minerals for their toys came from - they just want the finished toys.

I feel CCP does know there is a bot issue, especially with mining. Perhaps they felt when expanding the game there would have been an artificial barrier to obtaining bigger ships due to the overall human factor gathering a maximum amount of minerals per day. Yet the overall demand, along with the hopes of driving the market forward with more and more combat, had the mineral demands exceed the daily maximum amounts. So perhaps a "blind eye" was turned towards gathering. Yes, there was a time when CCP did increase the size of the asteroids that were spawned - perhaps with hopes of prompting people to mine. But with bot programs becoming even more efficient and potentially even more rampant in the game, real people will be far and few to running a mining profession - a profession everyone shuns, but will gladly accept what comes from it.

Changing the game in such ways as drone minerals and modules do not refine into minerals will not prompt more players to take up mining lasers. CCP publically naming and shaming known bot (and botters) might just prompt people to return to the belts.

Just my thoughts.
DarkAegix
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#37 - 2011-11-29 00:27:21 UTC
Change gate mechanics.
Right now, it's pretty terrible how you need a scout to see the other side.
I don't want gate-camps to be removed, but think that the danger should be when you're warping to a gate, not jumping into a new system.
So, make jumping into a new system fairly safe, and warping to a gate more dangerous. I don't want Warp to 15km as default, however, because that would be terrible.
Perhaps some kind of bubble which works in lowsec, but once you're on grid and inside the bubble, it has no effect on you.
Mors Sanctitatis
Death of Virtue
#38 - 2011-11-29 00:43:16 UTC
Mukuro Gravedigger wrote:
As a fellow (ex?) miner, BigCountry does have a point.

As the game expanded into bigger and bigger ships, the demand for minerals increased drastically to cover the building requirements. I doubt the number of real players increased proportionally to cover the demand. While I despise bots, the efficiency of these programs will always best a human: no need to stop for bathroom, drink, eat, rest, or sleep breaks. A bot is fearless: detect an enemy and do whatever it is programmed to do to deal with it. But a person constantly "looking over his (or her) shoulder" while punching d-scan every so many seconds will wear a person down. And perhaps I am being a bit naive, but I have some emotional attachment to this character. If I had a bot program running with (gobbledygook-name-here) and it got podded, I would not care. The same view that most people do not care how or where the minerals for their toys came from - they just want the finished toys.

I feel CCP does know there is a bot issue, especially with mining. Perhaps they felt when expanding the game there would have been an artificial barrier to obtaining bigger ships due to the overall human factor gathering a maximum amount of minerals per day. Yet the overall demand, along with the hopes of driving the market forward with more and more combat, had the mineral demands exceed the daily maximum amounts. So perhaps a "blind eye" was turned towards gathering. Yes, there was a time when CCP did increase the size of the asteroids that were spawned - perhaps with hopes of prompting people to mine. But with bot programs becoming even more efficient and potentially even more rampant in the game, real people will be far and few to running a mining profession - a profession everyone shuns, but will gladly accept what comes from it.

Changing the game in such ways as drone minerals and modules do not refine into minerals will not prompt more players to take up mining lasers. CCP publically naming and shaming known bot (and botters) might just prompt people to return to the belts.

Just my thoughts.



A few thoughts:

1. I think that the single #1 place CCP could help this game with respect to botting is mining. Breaking the use of bots for mining should be at the top of CCP's list.

2. Even though the first point would radically alter the game if successful, it would eventually even out to a new equilibrium. So what if things were more expensive? It will be equal for everyone.

3. CCP needs to make mining fun- make it exciting, engaging and adventurous. Asteroids should be something that need to be sought out, pursued and finding the "mother lode" of ore should feel like an "EPIC WIN". Mining should be so cool and fun to do that even I would want to do it- a die hard pirate.

Intelligence shouldn't be free.   Mining, reloaded.   ADDICTED.

mkint
#39 - 2011-11-29 02:18:27 UTC
If all of those went in as is, I'd quit. Favoring long term my ass. Your suggestions punish everyone and benefit ccp rmt friends to such an extent that eve would no longer be worth playing for anyone. Eve already had too strong an rmt friends lobby and it will likely kill the game sooner rather than later.

Maxim 6. If violence wasn’t your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.
Lili Lu
#40 - 2011-11-29 03:02:28 UTC
Mors Sanctitatis wrote:
As the title says-

1. Put Local in “delayed mode” for *all* systems, regardless of security status. Constellation chat would provide enough precision with respect to who is located in what general areas as far as “finding a fight” goes, without providing information with extreme precision (“there is exactly X many players from Y group in this system).

For 0.0 yes, for high sec no, for low sec maybe ok just short delay.
Mors Sanctitatis wrote:

2. Remove activity metrics from the stellar map. Space should be big and empty. There is no terrain in which to hide in. The emptiness needs to be the small group’s ‘cover’. The ability to hide from larger groups is what will make smaller groups capable of surviving in deep 0.0.
No, but maybe increase the delay on the map a little bit.
Mors Sanctitatis wrote:

3. Remove “mining with guns”. Get rid of mineral drops from Drones. One of the worst game design choices ever.

4. (EDITED) Remove all Meta 0 drops from the game. In general, push as much into the hands of the players as possible with respect to creating items.

5. Mineral sinks- reduce the recycling efficiency of items. Recycling should be 50-80% efficient at the most, with all skills maxed. There should be value in repairing items.
#3 ok, but what these are replaced with is key. #4 and #5 agreed. I'm tired of melting so much tech I meta 0 drops and even though having trained scrapmetal processing I could accept some mineral loss.
Mors Sanctitatis wrote:

6. (EDITED) Risk vs. reward: Eve is the only game I know of where high level PVE content is available in “safe areas”. WoW’s high level content is restricted to “dangerous” areas of the game, Eve should be similar- move the best/most lucrative PVE content to 0.0 and low security space (I’m looking at you, Level 4 missions, high-sec Incursions etc.).
Level 4s are fine, high sec incursions need to be rebalanced downward on vanguards, maybe slightly upward on larger sites or at least stay the same.
Mors Sanctitatis wrote:

7. Build in diversity in space: make particular items available on markets only in high sec, low sec and 0.0 space. Boosters and drugs in general (and the materials to make them) available exclusively in low sec markets would be a good example/start. . . .

Dynamically distributed missions from agents/agent quality: the more used an agent is, the lower the quality becomes, thereby spreading the load across more agents/locations and providing more reward from little used/remotely located agents.

Can't really support these, but all-in-all a decent submission to the suggestion box for the game by the OP.
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