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[Rubicon 1.3] Drone Assist change

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Icylce
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1421 - 2014-03-04 08:26:54 UTC
So when u nerfed most things drone related recently, are u gonna actually fix drones in not so distant future. U know like next decade maybe?
Syri Taneka
NOVA-CAINE
#1422 - 2014-03-04 16:20:48 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
it still makes no sense .. how a ship can control more drones than its bandwidth allows which surely makes drone assist a ridiculous mechanic does it not???


The important mistake here is that an assisted ship is not actually in control of the drones (unlike, say, assigned fighters). The pilot who has assisted a fleet mate with drones is saying, "Follow this guy and engage anything he engages," or, in the case of defend, "Follow this guy and engage anything that engages him." In both cases, the host ship's computers are pulling target data from the fleet mate in question and relaying that information to their deployed drones, albeit rather automatically (and without having to lock the target themselves).

Though there are some reasonable expectations of how this mechanic will play out, it's far from perfect control. For instance, with assist, if the assisted craft switches targets, the drones assisting him will not follow suit - they will stay with the old target until it ceases to be a viable target. Viable target, in this case, means: alive and on grid.

If the host ship dies or leaves grid, the drones assisting go inactive. If the target is outside control range of the host ship, the drones loaned by that host will not engage (though they will remain engaged if the host strays outside of control range after the hosts' drones have engaged initially, just as they would if the host had commanded them to engage directly).
CCP Rise
C C P
C C P Alliance
#1423 - 2014-03-04 16:50:22 UTC
Just updated the thread title - this will be shipping in 1.3

@ccp_rise
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#1424 - 2014-03-04 18:17:53 UTC  |  Edited by: MeBiatch
Rise respectfully we have 71 pages and not one substantial change to your op. I feel this was the wrong forum to announce the changes as its natural for a features thread to include iteration...
Perhaps you should post set in stone changes like this in the test server forum so that we players have acceptable expectations and wont fill 70 pages in an attempt to iterate on said idea.

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
Udonor
Doomheim
#1425 - 2014-03-05 08:11:36 UTC
Hmmm...if drones did not have so many hits compared to frigates -- then you could have solved this with large area but weak smart bombs or reduced yield bombs.

It just seems to me that concentrating drones in one area via assistance is more realisticly an opportunity for massive destruction of drones.

Perhaps the very idea of assistance is badly implemented. In theory the lending ship is supposed to still be directing the drones within computers. So in fact the guard command should be working fine...particularly since all the guard drones are concentrated in one place for "easy" mass destruction by a single bomb (even understrength version -- capital launched super torpedo?). The Guard command simply displaces the point for drone operation and could be run by the owning ship.

Assistance commands should probably require remote sensor link modules to the original drone owning ships so that targeting info is RT available to the drone directing computers. This definitely would increase the ratio of active players to drones passively employed.

It might be further limited to targets designated by unit (squad to fleet) commanders - that is unit commanders have to do the remote target linking for their units and then select targets which get assistance calls. Or if that is considered too burdensome (gives squad commanders something to do) maybe the remote fleet targeting is a new gang link mountable only on Command Ships.

Also drones that leave the command range of the owning ship should continue to go inert. You could add a background EW noise number for fleet battles that disables regaining control of drones that have gone out of range before any official disconnect occurs.... or at least decreases the range at which control can be regained once lost and depending on battle size.
Assistance commands would then tend to lose lots of drones due to issues tracking differing command ranges.

Udonor
Doomheim
#1426 - 2014-03-05 08:13:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Udonor
Rule of 50? I predict you just increased the number of controlling people slightly but the drones still get directed against a common target within seconds. And since drones are mainly against targets that don't instapop -- everyone is still bored once the drones are pointed to buzz against that capital ship for 30-90 minutes.

IdeaIf you want to make drones more exciting -- make deploying drone swarms against capitals rather pointless. Killing smaller ships is much more dynamic. For instance give all the capital ships an option for a drone killer smartbomb or micro-doomsday module that can fire once every 20 seconds -- or Evil better a new capital only module that kills drone command links within say 15km rendering drones inert.

But overall I think the issue is a bit BS. Drones inherently tend to passive playing during blob warfare even if no assistance or guard commands exist. If you got guns to manage in chaotic battle and assistance is not in effect...then what are the chances your drones are just set on aggressive. Carrier pilots? ...well honestly that is choosing boredom because you are mainly drones and regardless of who directs your drones the target they are on is likely among the largest enemy ships. You know the ships which take the longest time to knock down especially when properly logi supported. So carrier pilots are just gonna end up waiting unless they ignore the common good of the fleet and just decide to go hunting personal trophy killmails from the BS and Command ship ranks.
I've got himtackled
Doomheim
#1427 - 2014-03-05 23:12:04 UTC
Udonor wrote:
Hmmm...if drones did not have so many hits compared to frigates -- then you could have solved this with large area but weak smart bombs or reduced yield bombs.

It just seems to me that concentrating drones in one area via assistance is more realisticly an opportunity for massive destruction of drones.

Perhaps the very idea of assistance is badly implemented. In theory the lending ship is supposed to still be directing the drones within computers. So in fact the guard command should be working fine...particularly since all the guard drones are concentrated in one place for "easy" mass destruction by a single bomb (even understrength version -- capital launched super torpedo?). The Guard command simply displaces the point for drone operation and could be run by the owning ship.

Assistance commands should probably require remote sensor link modules to the original drone owning ships so that targeting info is RT available to the drone directing computers. This definitely would increase the ratio of active players to drones passively employed.

It might be further limited to targets designated by unit (squad to fleet) commanders - that is unit commanders have to do the remote target linking for their units and then select targets which get assistance calls. Or if that is considered too burdensome (gives squad commanders something to do) maybe the remote fleet targeting is a new gang link mountable only on Command Ships.

Also drones that leave the command range of the owning ship should continue to go inert. You could add a background EW noise number for fleet battles that disables regaining control of drones that have gone out of range before any official disconnect occurs.... or at least decreases the range at which control can be regained once lost and depending on battle size.
Assistance commands would then tend to lose lots of drones due to issues tracking differing command ranges.


Tell me more about how destroying drones means anything when carriers carry literally 1000 sentries
Ncc 1709
Fusion Enterprises Ltd
Pandemic Horde
#1428 - 2014-03-10 17:27:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Ncc 1709
Make DD's aoe scriptable (maybe 10k no skill/ 15k max skill hp aoe dd
then subcap Drone problem solved
Lag solved
no more drone boat concepts for fear 1 titan will wipe the grids drones

titan pilots happy
drone fleets nerfed without a nerf
Desert Ice78
Gryphons of the Western Wind
#1429 - 2014-03-11 15:28:25 UTC
MeBiatch wrote:
Rise respectfully we have 71 pages and not one substantial change to your op. I feel this was the wrong forum to announce the changes as its natural for a features thread to include iteration...
Perhaps you should post set in stone changes like this in the test server forum so that we players have acceptable expectations and wont fill 70 pages in an attempt to iterate on said idea.

La, la la, can't hear you....

I am a pod pilot: http://dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/DesertIce/POD.jpg

CCP Zulu: Came expecting a discussion about computer monitors, left confused.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#1430 - 2014-03-11 17:21:54 UTC
Oh Takashawa wrote:

"Everyone having fun" is all well and good as a slogan, but the reality is that force multipliers have and should remain a key part of EVE - if you don't have a big pile of dudes, your options are more restricted, but there have always been strategies you can pursue to punch above your weight. CCP is removing those, slowly but surely, and as a member of a group that enjoys not being blue to 70% of EVE, that's a bit frustrating to watch. I'm simply curious whether that's the direction CCP wants us to go - whoever has more dudes wins, end of discussion - or if it's simply an accident on their part?


Apparently, your alliance bringing in less subs makes you less relevant in game balance. Pirate

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Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#1431 - 2014-03-11 18:07:24 UTC
drone assist needs to be purged with FIRE!!!!! Evil

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Fix Sov
#1432 - 2014-03-11 18:40:56 UTC
Apparently some people think that a counter to numbers isn't actually countered by numbers, and as such is immune to adoptation by the side which brings numbers to begin with.

The current sov system is too heavily reliant on the defender saving systems by stuffing as many people as possible into the system for the final timer, instead of incentivizing attacking (and defending) multiple systems at the same time by splitting their forces into multiple fleets and using actual intelligence/strategy. This must change.
Krimishkev
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1433 - 2014-03-11 20:31:41 UTC
"We feel that _giant lagging blobs of poo_, at a large scale, leads to _frustrating_ gameplay that most players do not enjoy.

Fixed it for you.
Fix Sov
#1434 - 2014-03-11 20:42:25 UTC
Krimishkev wrote:
"We feel that _giant lagging blobs of poo_, at a large scale, leads to _frustrating_ gameplay that most players do not enjoy.

Fixed it for you.

Solution: fix sov.

The current sov system is too heavily reliant on the defender saving systems by stuffing as many people as possible into the system for the final timer, instead of incentivizing attacking (and defending) multiple systems at the same time by splitting their forces into multiple fleets and using actual intelligence/strategy. This must change.
General Banks
Perkone
Caldari State
#1435 - 2014-03-11 21:29:36 UTC
Would a skill to increase the maximum number of drones that could be assigned to someone be out of the question??
Leeloo Alizee
Orion Constellation Inc.
#1436 - 2014-03-11 23:35:28 UTC
There are few easy and efective way to do it, but nooooo, you have to nerf whole system

1 you could nerf only sentri drone assistance
2 you could nerf sentri drone tracking speed
3 you could switch domi and navy domi bonuses, lets see how many people will use epencive domi in pvp.
4 Drones to be easier to pop

soooo many posibilitis, now we cant even assist warriors in assault fleet.

BTW, about 1 of your reasons: EVE may not have the twitchiest gameplay around, but drone assist goes too far and testimony from frustrated pilots..... <-----Ganked miners are even more frustrated and still no change, just oposite, its geting worse.
Verde Minator
Crack And Cookies For Santa
#1437 - 2014-03-12 06:32:55 UTC
i want to say good, but ummm, in a large fleet battle, you just assign your drones to your squad commander, 5 x 10 = 50, 5 wings doing this with 5 squads, each squad commander taking over the drones, with the fleet commander taking the wing commanders drones or whatever.. basically all you did was make some people change a little bit of doctrine, unless you wanted them to segregate the fleet a little bit, which i was hoping they were goign to do that back when i was in the cfc but no, blob fleets, so yes, i like this, but im pretty sure they already figured out what i did in just as much time. i can take control of a 250 man fleet and that's what i would tell everyone to do.. ild more or less have tacklers with 50 drones to keep the pod kills coming in ;p


or something...
Pufferfish Lemoncurry
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1438 - 2014-03-12 11:27:11 UTC
Good change, but 50 is still too much. I'd propose 25.

Cheers for the changes anyway.
Earthan
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1439 - 2014-03-12 18:23:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Earthan
I just resubscrubed after long break but hearing about assigning drones and doing nrearly nothign else as gneral rule of battle sounds maissively wrong, so that change sounds good to me.I mean it must freakign boring.

Also when allainceswant only dominixes/ishatars /proteuses as dmg dealers you know there is a massive unbalance in the force
Hannah Usoko
Seles Deep Space Industries
#1440 - 2014-03-12 20:42:35 UTC
Just an idea: make drone assist leadership skills and link modules

Without any skill, the player could control 5 assisted drones.
Drone Warfare skill: +3 assisted drones/ skill level,
Drone Warfare Specialist skill + Drone Warfare Link - Assisted Drone Control Link I: +5 assisted drones/ skill level
Drone Warfare Specialist skill V + Drone Warfare Link - Assisted Drone Control Link II: +5 assisted drones overall (5+15+25+5)

benefits:
- smaller ships could control max 20 assisted drones
- only command ships/battlecruisers etc. could control more drones
- new skillpoint sink

alternative way:
assisted drones would require limited bandwith from the ship which controls the drones. The skills and links would reduce the required bandwith

benefits:
- smaller ships could control even less assisted drones
- droneboats could control more assisted drones than non-droneboats
- only command ships/battlecruisers etc. could control many assisted drones
- new skillpoint sink