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Launching a warp disrupt probe will give you aggression and prevent you from docking or jumping.
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Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#81 - 2011-11-28 21:44:44 UTC
Patient 2428190 wrote:
Should have happened a long time ago.

Now we just need RR/assistance also counted as aggression.


+1.

Debate on this from either side is valid, but if you are RR/assisting someone it is because they have or are committing an act of aggression or are having aggression committed against them.

Your decision to RR/assist them makes you culpable as well, and the decision should have consequences.

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Aphoxema G
Khushakor Clan
#82 - 2011-11-28 21:50:15 UTC
cBOLTSON wrote:
Like others have said, no more dropping bubbles to slow down persuing attackers.


This does put an end to that tactic, unfortunately. Interdictors will just have to respond to threats the way any other ship would. It's not a defensive ship, it's an offensive ship with the purpose of stopping people from running away.

cBOLTSON wrote:
No more bubbling and jumping through a gate in fleet fights.


That is an unfair tactic that removes the aggressor from harm in a way no other ship has the convenience of exploiting.

cBOLTSON wrote:
Anyone who has actually flown a paper thin dictor will understand how these changes are bad.


Bad for abusive gameplay and people too afraid of consequences for their actions. I don't care how paper thin the ship is, it's purpose is to deploy a warp disruption field. If you want a little skin on top of that, get a HIC.
Hemmo Paskiainen
#83 - 2011-11-28 21:52:50 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:
Zagdul wrote:
I mean... you just removed so many tactics from the game from this simple change I can't even count.

If you wanna make a change to it, make it so that anyone engaging warp in a dicter bubble, no matter where that bubble is refreshes the dicters aggression.

But on launch... that's dumb!


So...... when YOU launch a dictor bubble you have no hostile intent. Smile
Would you be so kind as to list the benign reasons to launch a warp disruption probe?

Yes, some tactics will have to change. Notice "change" does not equate with "remove".


Easy,

1: u are small fleet chased by bigger fleet, small fleet jumps in system, diter waits and pasive alighns until whole friendly fleet is of gate and bug bubble mwd out and warp next gate. Intention is slowing down big fleet

2: Range fleet (snipers), dictor puts bubble between range fleet and other fleet to prevent warpins

3: While reinforcing structures dicter bubbles prevent hostile fleet and hostile bomber warpins

4: Prevent using jumpbridges (if that still works?)


If relativity equals time plus momentum, what equals relativity, if the momentum is minus to the time?
Hemmo Paskiainen
#84 - 2011-11-28 21:54:34 UTC
Vircomore Amilupar wrote:
Zagdul wrote:
Sentient Blade wrote:
Hang on... you're complaining that taking a hostile action gets you a an aggression timer?


LAUNCHING a bubble =/= agression.

Someone warping in a dicter bubble does.



And how many people do you know that choose to warp into a dictor bubble?

That's like blaming a bombing victim for walking over the tripwire. You are placing an "attack" in space - to say "that's not a crime until it hits someone" is the dumbest thing I've ever heard.


I do when:

1: there is a dum dictor on the gate and u want him to agroo so he cant jump, usualy when im in cloaky or with fleet.

If relativity equals time plus momentum, what equals relativity, if the momentum is minus to the time?
cBOLTSON
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#85 - 2011-11-28 21:54:38 UTC
Aphoxema G wrote:
cBOLTSON wrote:
Like others have said, no more dropping bubbles to slow down persuing attackers.


This does put an end to that tactic, unfortunately. Interdictors will just have to respond to threats the way any other ship would. It's not a defensive ship, it's an offensive ship with the purpose of stopping people from running away.

cBOLTSON wrote:
No more bubbling and jumping through a gate in fleet fights.


That is an unfair tactic that removes the aggressor from harm in a way no other ship has the convenience of exploiting.

cBOLTSON wrote:
Anyone who has actually flown a paper thin dictor will understand how these changes are bad.


Bad for abusive gameplay and people too afraid of consequences for their actions. I don't care how paper thin the ship is, it's purpose is to deploy a warp disruption field. If you want a little skin on top of that, get a HIC.


As far as I am aware every ship in eve can be used in any purpose it likes. There is no clear defensive or aggressive ship. Only what people do with them.

If everyone thinks this is a good change then I must have missed all of the talk and discussion on this topic....

Like I said the tactic is still viable, it just means the dictor pilot will have to be on his A game.

The good old days of Unreal Tournament, fragging and sniping on Facing Worlds, listening to Foregone Destruction.......
Hemmo Paskiainen
#86 - 2011-11-28 21:56:17 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:
Vircomore Amilupar wrote:
Zagdul wrote:
Sentient Blade wrote:
Hang on... you're complaining that taking a hostile action gets you a an aggression timer?


LAUNCHING a bubble =/= agression.

Someone warping in a dicter bubble does.



And how many people do you know that choose to warp into a dictor bubble?

That's like blaming a bombing victim for walking over the tripwire. You are placing an "attack" in space - to say "that's not a crime until it hits someone" is the dumbest thing I've ever heard.



Exactly.

The OP might have a point of if a warp disruption probe's effect was limited to merely stopping a ship from warping (not really, but lets be nice), however the fact that they can aggressively pull a ship out of warp if lined up properly means that ships could be pulled into a trap without any aggression flag activating on the launcher what-so-ever.

This puts it squarely into the realm of an item that has offensive uses beyond simply stopping someone that tries to activate warp inside it's area of effect.


U are really stupid, does this mean if u anchor a mobile bubble for yourselve (not corp) u deserve to get 24/7 agroo??

If relativity equals time plus momentum, what equals relativity, if the momentum is minus to the time?
Hemmo Paskiainen
#87 - 2011-11-28 22:03:00 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:
More to the point, they decided they didn't like the tactic of dropping a bubble and then jumping through a gate or docking.

Granted, the tactic made a dictor pilots life easier, and allowed them to drop, jump thru a gate, and get set up on the other side quickly and safely.

Now a second dictor (or it's equivalent) will be needed to secure both sides of a gate. Also, dictor pilots will be committed to being on the side where their bubble is, and any ensuing combat.

This will have a small but noticeable effect on dictor fittings... and the tactics FC's use, as well as to fleet composition.


Your resoning is really flawed,

Your dictor needs 2 bubble launchers for this: there is timer between launching bubbles (tactik is gone: always agroo dictor bubbles)
Your dictor loses dps and tank on this way
Your dictor need atleast 1 scram and 2 webs to slow down anything that is not a T1 hauler preventing from burning back to the gate

Fail with capital F

I bet u never flown a dictor

If relativity equals time plus momentum, what equals relativity, if the momentum is minus to the time?
Aphoxema G
Khushakor Clan
#88 - 2011-11-28 22:04:18 UTC
cBOLTSON wrote:
As far as I am aware every ship in eve can be used in any purpose it likes. There is no clear defensive or aggressive ship. Only what people do with them.


And an act of aggression deserves the same consequences for any ship. Interdictors do not deserve the freedom to bail out after participating. If someone wants to do that, they should set up stationary bubbles.

cBOLTSON wrote:
If everyone thinks this is a good change then I must have missed all of the talk and discussion on this topic....


Mob rule is not equal to democracy... well, not that EVE is anything of either sort, but just because the people who get screwed over aren't vocal about it makes their opinion any less important. This is a mechanic that gives the aggressor inherent strength over the victim.

Anyways, this is far from granting anyone the power to instantly murder interdictors, numbers still very much do matter and a situation where an interdictor is already involved is generally in the hands of a larger, better skilled fleet. This really is only a detriment to fleets that lacks a good technique.

cBOLTSON wrote:
Like I said the tactic is still viable, it just means the dictor pilot will have to be on his A game.


I wouldn't ask anything less from anyone, and now interdictors demand better discipline.
cBOLTSON
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#89 - 2011-11-28 22:09:26 UTC
Aphoxema G wrote:
cBOLTSON wrote:
As far as I am aware every ship in eve can be used in any purpose it likes. There is no clear defensive or aggressive ship. Only what people do with them.


And an act of aggression deserves the same consequences for any ship. Interdictors do not deserve the freedom to bail out after participating. If someone wants to do that, they should set up stationary bubbles.

cBOLTSON wrote:
If everyone thinks this is a good change then I must have missed all of the talk and discussion on this topic....


Mob rule is not equal to democracy... well, not that EVE is anything of either sort, but just because the people who get screwed over aren't vocal about it makes their opinion any less important. This is a mechanic that gives the aggressor inherent strength over the victim.

Anyways, this is far from granting anyone the power to instantly murder interdictors, numbers still very much do matter and a situation where an interdictor is already involved is generally in the hands of a larger, better skilled fleet. This really is only a detriment to fleets that lacks a good technique.

cBOLTSON wrote:
Like I said the tactic is still viable, it just means the dictor pilot will have to be on his A game.


I wouldn't ask anything less from anyone, and now interdictors demand better discipline.



Thankyou for the constructive critisism. Its a nice change from the usual forum rants.

The thing I mostly have a problem with is that deploying a bubble affects your own fleet as much as it would others. I dont see it as an act of aggression, more a landscape changer.

I suppose it could be argued that its changing the favour of the landscape to suit the dictor pilot. I dont know. I just dont like this change and think it is ill concieved.

Either way it is comming I guess so I will have to deal with it.

Still CCP sould REALLY discuss these sort of changes before hand......silly icelandic ruffians!

The good old days of Unreal Tournament, fragging and sniping on Facing Worlds, listening to Foregone Destruction.......
Aphoxema G
Khushakor Clan
#90 - 2011-11-28 22:09:57 UTC
Hemmo Paskiainen wrote:
U are really stupid, does this mean if u anchor a mobile bubble for yourselve (not corp) u deserve to get 24/7 agroo??


Nonsense, the problem here is excess protection and superiority for interdictors. If they want to run away, warp out. If they want to command both sides of a gate, bring two interdictors. Deploying a stationary field has its own risks and costs.

Hemmo Paskiainen wrote:
Your resoning is really flawed,

Your dictor needs 2 bubble launchers for this: there is timer between launching bubbles (tactik is gone: always agroo dictor bubbles)
Your dictor loses dps and tank on this way
Your dictor need atleast 1 scram and 2 webs to slow down anything that is not a T1 hauler preventing from burning back to the gate

Fail with capital F

I bet u never flown a dictor


It doesn't matter if a ship loses DPS if they never intend to use it. What has been done is launching the probe invokes an aggression timer. If after that timer ends the field spills anyone's milk it doesn't matter.
Hemmo Paskiainen
#91 - 2011-11-28 22:12:21 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:
Zagdul wrote:
Hamatitio wrote:
Tanya Powers wrote:
Zagdul wrote:
Please... Revert this change.

This change is wrong on so many levels.

Please explain the reasoning on this.


Why is it wrong?

If you target someone, choose to put a warp disruption probe on it, there's no reason you shouldn't have the aggression timer.
Act = consequence

You choose to drop your own bubble there, it's ok, you know you have consequences now and you will adapt or die.


Because you don't target anyone to launch it.

Hell let's make smartbombs cause aggression when it does no damage



This.

And Bombs, Combat Probes

Oh ****..

I launched drones, I've done an aggressive act.


When bombs detonate, they do give aggression. If you jump through a gate after launch, they simply do not explode.

Combat probes do not harm or affect any other ship, they simply help find them.

Drones do not harm or affect any other ship merely by being launched.

Warp disruption bubbles affect all other ships warping in line to the point in space where the probe is dropped. They affect a ships possible trajectory from the moment they are launched until the expire.

I know you want to launch and run, understandable.

I tell you what, if they decide to let me launch a bomb and then jump through a gate and still have it detonate... then you can have back your ability to do the same with warp disruption probes. Smile


Why would u lanch bombs? for fun like a dictor launches bubbles for fun?
Why would u launch combat probes? to find (hostile) ships for fun? like launching dictor bubbles?
Why would u launch combat drones? for fun? like dictor bubbles?

If CCP is rlly op they gave u agression only when someone warp inline to your bubble and shows agression timer. What u do is twisting facts around, its fail

If relativity equals time plus momentum, what equals relativity, if the momentum is minus to the time?
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#92 - 2011-11-28 22:12:27 UTC
Hemmo Paskiainen wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
More to the point, they decided they didn't like the tactic of dropping a bubble and then jumping through a gate or docking.

Granted, the tactic made a dictor pilots life easier, and allowed them to drop, jump thru a gate, and get set up on the other side quickly and safely.

Now a second dictor (or it's equivalent) will be needed to secure both sides of a gate. Also, dictor pilots will be committed to being on the side where their bubble is, and any ensuing combat.

This will have a small but noticeable effect on dictor fittings... and the tactics FC's use, as well as to fleet composition.


Your resoning is really flawed,

Your dictor needs 2 bubble launchers for this: there is timer between launching bubbles (tactik is gone: always agroo dictor bubbles)
Your dictor loses dps and tank on this way
Your dictor need atleast 1 scram and 2 webs to slow down anything that is not a T1 hauler preventing from burning back to the gate

Fail with capital F

I bet u never flown a dictor



First: Read the topic, THEN post. Most of your points have already been covered.

Second: All of the examples you have given in your flurry of posts are acts with that directly (adversely) affect your opponents ship, thus aggression is certainly not out of the question.

Third: I have likely forgotten more about flying dictors than you will ever know.

No, seriously, my memory is getting really bad lately. Smile

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Aphoxema G
Khushakor Clan
#93 - 2011-11-28 22:17:02 UTC
cBOLTSON wrote:
Thankyou for the constructive critisism. Its a nice change from the usual forum rants.


I'm happy you see if for that, most people assume I'm either trying to big word them to death or that I'm attacking them.

cBOLTSON wrote:
The thing I mostly have a problem with is that deploying a bubble affects your own fleet as much as it would others. I dont see it as an act of aggression, more a landscape changer.

I suppose it could be argued that its changing the favour of the landscape to suit the dictor pilot. I dont know. I just dont like this change and think it is ill concieved.


There may have been a better solution, there may have been hundreds of better solutions. There is the fact that if I drop a bomb, even on my own fleet, I'm still committing an act of aggression. The game doesn't know whether my fleet wanted me to do that or if I'm a sleeper "accidentally" attacking my own fleet, and it's not like anyone gets to opt out of a disruption field due to inconvenience.

cBOLTSON wrote:
Either way it is comming I guess so I will have to deal with it.

Still CCP sould REALLY discuss these sort of changes before hand......silly icelandic ruffians!


Though it is a change I like I am uncomfortable with the lack of warning. People who don't keep up on the patch notes won't have the opportunity to adapt. People who have better ideas don't have the chance to submit them. If this was a last-second decision, it was a mistake to drop it on us without an opportunity for testing/discussing.
Aphoxema G
Khushakor Clan
#94 - 2011-11-28 22:19:43 UTC
Hemmo Paskiainen wrote:
If CCP is rlly op they gave u agression only when someone warp inline to your bubble and shows agression timer. What u do is twisting facts around, its fail


If I launch a bomb/probe/anything else and my target just happens to get out of the way in time, do I deserve to wimp out and run off in a way formerly unique to interdictors?
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#95 - 2011-11-28 22:20:16 UTC
Quote:
People who don't keep up on the patch notes won't have the opportunity to adapt. People who have better ideas don't have the chance to submit them. If this was a last-second decision, it was a mistake to drop it on us without an opportunity for testing/discussing.


Agreed.

I know they like to keep a few surprises under their hat, but this one has alternatives and would have benefited by exploring them with the community first.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Hemmo Paskiainen
#96 - 2011-11-28 22:21:05 UTC
L'ouris wrote:


I suppose it can strand the DIC in system, but I'm not sure that is 'unfair' for the delay tactic.



I would like u to invite to a roam of me after the patch. U may fly the dictor and i drop u in the middle of hostile space since u dont mind to:

A) get separate form the fleet
b) get separate by the fleet and slow it down after 15 mins due u need to catch them up
c) u need to log off due camps and get back on your own a day later
d) all the above + your evening is ruined due your fun is over


No one wants to fly a dictor after this change

If relativity equals time plus momentum, what equals relativity, if the momentum is minus to the time?
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#97 - 2011-11-28 22:26:19 UTC
Hemmo Paskiainen wrote:
L'ouris wrote:


I suppose it can strand the DIC in system, but I'm not sure that is 'unfair' for the delay tactic.



I would like u to invite to a roam of me after the patch. U may fly the dictor and i drop u in the middle of hostile space since u dont mind to:

A) get separate form the fleet
b) get separate by the fleet and slow it down after 15 mins due u need to catch them up
c) u need to log off due camps and get back on your own a day later
d) all the above + your evening is ruined due your fun is over


No one wants to fly a dictor after this change



I really shouldn't reply to you until you have the courtesy to read the thread before you post.

However, I will say that if the FC makes that call now he'd better have a damn good reason from this point on. If it's still his standard practice to get his fleet out of trouble, you're probably right... he won't have many dictor pilots willing to fly with him as his willingness to sacrifice them because he still needs his crutch is absurd.

Pst. When you have aggression at a gate, you don't have to wait 15 minutes to jump through. Smile

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Soi Mala
Whacky Waving Inflatable Flailing Arm Tubemen
#98 - 2011-11-28 22:30:47 UTC
Surely this should be changed for ALL area of effect weapons? After all, If you're firing smartbombs, or ECM bursts, you're doing so with hostile intent.

Otherwise, this is just discrimination yo'.
Aphoxema G
Khushakor Clan
#99 - 2011-11-28 22:32:43 UTC
Soi Mala wrote:
Surely this should be changed for ALL area of effect weapons? After all, If you're firing smartbombs, or ECM bursts, you're doing so with hostile intent.

Otherwise, this is just discrimination yo'.



I absolutely agree.
Hemmo Paskiainen
#100 - 2011-11-28 22:37:02 UTC
Aphoxema G wrote:
Hemmo Paskiainen wrote:
U are really stupid, does this mean if u anchor a mobile bubble for yourselve (not corp) u deserve to get 24/7 agroo??


Nonsense, the problem here is excess protection and superiority for interdictors. If they want to run away, warp out. If they want to command both sides of a gate, bring two interdictors. Deploying a stationary field has its own risks and costs.

No nonsense same resoning, why would u put up mobile bubble for other resons than agressions? u are trying to prevent ppl for warping or trying to alter their warp trajectory, same stuff, very flawed.....

Deploying stationary field? hics are crap, im awaiting for what range the T2 warp field gives. Currenty the hic at L5 gives 20km range. That is exacly the gate jump in range (18-22km). A hic with bubble up moves around 100m/s... a hic on a gate catching noting thats fast. U are sugesting dicters are over powered. By saying that i know u never flow onw. Pls link you dictor kills so i know where u are talking about and not trolling stuff where u have no clue about....... (mine u find here)


Aphoxema G wrote:
Hemmo Paskiainen wrote:
Your resoning is really flawed,

Your dictor needs 2 bubble launchers for this: there is timer between launching bubbles (tactik is gone: always agroo dictor bubbles)
Your dictor loses dps and tank on this way
Your dictor need atleast 1 scram and 2 webs to slow down anything that is not a T1 hauler preventing from burning back to the gate

Fail with capital F

I bet u never flown a dictor


Aphoxema G wrote:

It doesn't matter if a ship loses DPS if they never intend to use it. What has been done is launching the probe invokes an aggression timer. If after that timer ends the field spills anyone's milk it doesn't matter.



He was sugesting solo dicters using the dual probe tactic

If relativity equals time plus momentum, what equals relativity, if the momentum is minus to the time?