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Is skill training a bit too slow?

Author
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#61 - 2014-03-04 08:31:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Eccon Dustwaver wrote:
You are incorrect. It gives an advantage to the newbies by letting them catch up to us faster so that they don't feel weak and overpowered by the veteran players.

They don't catch up faster. Partly because “catching up” doesn't apply to the EVE skill system and partly because the older players train at the same increased speed. If anything, the older players train faster since they can optimise their attributes to a far higher degree and get more out of that increase.

Oh and…
Quote:
The Devs would be total idiots not to look into this issue.
They did. It has since been removed, having been replaced of sorts with age-imited implants (which, btw, benefit older players more).
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#62 - 2014-03-04 08:38:26 UTC
Eccon Dustwaver wrote:
Yes the training is in fact too slow. It is unfair to new players who ask for a level playing field. Those who are against lowering the training time are just Cowards and A-Holes who like to pick on lesser skilled newbies. I have been playing this game for a decade and know the attitude and nature of most EVE players and it isn't good. In the end it is the current attitude towards change that hurts this game. The Devs would be total idiots not to look into this issue.
Why should they have a level playing field? Coming into a competitive game and expecting a level playing field is like expecting to beat Garry Kasparov at chess when you only learnt how to Castle yesterday.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

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Baneken
Arctic Light Inc.
Arctic Light
#63 - 2014-03-04 08:40:54 UTC
What I would like is that learning a high rank (12-16) skills would have more 'oompfh' when you finally get that racial carrier lvl V after 38days then just adding a few percent of stats and a filled up certificate but then again it risks that we'd be back in 'skill x at least lvl V or bust' situation.
Jacob Holland
Weyland-Vulcan Industries
#64 - 2014-03-04 08:43:41 UTC
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
First, a disclaimer:

- The real-time training concept is great
- The 'order of magnitude' of the current training time feels right too. It gives you time to learn to fly stuff and makes that new ship class that you've waited weeks/months to get into all the more rewarding. It also gives progression in EVE that 'epic' pace that is pretty cool.

I occasionally think that the rank system stretches things too much - although primarily when I was doing time sink skills (Advanced Spaceship Command for example).
The base time is, in my opinion, actually too short. To get a rank 1 skill from skillbook to V is less than four days (with a peak remap and implants) - I would support stretching that to seven, a week to fully develop a skill seems about right.
Tacomaco
No Taxes just fun
#65 - 2014-03-04 08:51:02 UTC
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:

Why not speed up things just a little bit? Say, 5% to 10% max.

To make it fair for everybody, all active accounts would receive an SP bonus of exactly ( 1 / 0.95-0.9 -1 = ) 5.26%-11.11% of their current SP.


Why not, because CCP are clueless about new players. Until you get to 2-3 mil SP the the training rate should be accelerated to 500-1000% then they can reduces it gradually to current levels when you get to 5-6 mil SP. The training is filled with all kind of bottlenecks that keeps basically at the same level for weeks or even months.

Some player asked on the forum how to set a training plan because he was away for a month. Somebody answered him to put in queue a skill that takes a month to train. A month!!!!!

Then again fixing this horrid training mechanic would impact their pay2win model were new characters are trained and sold more or less for real money.

Shorter train time would mean more players and they don't really want more players.
Tacomaco
No Taxes just fun
#66 - 2014-03-04 08:55:24 UTC
Jacob Holland wrote:
[quote=Gully Alex Foyle]things too much - although primarily when I was doing time sink skills (Advanced Spaceship Command for example).
The base time is, in my opinion, actually too short. To get a rank 1 skill from skillbook to V is less than four days (with a peak remap and implants) - I would support stretching that to seven, a week to fully develop a skill seems about right.


Coming from a player almost 10 years in the game is no surprise.

Who knows, maybe in 10 years I'll have a similar opinion. That is if no other company takes the good ideas from Eve and makes a game that would get the Eve players base.
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#67 - 2014-03-04 09:06:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Tacomaco wrote:
Why not, because CCP are clueless about new players. Until you get to 2-3 mil SP the the training rate should be accelerated to 500-1000% then they can reduces it gradually to current levels when you get to 5-6 mil SP. The training is filled with all kind of bottlenecks that keeps basically at the same level for weeks or even months.
You need to brush up on your history, what you're suggesting would actually be a step backwards.

Newbies used to get a 100% boost to their skill training speed until they hit 1.6 million SP. It was removed when CCP dumped learning skills, and revamped the initial character stats so that your character attributes are a fair bit better than they were previously. Overall your character trains faster now than it has done at any time in the past.

Quote:
Some player asked on the forum how to set a training plan because he was away for a month. Somebody answered him to put in queue a skill that takes a month to train. A month!!!!!
And? It's been that way since day one.

Quote:
Then again fixing this horrid training mechanic would impact their pay2win model were new characters are trained and sold more or less for real money.
Pay2win? You're having a laugh, new characters ain't worth diddly in the character bazaar and they definitely aren't exchanged for real money, character sales are done with ingame currency, unless of course it's for sale on eBay which results in one thing, the ban hammer.

Quote:
Shorter train time would mean more players and they don't really want more players.
Of course they want new players, you're just spouting rubbish.

Quote:
Who knows, maybe in 10 years I'll have a similar opinion. That is if no other company takes the good ideas from Eve and makes a game that would get the Eve players base.
That's not going to happen, the best any rival will come up with is a wishy washy facsimile of Eve, and the majority of people play Eve precisely because it is a brutal game, wishy washy just isn't going to cut it for a lot of us.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

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Chianti
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#68 - 2014-03-04 09:07:37 UTC
Changing skill training time after so many years have passed would be totally unfair to those of us who have been here longest. You can't change rules in the middle of a game. It is unnecessary anyway since there is a lot you can do with any skill set. One of the things I love about Eve is that you need time and patience to work towards goals, it's not instant gratification then complain about no content like most MMO's.

Graduate of the Royal Amarrian Institute of Alt Posting, class of 2003.

Eccon Dustwaver
Excalibur Industries
#69 - 2014-03-04 09:23:26 UTC
Tacomaco wrote:
Jacob Holland wrote:
[quote=Gully Alex Foyle]things too much - although primarily when I was doing time sink skills (Advanced Spaceship Command for example).
The base time is, in my opinion, actually too short. To get a rank 1 skill from skillbook to V is less than four days (with a peak remap and implants) - I would support stretching that to seven, a week to fully develop a skill seems about right.


Coming from a player almost 10 years in the game is no surprise.

Who knows, maybe in 10 years I'll have a similar opinion. That is if no other company takes the good ideas from Eve and makes a game that would get the Eve players base.

Already happening. Star Citizen will be in alpha later this year and released in 2015. It is fully player funded btw.
Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
#70 - 2014-03-04 09:28:59 UTC
Skill training is too fast. Reduce it by 80%.

The Tears Must Flow

Arkady Romanov
Whole Squid
#71 - 2014-03-04 09:29:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Arkady Romanov
Eccon Dustwaver wrote:
Yes the training is in fact too slow. It is unfair to new players who ask for a level playing field. Those who are against lowering the training time are just Cowards and A-Holes who like to pick on lesser skilled newbies. I have been playing this game for a decade and know the attitude and nature of most EVE players and it isn't good. In the end it is the current attitude towards change that hurts this game. The Devs would be total idiots not to look into this issue.


If you've been playing this game for 10 years and think that having more SP is actually relevant once appropriate support skills have been trained up, then you are wrong. The reality is that there is a finite amount of skillpoints that are needed to be able to fly a given ship "perfectly."

The only difference once you achieve that threshhold is breadth of ship choices. SP is irrelevant.

Whole Squid: Get Inked.

Rashnu Gorbani
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#72 - 2014-03-04 09:45:34 UTC
The proposed 5-10% seems pretty arbitrary with no good reason provided. It could as well be 20%, or -10% and nothing really major would change. Seems pointless to me.
I just started training a 34 days skill on a char and, well, it's long but then I knew it will be when I made the skill plan in evemon.

I know that 1-2 weeks, months old characters are really impatient, we all felt that when we were that new. But it's part of a challenge to find out what can you do with current skills, and what would be realistic short-mid-long term plans for you. Adjust skill plan for your game play goals. Don't make 2 year old plans on new characters unless it's an alt and you're really really patient...:) having realistic short term goals is important. Since the removal of learning skills it's very possible as well.
Storm Novah
Yada Industries
#73 - 2014-03-04 10:08:34 UTC
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
First, a disclaimer:

- The real-time training concept is great
- The 'order of magnitude' of the current training time feels right too. It gives you time to learn to fly stuff and makes that new ship class that you've waited weeks/months to get into all the more rewarding. It also gives progression in EVE that 'epic' pace that is pretty cool.


But...


Why not speed up things just a little bit? Say, 5% to 10% max.

To make it fair for everybody, all active accounts would receive an SP bonus of exactly ( 1 / 0.95-0.9 -1 = ) 5.26%-11.11% of their current SP.

So all EVE players, new and old, would be able to do a little bit more stuff in the game. A new ship class, a bonus to the preferred weapon system, whatever.

My assumption here is: a bit more opportunites for all = a bit more fun for all. And since it would be percentage-based, it shouldn't really make things easier for new players at the expense of the vets. The vets would get a hefty SP bonus indeed! That they could maybe use to more easily kill that HAC that the younger player just got into a few weeks earlier than before... Win-win maybe?

Wouldn't we all love this? Wouldn't it also boost active player numbers ('hey lemme go try that brand new toy')?

Final disclaimer: I know most threads are whiney these days. I'm not complaining, I'm a patient dude and I have tons of fun flying just frigs and dessies atm. Just thought this could be reasonable and a nice present for every EVE player Big smile

I have no idea if this was even touched on as I didn't bother to read every single response in the thread. But I think that because Eve has such a high learning curve compared to other games the pacing of skill training as it stands is a huge benefit to new players.
For some people first starting Eve the game can be very overwhelming. There is a lot to see, do and learn. The way the skills train allows for a players game knowledge to keep pace with their skill training. A player can get into a standard t1 battleship in about 3-4 days. I wouldn't advise it as it would be virtually impossible to fit it well enough to do much with it... but it is doable. Here is the problem: a new player doesn't have the support skills... but even MORE paramount imo is the fact that they don't have the knowledge necessary (even WITH the skills) to make it an effective platform. That's what training time in Eve can really do for a new player. It lets them fly the smaller ships and gives them the experience they need to make each platform they train into all the more effective.
I am at 40+m sp right now and even though I have the experience necessary to fly most standard battleships... when I get my marauder I am still going to take my time with it to get used to how it flies, to see how fast it kills, to get an overall feel for how the performance of the ship will enhance my gameplay. But it takes... TIME. And as you are training your skills you have just that... time.
Just my thoughts. Good luck in game.
seth Hendar
I love you miners
#74 - 2014-03-04 10:19:04 UTC
GreenSeed wrote:
the rate is fine, given the absolutely ZERO risk in gaining it. unless you are stupid and like to pvp with a set of +5s...

would be nice to get all the way to +7s, but say, you must have a "training slot" available on a POS module of sorts. that way you are forced to join/create a corporation, and also forced and rewarded by having and defending a POS.

so long as the POS is standing and enough slots are available every character on that corp can benefit from the training bonus.

i don't think its a terrible idea, and training implants need to die.

i do pvp witha full set of +5 (all implants ecept charisma one) since almost 2 years, never lost it.

granted it is low sec, but it is possible, the odds of getting your pod killed are really low down there unlike null and wh.

indeed, i DO however switch to a less expansive pod sometimes, mostly because i go null or wh, but overall, i don't spend more than a week / year in low with a non +5 pod. and i do pvp every day.

just know what you are doing, and accept you might loose it.
Tacomaco
No Taxes just fun
#75 - 2014-03-04 10:27:14 UTC
Rashnu Gorbani wrote:

I know that 1-2 weeks, months old characters are really impatient, we all felt that when we were that new.


That's the problem here, for new charactes looking at the training queue is like watching grass grow. Probably none of the CCP devs ever looked at this from the perspective of a new players since the game launched.

Then some 5 year old players completely unable to put them self in the shoes of the new players come here with ideas like "oh, no, training is too fast"
Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#76 - 2014-03-04 10:29:54 UTC
Thanks to everyone for your feedback.


So far I counted:

. Toons that would leave things exactly as they currently are: 38 (a few light trolling / fooling around posts included)

. Toons that suggest some other change, but are still against the idea of faster training + SP bonus for all players: 7 (a few 'make it easier just for newbies' whines included, because yes my idea was intended to give vets a bigger advantage)

. Toons in favour of the idea: zero!


So 100% NO, of which 84% 'change nothing'. Amazing, I knew EVE players were hardcore, but this goes beyond my expectations!


So if say, next Christmas CCP gave all players a +5% SP gift instead of a Fedo, everybody would be very pissed off and come to the forums to say 'TAKE THE SP BACK, I WANT MY FEDO!'.

Cool! Big smile

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#77 - 2014-03-04 10:34:05 UTC
Tacomaco wrote:
That's the problem here, for new charactes looking at the training queue is like watching grass grow.
That's the problem right there: they shouldn't be looking at the training queue; they should be playing and learning the game.
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#78 - 2014-03-04 10:37:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Tacomaco should be required to train all of the learning skills, to level 5. It'd give them an idea of just how much better the skill training mechanic is now compared to the past.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

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Storm Novah
Yada Industries
#79 - 2014-03-04 10:54:30 UTC
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
Thanks to everyone for your feedback.


So far I counted:

. Toons that would leave things exactly as they currently are: 38 (a few light trolling / fooling around posts included)

. Toons that suggest some other change, but are still against the idea of faster training + SP bonus for all players: 7 (a few 'make it easier just for newbies' whines included, because yes my idea was intended to give vets a bigger advantage)

. Toons in favour of the idea: zero!


So 100% NO, of which 84% 'change nothing'. Amazing, I knew EVE players were hardcore, but this goes beyond my expectations!


So if say, next Christmas CCP gave all players a +5% SP gift instead of a Fedo, everybody would be very pissed off and come to the forums to say 'TAKE THE SP BACK, I WANT MY FEDO!'.

Cool! Big smile

Giving a 1 time bonus as a gift is not the same as a consistent permanent change.
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#80 - 2014-03-04 11:26:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Hasikan Miallok
Tacomaco wrote:
Rashnu Gorbani wrote:

I know that 1-2 weeks, months old characters are really impatient, we all felt that when we were that new.


That's the problem here, for new charactes looking at the training queue is like watching grass grow. Probably none of the CCP devs ever looked at this from the perspective of a new players since the game launched.

Then some 5 year old players completely unable to put them self in the shoes of the new players come here with ideas like "oh, no, training is too fast"



That is the problem ... WATCHING THE TRAINING QUEUE ...

Stop watching the training qqueue and play the d@mn game.

The real issue with new players is they come from other games and have no idea how irrelevant SP is in this game.

It takes over 20 years to train all skills so no one can WIN the SP thing. Most of my characters are only one or two month trained. Most older players stop training characters once they can do what they need to. A viable faction war character only needs 6 or 8 weeks training max.

Plus if you really want a high SP character just go to the character bazaar and get one.

Aside from anything eelse dumbing down games to suit whiney noobs has never helped any game ever ... just look what happened to D&D with 4th edition.