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When will capitals be balanced?

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IbanezLaney
The Church of Awesome
#41 - 2014-03-04 02:10:39 UTC
Markku Laaksonen wrote:



Summer is typically understood to be the period between sometime in May until sometime in August. Use your best judgment.



Your summer is typically understood to be Winter in the opposite hemisphere.

Who knew there was stuff outside McMerica and that the Earth spins on an axis of 23.4 degrees.....................




School ...... You should have attended.

https://soundcloud.com/ibanezlaney
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#42 - 2014-03-04 02:51:30 UTC
IbanezLaney wrote:
Markku Laaksonen wrote:



Summer is typically understood to be the period between sometime in May until sometime in August. Use your best judgment.



Your summer is typically understood to be Winter in the opposite hemisphere.

Who knew there was stuff outside McMerica and that the Earth spins on an axis of 23.4 degrees.....................




School ...... You should have attended.




First of all kiss my ass

second of all I know summer extends until September.
Derath Ellecon
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#43 - 2014-03-04 02:55:09 UTC
IbanezLaney wrote:
Markku Laaksonen wrote:



Summer is typically understood to be the period between sometime in May until sometime in August. Use your best judgment.



Your summer is typically understood to be Winter in the opposite hemisphere.

Who knew there was stuff outside McMerica and that the Earth spins on an axis of 23.4 degrees.....................




School ...... You should have attended.




Summer in terms of this discussion and CCP would be when it is Summer for CCP. It is typically called context. Also something learned in school. Nice try though.
Hagika
Standard Corp 123
#44 - 2014-03-22 17:49:41 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
We're getting there.

During the Tiericide project, we first wanted to go through the most common classes first, by starting with Tech 1 and Tech 2, then moving into more advanced hulls.

There are some ships left to tackle on the Tech 2 category that need love. When done with that and pirate ships, our next step is to start looking at Tech 3 ships, then capitals.



How about the phoenix? Seriously is it some sick joke that torps,capital missile systems and the phoenix just sucks compared to the rest.

Even the Nag got a huge buff and just put the other 3 Dreads have a huge gap over the caldari version.
Salpad
Carebears with Attitude
#45 - 2014-03-23 01:57:59 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
There are some ships left to tackle on the Tech 2 category that need love. When done with that and pirate ships, our next step is to start looking at Tech 3 ships, then capitals.


There are no ships left to tackle in the Tech 1 category?

WTF????!?!?!?!!111!1
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#46 - 2014-03-23 10:50:09 UTC
Which T1 sub caps haven't had a tiercide balance pass ?

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Salpad
Carebears with Attitude
#47 - 2014-03-23 21:39:10 UTC
Orca, Freighters.

Freighters may count as capitals, in your book, but Orca sure doesn't in mine.
Salpad
Carebears with Attitude
#48 - 2014-03-23 21:41:25 UTC
For that matter, the Noctis hasn't had any tiercide changes either. And that most definitely is not a capital ship.

But I can understand it if CCP want to wait at least 2-4 months before making any changes to the Noctis, so they can observe the effects of salvage drones, mobile tractor units and so forth.

Orca and Freighters, though. They've been like they are for a looong time. They need to get looked at, by open-minded game designers.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#49 - 2014-03-23 22:06:12 UTC
Be careful what you wish for...

Very careful at that.
Icylce
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#50 - 2014-03-24 11:55:17 UTC
Rab See wrote:


Ok - I would trade - and I mean this sincerely, the drone per level bonus on the Nid. Something needs to be sorted in the context of its turd status. Fitting is a joke as is its capacitor. Hell, lets make it a cap use by reppers bonus and dump the drone bonus.

On the supers mirror bonus, what use are the repping bonuses of the Thanatos and Nid when it comes down to cap transfers and range, and we all know how crap Supers are for that role. The only real use in Supers is cap transfer for capping up where range is key in gangs.


Drone per level bonus is not nids bonus, it is general carrier bonus. Doing smt like that would be out of whack imho.
Markku Laaksonen
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#51 - 2014-03-24 12:51:11 UTC
Derath Ellecon wrote:
IbanezLaney wrote:
Markku Laaksonen wrote:
Summer is typically understood to be the period between sometime in May until sometime in August. Use your best judgment.

Your summer is typically understood to be Winter in the opposite hemisphere.

Who knew there was stuff outside McMerica and that the Earth spins on an axis of 23.4 degrees.....................

School ...... You should have attended.


Summer in terms of this discussion and CCP would be when it is Summer for CCP. It is typically called context. Also something learned in school. Nice try though.


This was said much nicer than I would have.

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Quish McQuiddy
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#52 - 2014-03-24 13:06:54 UTC
Icylce wrote:
Rab See wrote:


Ok - I would trade - and I mean this sincerely, the drone per level bonus on the Nid. Something needs to be sorted in the context of its turd status. Fitting is a joke as is its capacitor. Hell, lets make it a cap use by reppers bonus and dump the drone bonus.

On the supers mirror bonus, what use are the repping bonuses of the Thanatos and Nid when it comes down to cap transfers and range, and we all know how crap Supers are for that role. The only real use in Supers is cap transfer for capping up where range is key in gangs.


Drone per level bonus is not nids bonus, it is general carrier bonus. Doing smt like that would be out of whack imho.


I think its evident that the Nid is totally broken. There is no rational use for it except in the most odd of edge cases. The bit about losing the most basic carrier bonus reinforces the point about how duff it is. My corpies who fly carriers wouldnt touch it ever. Its archon this/that etc, maybe Thanny for POS work, deffo Chimera for WH work when its bonused.

The Nid and Thanny suffer though, cap and range of cap make them gang useless ... pretty much everything is wrong with the Nid, the Thanny needs a bit more (but not stepping on the Nyx) and the Chimera ... fitting. Dont dump on the Archon though, the whines would make my dog howl.
Rab See
Stellar Dynamics
#53 - 2014-03-24 14:02:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Rab See
I have finally worked out how to get the Nid to work.

Fly them in twos.

One Shield Rep, Armour tanked.
One Armour Rep, Shield tanked.

Of course, it all makes sense, get me another account waiter, I need to train it up for a useless Carrier.

But watch out when one gets primaried ... as its has no cap and has no range. Just don't get bumped apart.

Voila - the new Niddy bonus ... to tractors. Can tractor its 'paired repper' back to it, bonuses to range and velocity, I see the new lowsec Noctis coming for its next niche role.
Nimrod vanHall
Van Mij Belastingvrij
#54 - 2014-03-25 08:24:15 UTC
IbanezLaney wrote:
Markku Laaksonen wrote:



Summer is typically understood to be the period between sometime in May until sometime in August. Use your best judgment.



Your summer is typically understood to be Winter in the opposite hemisphere.

Who knew there was stuff outside McMerica and that the Earth spins on an axis of 23.4 degrees.....................




School ...... You should have attended.



technically summer is between june 21'th and september 20'th in the northern hemisphere and between december 21'th and march 20'th on the southern hemisphere
RcTamiya Leontis
Magister Mortalis.
#55 - 2014-03-25 12:20:19 UTC  |  Edited by: RcTamiya Leontis
Yes nid needs some love, is it totaly useless ? definetly not, if you spend some money on its fit, as you should for wspace, it becomes a very decent dou or solo triage which can be used for repping armor fleet while assisting shielddreads which fall out of siege ( cuz nag (and pheonix, yes it does work, no i wont share fit, yes it outperforms other blapdreads)>>>>>>>>others in wspace pvp, FACT), an archon CAN'T do that, also i lost count on my nidhis combats until it finally died to a mistake of my FC, not of the ship itself, it reaches equal or better cap recharge than an archon, however if you spend the same amount of isk to an archon you get more sustained dps tank out of it, my record was tanking 4 dreads ( 3 mori 1 nag) with my nidhi for 1 hour, but ye archon feels a lot easier to handle in that pressure.
My experience most likely is that nidhi felt easier vs subcap fleets ( 1 rep was enough when the archon did need 2, can be important if hostiles switch targets frequently) and archon felt easier while under fire from dreads, however i wouldn't raise the cap trans argument here, capgaurdians to feed cap into flet & neuting ships should be the ships of choice (2-3 capguardians can feed cap to 4-6 bhaalgorns), not a carrier who's job it is to kep your fleet alive.
afkboss
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#56 - 2014-03-25 13:01:30 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
We're getting there.

During the Tiericide project, we first wanted to go through the most common classes first, by starting with Tech 1 and Tech 2, then moving into more advanced hulls.

There are some ships left to tackle on the Tech 2 category that need love. When done with that and pirate ships, our next step is to start looking at Tech 3 ships, then capitals.



While your doing tech II ships can you please give the sacrilege an extra low slot. Whats the point of a resists bonus when it has 2 less low slots than the zealot ....
Rab See
Stellar Dynamics
#57 - 2014-03-25 13:48:00 UTC
RcTamiya Leontis wrote:
Yes nid needs some love, is it totaly useless ? definetly not, if you spend some money on its fit, as you should for wspace, it becomes a very decent dou or solo triage which can be used for repping armor fleet while assisting shielddreads which fall out of siege ( cuz nag (and pheonix, yes it does work, no i wont share fit, yes it outperforms other blapdreads)>>>>>>>>others in wspace pvp, FACT), an archon CAN'T do that, also i lost count on my nidhis combats until it finally died to a mistake of my FC, not of the ship itself, it reaches equal or better cap recharge than an archon, however if you spend the same amount of isk to an archon you get more sustained dps tank out of it, my record was tanking 4 dreads ( 3 mori 1 nag) with my nidhi for 1 hour, but ye archon feels a lot easier to handle in that pressure.
My experience most likely is that nidhi felt easier vs subcap fleets ( 1 rep was enough when the archon did need 2, can be important if hostiles switch targets frequently) and archon felt easier while under fire from dreads, however i wouldn't raise the cap trans argument here, capgaurdians to feed cap into flet & neuting ships should be the ships of choice (2-3 capguardians can feed cap to 4-6 bhaalgorns), not a carrier who's job it is to kep your fleet alive.



Well - its saying something if it takes extras (faction/deadspace ...) and a WH of matching needs to make the Nid something. Sadly 99% of the time, its not WH space ... so its just crap, and saying that an archon does more in either context .. is saying nothing.

The Rep range and Cap range bonus on the two 'double bonused' hulls of the Archon and Chimera are what makes the imbalance. I will say it again .. if a capacitor/repping WH is necessary with some bling to make the Nid and Thanatos work, then we can see to some degree, how to fix them.

Other than the usual issues, working in gangs is what a carrier is for, and being the solo carrier is the Archons niche as it can recap you bhal instantly while repping it. That range makes it unassailable. Try getting a Nid to do that under cap pressure. It dies fast - its primaried for that reason.

Meh, we aren't going to change it by arguing, but I will be interested to see how the fix happens for it.
RcTamiya Leontis
Magister Mortalis.
#58 - 2014-03-25 14:16:43 UTC
Nidhi and archo nreach almost equal cap recharge levels, the difference is ~ the strenght of 1 heavy neut, it depends on your fit, however a 10k dps tanked nidhi (shield) has ~ 900 cap recharge/sec and costs ~ 2.6bil isk (including rigs & ship)
A 10k dps tanked archon is t2 fit and has 740 cap recharge/sec

The problem here is if you change 1 slot in this layout you are at ~ 15k dps tank with only 700 cap recharge/sec which is slighty less than archon with better burst tank.

The nidhi works better vs subcapital only fleets
The Archon works better vs dreads

Things which can affect this by a lot : Numbers.

A nidhi can still handle 2 bhaals and tank/rep an entire t3 fleet ~ 20 ppl strong
An archon can do that too

An archon CAN'T support shielddreads as a nidhi can, a nidhi can support them perfectly

Now lets see whats beeing used in 00 & LS -> Armor Blapdreads
The advantages of archon overwhelm the nidhi there, easy, but on the other hand in wspace, where things keep "small scaled" (related to 00 fleets), the nidhi will and does outpeform the archon in small scale if your fleet is setup around your carrier, which will then end in great effictiveness, of course its easier to pick archon and go all armor, is it more effective ? depends I'd say if you go for shielddreads, definetly not, we all talked about the uses of a nidhi, i told you the nidhi isn't that bad including examples etc
Just keep in mind, if a ship is useless in kspace it doesn't mean its not good somewehre else, in thsi case its good in wspace, nidhipantheon with all those midslots is something you shouldn't underestaminate in wspace ;)

So why setup a fleet around the carrier instead of just gabbin an archon ? Because you can then pick ships you can't otherwise (shielddreads, in cases of emergencies (can happen, shouldn't happen) even a shieldhic, etc)
You can use the same carrier to work either in pulsar or non-effect wormholes, archon in pulsar is ... meh
Vs heavy neuting the 200 cap/sec advantage is equall to at least 2 additional hostile neutlegions, this can make a change of death or surrive, however the basecap of an arhcon is bigger allowing to stay on grid longer if hostile neuting is equal to caprecharge
in case of using heavy cap booster to get ur cap back up when under VERY heavy neuts , 6 mids outperform 4 mids
Justin Cody
War Firm
#59 - 2014-03-25 15:45:40 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Maggeridon Thoraz wrote:
well i think very soon they will be balanced. currently have a toon training to carrier lvl 5 and shortly before done or just shortly after my skilling goal gets captured by ccp as it happend already 3 times to me. so in around 40 days from now... fly safe mates

I also have a character which will complete Amarr Carrier V in just over two weeks. I still think they need to be rebalanced.


They will be rebalanced and like other classes of ship (sabre et. al.) they will be rebalanced around the most commonly used class while still remaining unique. So the Archon will be the standard that all others are measured by.

what does this mean?

Summary:

Chimera, Thanatos and Nidhoggur Fittings issues will be addressed as well as capacitor issues. Chimera being the most energy intensive will likely appear to get the most help.

Questions remain as to a refocusing of Thanatos to armor...or keeping shield flexibility and ditto for Nidhoggur. I honestly like the flexibility of the Thanatos/Nidhoggur. It may not be perfect for null-sec fleets but with the rumors of some carrier nerf's incoming, the Thanny and niddy might get some advantages due to slot layout if nothing else.

*rumored nerfs/rebalances*
* carriers reduced to 5 fighters/drones like everyone else by default and forced to choose between drone/fighter dps for fit or repair power rather than being able to do all at once with very little downside. This reduces the scaling issue of carrier blobs somewhat.

I wouldn't be surprised if capital rep power was reduced outside of triage.
Rab See
Stellar Dynamics
#60 - 2014-03-25 16:09:18 UTC
RcTamiya Leontis wrote:
Nidhi and archo nreach almost equal cap recharge levels, the difference is ~ the strenght of 1 heavy neut, it depends on your fit, however a 10k dps tanked nidhi (shield) has ~ 900 cap recharge/sec and costs ~ 2.6bil isk (including rigs & ship)
A 10k dps tanked archon is t2 fit and has 740 cap recharge/sec

The problem here is if you change 1 slot in this layout you are at ~ 15k dps tank with only 700 cap recharge/sec which is slighty less than archon with better burst tank.

The nidhi works better vs subcapital only fleets
The Archon works better vs dreads

Things which can affect this by a lot : Numbers.

A nidhi can still handle 2 bhaals and tank/rep an entire t3 fleet ~ 20 ppl strong
An archon can do that too

An archon CAN'T support shielddreads as a nidhi can, a nidhi can support them perfectly

Now lets see whats beeing used in 00 & LS -> Armor Blapdreads
The advantages of archon overwhelm the nidhi there, easy, but on the other hand in wspace, where things keep "small scaled" (related to 00 fleets), the nidhi will and does outpeform the archon in small scale if your fleet is setup around your carrier, which will then end in great effictiveness, of course its easier to pick archon and go all armor, is it more effective ? depends I'd say if you go for shielddreads, definetly not, we all talked about the uses of a nidhi, i told you the nidhi isn't that bad including examples etc
Just keep in mind, if a ship is useless in kspace it doesn't mean its not good somewehre else, in thsi case its good in wspace, nidhipantheon with all those midslots is something you shouldn't underestaminate in wspace ;)

So why setup a fleet around the carrier instead of just gabbin an archon ? Because you can then pick ships you can't otherwise (shielddreads, in cases of emergencies (can happen, shouldn't happen) even a shieldhic, etc)
You can use the same carrier to work either in pulsar or non-effect wormholes, archon in pulsar is ... meh
Vs heavy neuting the 200 cap/sec advantage is equall to at least 2 additional hostile neutlegions, this can make a change of death or surrive, however the basecap of an arhcon is bigger allowing to stay on grid longer if hostile neuting is equal to caprecharge
in case of using heavy cap booster to get ur cap back up when under VERY heavy neuts , 6 mids outperform 4 mids


The problem here is simple.

Comparing apples with oranges ... Archon is better everywhere. Tank, repping, capping up, survival. With respect to all capital ops, what is the main use ... capping up, and range is key here. In triage, you rely on local reps and tank ... in pantheon you rely on tank and remote cap and reps, cap range again, resists on Archon and Chimera win outright.

You can pull out the edge cases of where its good. POS reps, suicide reps, shield reps .. well duh! Its better there, but tell me of any of the Nag or Pheonix pilots who need shield reps when cap will help their tanks more out of siege. Burn your cap in siege, then cap up out of it.

And delving into WHs. please link fits. a 2.5b fit ship needed to make it better than a 1.2b ship. No, thats not balanced, and please link me the 6 heavy cap booster fit you've got ... it has to be blingorama to cover fitting issues.

Anyone with sense in a WH chooses a doctrine. Choose armour, choose Archon, makes sense. In a shield WH, choose shield choose Chimera, makes more sense.

Whay can you fit an archon T2 with no trouble whatsoever, you can use CPRs with no issues, and then with a Nid (and the others) its a game of 'how can I squeeze it in'. Painfully, I love the Archon, but want to love them all in their own ways. Chimera should be easy to fit like the Archon, Thanny ... make it more than a Nyx in waiting, and Nid ... its time might come - it shouldn't be resigned to odd WH work or POS reps.