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EVE New Citizens Q&A

 
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Starting out Logistics.
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Herzyr
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#1 - 2014-03-01 17:45:36 UTC
Hello Fellow Capsuleers Big smile

I was wondering, what is the best way to get started or to get a ''taste'' of logistics without fully commiting via SP?
I know the logistics frigates are useless, it's the cruisers where the one truly experiences combat logistics but Tis the place where I have a lot of questions.
So far, I've been wanting to try armor logistics on my corps fleet since my combat experience is limited and I feel like playing as a logistics is the best way to get used to fleet battles since I cannot pilot big ships yet.
The following questions are intended for the Auguror/guardian and scythe/scimitar since they seem to be the best/or most used logi cruisers for fleet battles.

1. Do I really have to train up logistics V and Racial Cruiser V to experience logistics? So far I have enough SP to try my hand in logi with the T1 hulls but I'm wondering if they convey the real experience or is it a whole different beast with the T2 hulls?. I really don't want to waste 1-2 months of training just to find out that I don't like logi.

2.How many ships do you need before you can start a effective logi chain? From the Aura App fitter, I see that being alone its going to cap me out extremely fast.

3. Does logi even have a Ship Tier/Progression like combat ships? As far as I can see, the current progression goes frigate>Cruisers>Carrier(wtf)>supercarrier
Also, I see that few if none of the logistics skills carry over to the next tier, looking at carriers, Is this intended? Carrier as a RRS you need a whole different skillset just to operate.

4.Are the logistic cruisers intended to be the ultimate fleet RRS when it comes to Sub-Capital fleets? At a glance it seems like a carrier is more intended to rep a POS or structures in Nullsec or maybe other Capital ships?

5. Will the experience in the fleet as a Logi help me as a combat (dps) role? I tend not to stick around too much in one role since I like doing everything, if I don't, it ends with bitter vet syndrome, As they say, variety is the spice of life.

Thanks a lot in advance for any imput regarding these questions.
J'Poll
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#2 - 2014-03-01 17:47:44 UTC  |  Edited by: J'Poll
Herzyr wrote:
Hello Fellow Capsuleers Big smile

I was wondering, what is the best way to get started or to get a ''taste'' of logistics without fully commiting via SP?
I know the logistics frigates are useless,.


Stopped reading there.

As it's clearly how little you know about logistics and the impact of the logi frigates on certain fleets.

Personal channel: Crazy Dutch Guy

Help channel: Help chat - Reloaded

Public roams channels: RvB Ganked / Redemption Road / Spectre Fleet / Bombers bar / The Content Club
Herzyr
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#3 - 2014-03-01 17:50:44 UTC
J'Poll wrote:
Herzyr wrote:
Hello Fellow Capsuleers Big smile

I was wondering, what is the best way to get started or to get a ''taste'' of logistics without fully commiting via SP?
I know the logistics frigates are useless,.


Stopped reading there.

As it's clearly how little you know about logistics and the impact of the logi frigates on certain fleets.


My bad, im just talking out of my ass since I read that from the EvE Uni Wiki.
What I meant to say is that in the sense that they are very fragile, they will get primaried since they haz no tank and everyone hates EWAR and Logi.
The cruisers and above they can fit a good tank(according to the wiki).
J'Poll
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#4 - 2014-03-01 17:56:02 UTC
Herzyr wrote:

The following questions are intended for the Auguror/guardian and scythe/scimitar since they seem to be the best/or most used logi cruisers for fleet battles.

1. Do I really have to train up logistics V and Racial Cruiser V to experience logistics? So far I have enough SP to try my hand in logi with the T1 hulls but I'm wondering if they convey the real experience or is it a whole different beast with the T2 hulls?. I really don't want to waste 1-2 months of training just to find out that I don't like logi.

2.How many ships do you need before you can start a effective logi chain? From the Aura App fitter, I see that being alone its going to cap me out extremely fast.

3. Does logi even have a Ship Tier/Progression like combat ships? As far as I can see, the current progression goes frigate>Cruisers>Carrier(wtf)>supercarrier
Also, I see that few if none of the logistics skills carry over to the next tier, looking at carriers, Is this intended? Carrier as a RRS you need a whole different skillset just to operate.

4.Are the logistic cruisers intended to be the ultimate fleet RRS when it comes to Sub-Capital fleets? At a glance it seems like a carrier is more intended to rep a POS or structures in Nullsec or maybe other Capital ships?

5. Will the experience in the fleet as a Logi help me as a combat (dps) role? I tend not to stick around too much in one role since I like doing everything, if I don't, it ends with bitter vet syndrome, As they say, variety is the spice of life.

Thanks a lot in advance for any imput regarding these questions.


Okay:

0. Keep in mind that the Guardian/Augoror is a buddy based system and you can only truely use it if there are 3+ other fleet members in the fleet. Scythe / Scimi is a "solo" logi.

1. Yes. IV is BARE minimum...V is highly recommended. Less then IV is out of the question.

2. Technically 1 other will do...a set of 2 can cap-chain. Issue with that is that if one is jammed...you both die. So realistically you want 4+ for a reliable cap chain where you can adapt to jams and damps.

3. That's because they are basically a T2 ship...which are specialized ships. The T1 logi ships are less then a year old.

4. Yes and No...really depends on the fleet you are in. There are also fleet concepts that use (triage) carriers for logi support (Hints to the old RnK videos - Clarion Call 3 for instance).

5. Not really, logi operates totally different then combat people. The only thing you do learn is how fleet movement works, how blood pumping it will be and how you die (as logistics are usually on the very top level of priority ships to get of the field). You will never learn things like tackle, transversal management etc as logi likes to sit back on the end and stay out of harms way as much as possible.

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J'Poll
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#5 - 2014-03-01 17:57:19 UTC  |  Edited by: J'Poll
Herzyr wrote:
J'Poll wrote:
Herzyr wrote:
Hello Fellow Capsuleers Big smile

I was wondering, what is the best way to get started or to get a ''taste'' of logistics without fully commiting via SP?
I know the logistics frigates are useless,.


Stopped reading there.

As it's clearly how little you know about logistics and the impact of the logi frigates on certain fleets.


My bad, im just talking out of my ass since I read that from the EvE Uni Wiki.
What I meant to say is that in the sense that they are very fragile, they will get primaried since they haz no tank and everyone hates EWAR and Logi.
The cruisers and above they can fit a good tank(according to the wiki).


Yep. But usually are primary too.

And logi dies fast...if the counter has enough skills and DPS...no matter what ship you are in.

Logi frigates are great, in frigate/dessy roams...which already means you should know which fight to pick and which you should evade.

Personal channel: Crazy Dutch Guy

Help channel: Help chat - Reloaded

Public roams channels: RvB Ganked / Redemption Road / Spectre Fleet / Bombers bar / The Content Club
Cara Forelli
State War Academy
Caldari State
#6 - 2014-03-01 21:52:01 UTC
J'Poll wrote:
1. Yes. IV is BARE minimum...V is highly recommended. Less then IV is out of the question.

...

5. Not really, logi operates totally different then combat people. The only thing you do learn is how fleet movement works, how blood pumping it will be and how you die (as logistics are usually on the very top level of priority ships to get of the field). You will never learn things like tackle, transversal management etc as logi likes to sit back on the end and stay out of harms way as much as possible.


1. Here J'Poll is referring to the logistics skill for tech 2 logistics cruisers. Obviously you don't need the logistics skill to use tech 1 logi cruisers, and they can be quite useful in small gang situations. The reason you need level 5 logi is for cap stability. Oneiros need to be cap stable by themselves. Guardians rely on their chain buddies to keep them cap stable. Level 4 logi will keep you cap stable with two capacitor transfers, level 5 allows you to use just one.

5. I agree with much of this part, however I think flying logi will teach you other things. You get a much better sense of the overall fight, as you have as many of your allies locked as possible. This allows you to see how damage is getting applied and the sway of the overall fight, whereas a DPS pilot is primarily focused on one or two targets. It's different worlds but they are both important skill sets.

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Titan's Lament
Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#7 - 2014-03-02 07:06:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Sabriz Adoudel
Tech 1 logistics cruisers are excellent. Logistics frigates are pretty poor.

The Exequeror is the ship you want to train into - it works well as the sole logistics ship in a small gang and will add a LOT of punch to a cruiser fleet. Be aware that it will be called primary by any competent opposition, but better that your enemies are shooting up your 15m ISK Exequeror than they shoot your buddy's 270m Ishtar fit.


If you want to see the damage a tech 1 logi cruiser can cause, look up Psychotic Monk's blog, www.belligerentundesirables.com - he's probably done over a hundred billion ISK in damage flying 'solo' with one T1 logi alt.

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Yarda Black
The Black Redemption
#8 - 2014-03-02 10:01:36 UTC
Like J'Poll said; the one thing you will really learn is fleetmovement

As a logi (more so if you're anchor) you need to be as far away from hostiles as possible, while staying in reprange. Since cruisers tend to sigtank or speedtank you'll be moving all the time while keeping both points in mind.

I'd go cruisers 4 and remote rep skills 4

Those 6 combined will get you started and these skills aren't a total waste if you dont like flying logi.
Riel Saigo
Facta.Non.Verba
#9 - 2014-03-03 04:13:02 UTC
If you're interested in logi cruisers, I'd recommend the Scythe. Osprey's are great, but they require a lot of cap skills that newbies probably won't have.

You really have to spend time training up your support skills if you want to fly logi.

I know it's not glamorous to be mucking around in the Engineering section when you could be training new ships and guns and stuff. But seriously - get your frigate and cruiser skills where they need to be and maybe boost one weapon system, and then use one of your free remaps to boost Intelligence and Memory to the max, and devote the time to getting your Engineering, Rigging, Shields, Electronics, Armor, and Navigation skills pimped out.

It's not glamorous, but all your ships will fly better. And your really need capacitor and fitting skills to run logi well.
Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#10 - 2014-03-03 05:50:35 UTC
Riel Saigo wrote:
If you're interested in logi cruisers, I'd recommend the Scythe. Osprey's are great, but they require a lot of cap skills that newbies probably won't have.

You really have to spend time training up your support skills if you want to fly logi.

I know it's not glamorous to be mucking around in the Engineering section when you could be training new ships and guns and stuff. But seriously - get your frigate and cruiser skills where they need to be and maybe boost one weapon system, and then use one of your free remaps to boost Intelligence and Memory to the max, and devote the time to getting your Engineering, Rigging, Shields, Electronics, Armor, and Navigation skills pimped out.

It's not glamorous, but all your ships will fly better. And your really need capacitor and fitting skills to run logi well.



Whilst I agree with training the skills you mentioned early on (although rigging skills can stay low - get the prereqs for the rigs you want to use, then push all skills you've injected to 3, and only go higher when you are sure you need to), you should not waste an irreplaceable remap on those skills.

ONLY remap if you are intending to spend at least 6 months in the next year training skills that match that remap, and you already know which skills those are. (Example - you might remap if you know that your next year will involve you training Logistics 5, Heavy Assault Cruisers 5, Gallente Dreadnought 5, Heavy Interdiction Cruisers 5, and medium and large tech 2 blasters and railguns).

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Riel Saigo
Facta.Non.Verba
#11 - 2014-03-03 06:22:09 UTC
New characters get a couple free remaps, so it's not as big a blow as it would be otherwise.
Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#12 - 2014-03-03 06:31:58 UTC
Riel Saigo wrote:
New characters get a couple free remaps, so it's not as big a blow as it would be otherwise.


Those remaps are still irreplaceable.

Among other things, they add hundreds of millions of ISK to the value of your character should you choose to sell it down the track.

I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com
Riel Saigo
Facta.Non.Verba
#13 - 2014-03-03 07:57:55 UTC
If you're just hoarding a character to sell it, why are you even playing the game?

This is the newbie forum.

Not the jaded bitter-vet forum.
MadMuppet
Critical Mass Inc
#14 - 2014-03-03 20:25:04 UTC
Even if you don't do logi as a regular member in a fleet, if you are in a large corp you may be called upon to run in a logi fleet to repair POS shields as such. It is a good skill set to have if you are going out to null/WH space.

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voetius
Grundrisse
#15 - 2014-03-03 22:21:16 UTC
Logi frigates are still frigates so they will die fast to gangs or fleets that are optimised to kill frigates. That said, they aren't useless. They are used in gokufleet doctrine and I've seen Goonswarm use them effectively supporting a Harpy fleet.

T1 Logi cruisers are better than they have ever been and all the races have their uses. As per Sabriz, the Exeq is pretty good if you are looking for somewhere to start.

Logistics IV is a minimum and V is highly desirable but I've never heard of anyone refused because they had IV not V, maybe in some elite PvP groups but I've not heard of that.

Logi hardwires are crazy cheap for some strange reason (irony intended).

RR Armour BS are out of favour at the moment but you never know when they will come back :)
Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#16 - 2014-03-03 22:37:12 UTC
voetius wrote:
Logi frigates are still frigates so they will die fast to gangs or fleets that are optimised to kill frigates. That said, they aren't useless. They are used in gokufleet doctrine and I've seen Goonswarm use them effectively supporting a Harpy fleet.

T1 Logi cruisers are better than they have ever been and all the races have their uses. As per Sabriz, the Exeq is pretty good if you are looking for somewhere to start.

Logistics IV is a minimum and V is highly desirable but I've never heard of anyone refused because they had IV not V, maybe in some elite PvP groups but I've not heard of that.

Logi hardwires are crazy cheap for some strange reason (irony intended).

RR Armour BS are out of favour at the moment but you never know when they will come back :)



It's worth looking at what the Logistics skill does.

It does nothing at all for the tech 1 logi ships (cruiser or frigate).

The T2 logi ships are designed to use battleship-sized remote repair modules. Battleships have much more capacitor than cruisers, and so the T2 logi ships have massive capacitor problems as they are. The Logistics skill reduces those costs by 15% per level, making your capacitor go ~80% further at level 3, 150% further at level 4, and 300% further at level 5.

Having more capacitor means you can keep repping longer, and also that you can run other defensive modules on your ship, such as a speed tank (MWD or AB, MWD not being viable at all at Logi 4 but it can work at 5), active hardeners, or other good things like that.

Interestingly in PVP, a Logi 3 pilot is still somewhat useful as timely reps are more important than consistent reps. In PVE, Logi 4 is mandatory because the incoming damage is constant and engagements last longer.

My advice, however, is that a tech 1 logi cruiser will OUTPERFORM a tech 2 one in absolute performance (not just performance per ISK) until you have Logistics 4 in most scenarios. So start with the T1 cruiser.


On the flip side, all of the prereqs for Logistics are things you will want to have in general anyway.

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