These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Intergalactic Summit

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Behold the "gift" of the Amarr

Author
Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#81 - 2014-02-28 12:14:46 UTC
Ashlar Vellum wrote:

One more thing Anabella,

making statements like this :
Anabella Rella wrote:
...for the record I wasn't asking anything...

followed by this
Anabella Rella wrote:
I'm still waiting for answers.

would not help you to get any good answers.

And that's why you shouldn't talk with them without violence.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Fredfredbug4
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#82 - 2014-02-28 12:47:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Fredfredbug4
Samira Kernher wrote:


I didn't answer them because I don't care to debate statistics. I only cited them in the first place because I disliked someone making wild, baseless claims and then demanding that I provide evidence when I say he's wrong. But fine.


I thought I was clear my "claims" were purely rhetorical. If you want to be vain and live in a different world just to be contrary then fine.

Samira Kernher wrote:


Slaves are not included in the standard total population census. It roughly doubles when you include slaves.

I do not know if the 98% includes slaves or not. Probably not, as the total population refers to free citizens.

As for how they are counted, their owners provide regular genealogical slave records to the Ministry of Internal

...the Minmatar Rebellion was an exception. A larger than average exception, admittedly...


Emphasis mine.

I think I made my point.

Watch_ Fred Fred Frederation_ and stop [u]cryptozoologist[/u]! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it!

Saya Ishikari
Ishukone-Raata Technological Research Institute
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#83 - 2014-03-01 00:15:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Saya Ishikari
Samira Kernher wrote:
Saya Ishikari wrote:
As a side note, Lieutenant Kehrner, I noticed you've completely avoided the questions posed. Refusal to confront legitimate concerns is rather telling, in regards to the data in question. Is there anyone else who can address my previous queries? At this point, I'm simply looking for the answers for their own sake, rather than for any rebuttal or counterargument.


I didn't answer them because I don't care to debate statistics. I only cited them in the first place because I disliked someone making wild, baseless claims and then demanding that I provide evidence when I say he's wrong. But fine.

Saya Ishikari wrote:
There are three questions, which cover potentially argument breaking flaws, that I can't help but feel need to be addressed...
Comparing percentages, ethnic Minmatar comprise fully fifteen percent of the Empires population, and while two hundred billion recognuzed as free may sound like a lot, it comprises only one percent of the overall population. As slaves, the fourteen percent are considered property, are they not? As such, are they counted as an active facet of the Empires population when the ninety eight percent adherence rate to the Faith is presented?

Further, of those counted, if counted at all, are those who adhere under duress and force counted the same as willing participants? And finally, how are they counted? Are they accounted for individually? Or does their Holder answer for them in this case?

Any of these details has the potential to seriously skew the best-case-scenario numbers presented by the MIO, so I imagine my curiosity should come as no surprise. Rikaato.


Slaves are not included in the standard total population census. It roughly doubles when you include slaves.

I do not know if the 98% includes slaves or not. Probably not, as the total population refers to free citizens. That being said, a religious education is the one form of education that is absolutely mandated for all slaves. This includes the same daily prayer services and other forms of active participation in the faith as any free citizen. While a handful might refuse to believe, or practice different faiths in secret, the longer a slave line has lived in the Empire the more likely they'll have internalized the faith and culture. The Ni-Kunni and Udorians are both examples of former slave bloodlines who have almost entirely become devout followers of the faith. The same is happening with the Minmatar, despite setbacks and Matari stubbornness. It's just slower.

As for how they are counted, their owners provide regular genealogical slave records to the Ministry of Internal Order. Former Lord Adash Korta was a recent example of someone who attempted to modify these records to his own benefit--this is why he is a former Lord. All persons in the Empire are kept in the Book of Records, and this is usually backed up by local family ancestry and genealogical histories, so our censuses are rather complete.

Fredfredbug4 wrote:
Again, if what you are saying is true, there would of never been a Minmatar Rebellion.


With the example of the Udorians, the Ni-Kunni, and the trillions of Minmatar that remain in the Empire as faithful servants of God, the Minmatar Rebellion was an exception. A larger than average exception, admittedly, thanks in part to the efforts of the Federation.

Perhaps you don't see the logical fallacy that brought about the need for questioning, Lieutenant, but if you don't care to debate, then I respectfully suggest you don't bring anything to the table that people will question. In any case, rikaato, for the answer.

"At the end of it all, we have only what we've left in our wake to be remembered by." -Kyoko Ishikari, YC 95 - YC 117

Makkal Hanaya
Revenent Defence Corperation
#84 - 2014-03-01 23:03:29 UTC
Anabella Rella wrote:
Fine then. Answer the original issues I raised in my original post. I'm still waiting for just one person to address those. Mintor tried telling me that I don't understand the religion and the purpose of slavery (which I feel I do but, whatever) so please, by all means enlighten me.

If your system is superior why not compete in the marketplace of ideas and let each decide for him/herself, free of coercion?

It's difficult to answer you when you're not asking any questions.

Can you be a bit more specific as to what sort of response would please you?

Render unto Khanid the things which are Khanid's; and unto God the things that are God's.

Katran Luftschreck
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
#85 - 2014-03-03 01:04:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Katran Luftschreck
Anabella Rella wrote:
Total subservience, helplessness, constant fear, lack of personal growth, the inability to think for oneself, to be a permanent child incapable of caring for ones' basic needs, who perpetually look to Shakor's regime for protection, approval and even love, one who exists only to serve the needs of the "Tribal Elders." This, friends, is what the Republic is offering.

The next time you encounter a so-called Minmatar "freedom fighter" why humanity would be better under the Tribes. Ask them about the billions of Amarrians slaughtered in their uprising. Ask the sex slaves. Ask them about the terrorism and the kind of territorial expansion that carved their entire nation from the hide of another. Ask them why those who don't fit the mold are relegated to menial labor and treated as second class citizens, at least until they are executed outright. Ask them about the backstabbing of both CONCORD and the Federation, and the about the invasion and pillaging of Jarizza.

Once you get the answers to these questions, ask yourself if your "bloodline" is pure enough, because if it's not then you're not even considered a part of their vision for humanity.


Fixed that for you.

Fredfredbug4 wrote:
All current member states of the Federation joined without being coerced, forced, or threatened.


So how is Caldari Prime this time of year?

http://youtu.be/t0q2F8NsYQ0

Kyllsa Siikanen
Tuonelan Virta
#86 - 2014-03-03 01:56:52 UTC
You know... I wanted so very badly to add something to this. Anything.

I think, however, enough has been said here, if one knows how to read it, to preclude any condemnation or criticism I might add, of anyone involved. Nope... I'm not a clever enough woman to really know what to say here.

Down with slavery, and This Sort Of Thing, Fear the Tribes, aargh.

I think I'll go fishing now.

“Crying is all right in its own way while it lasts. But you have to stop sooner or later, and then you still have to decide what to do.” 

― C.S. Lewis 

Kucial Kinan
Kinani Consortium
#87 - 2014-03-03 14:08:22 UTC
So, Rella, did this thread satisfy your need to stir up rancor or throw fuel upon your ego? I assume you started this for one of those purposes, because you've certainly seen this discussion enough times before to not have any genuine curiosity about the topic.
Nauplius
Hoi Andrapodistai
#88 - 2014-03-03 15:15:36 UTC
Kyllsa Siikanen wrote:
You know... I wanted so very badly to add something to this. Anything.

I think, however, enough has been said here, if one knows how to read it, to preclude any condemnation or criticism I might add, of anyone involved. Nope... I'm not a clever enough woman to really know what to say here.

Down with slavery, and This Sort Of Thing, Fear the Tribes, aargh.

I think I'll go fishing now.


More Minmatar subhumans should have this attitude. When the fleets of Bestowers come for your people, do not resist; wait calmly in line to receive your collar and your chains and your Vitoc. To ensure a good collar fit, send your neck size ahead of time to the Amarr Civil Service. Amen. Amarr Victor.
Morwen Lagann
Tyrathlion Interstellar
#89 - 2014-03-03 16:08:07 UTC
And as expected, her point sailed so far over your head that a Titan or two could be driven through the space in between with room to spare.

Points for effort, but an utter failure in execution, Nauplius. It's clear from the responses of your fellow Amarr over the last several weeks that your actions neither serve you nor your Empire well, and that you have strayed far from the path intended of you.

You help no-one, not even yourself, with what you do.

Morwen Lagann

CEO, Tyrathlion Interstellar

Coordinator, Arataka Research Consortium

Owner, The Golden Masque

Anabella Rella
Gradient
Electus Matari
#90 - 2014-03-03 16:23:54 UTC
Kucial Kinan wrote:
So, Rella, did this thread satisfy your need to stir up rancor or throw fuel upon your ego? I assume you started this for one of those purposes, because you've certainly seen this discussion enough times before to not have any genuine curiosity about the topic.


And just who the hell are you?

Did your poor attempt at a snarky reply satisfy your need to make yourself seem relevant? What has your pitious comment added to "raise the level" of discussion? Nothing. Surely you've seen my response to these types of posts enough times before to have known the outcome.

When the world is running down, you make the best of what's still around.

Kucial Kinan
Kinani Consortium
#91 - 2014-03-03 16:34:58 UTC
Anabella Rella wrote:

And just who the hell are you?

Did your poor attempt at a snarky reply satisfy your need to make yourself seem relevant? What has your pitious comment added to "raise the level" of discussion? Nothing. Surely you've seen my response to these types of posts enough times before to have known the outcome.


It would not take much to raise the level of discussion at this moment. I was simply curious if you would defend your post as anything but lashing out, but I see that you will not.
Anabella Rella
Gradient
Electus Matari
#92 - 2014-03-03 16:47:11 UTC
As a Pilot, citizen of the Gallentean Federation and a free Matari living in the Republic I don't feel that I need to justify my posting to anyone, least of all to someone I don't know. Perhaps your time would be better spent policing the mad ramblings of your countryman Nauplius as he does a far better job of making your cause look bad than I ever could.

I'll however answer your question. I started this thread in response to something Pilot Kernher stated in another thread. I wanted to challenge the assertion that slavery was the best way to spread the Amarr religion. I also asked (and am still waiting for responses) how humanity would be better off under Amarrian subjugation, why all other cultures should be wiped out in favor of yours, etc. My questions are found in my original post.

Perhaps you'd care to actually address any of those questions or defend the institutional practice of slavery rather than attacking me?

When the world is running down, you make the best of what's still around.

Kucial Kinan
Kinani Consortium
#93 - 2014-03-03 17:02:22 UTC
Anabella Rella wrote:
As a Pilot, citizen of the Gallentean Federation and a free Matari living in the Republic I don't feel that I need to justify my posting to anyone, least of all to someone I don't know. Perhaps your time would be better spent policing the mad ramblings of your countryman Nauplius as he does a far better job of making your cause look bad than I ever could.

I'll however answer your question. I started this thread in response to something Pilot Kernher stated in another thread. I wanted to challenge the assertion that slavery was the best way to spread the Amarr religion. I also asked (and am still waiting for responses) how humanity would be better off under Amarrian subjugation, why all other cultures should be wiped out in favor of yours, etc. My questions are found in my original post.

Perhaps you'd care to actually address any of those questions or defend the institutional practice of slavery rather than attacking me?


I have clearly stated my opinion of Nauplius' statements in other places.

Regarding your supposed questioning, there have been plenty of people that have responded sufficiently to them where a response was called for. Curiously, it seems as though you have let others follow up your own discussion instead of continuing it yourself. This is fairly standard for those who merely wish to harangue instead of discuss.

In addition, it is quite a stretch to interpret my words as an attack.
Anabella Rella
Gradient
Electus Matari
#94 - 2014-03-05 15:26:36 UTC
Ladies and gentlemen I here present the ultimate "gift" from one of the most pious and zealous of the imperials.

I'm sure his fellows will rush to state that Nauplius is a heretic, en extremist, that his views do not represent those of the average faithful. I counter that these excuses matter not to the million innocents he butchered. They remain just as dead.

It was the culture of the "reclaiming", omnipresent religion and the constant reinforcement of racial supremacy that drove Nauplius mad. Unless that culture changes there will be more like him.

When the world is running down, you make the best of what's still around.

Samira Kernher
Cail Avetatu
#95 - 2014-03-05 16:16:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Samira Kernher
Except Nauplius is a heretic. His actions, just like the similar atrocity committed by J4LP after the Battle of Arzad, are not authorized by the Empire. This has been confirmed through inquiries made to Grand Inquisitor Ohrud Omel of the Ministry of Internal Order.

If you would consider Nauplius' example applied to the Empire, then I'm sure you consider the treaty violations at Yulai and Colelie, the murderers of Abel Jarek, the Matari prison camps, Havohej and Du'uma Fiisi Integrated Astrometrics, and the Murientor Tribe to all be acceptable representations of the Republic, too.
Pontianak Sythaeryn
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#96 - 2014-03-05 16:25:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Pontianak Sythaeryn
Samira Kernher wrote:
Except Nauplius is a heretic. His actions, just like the similar atrocity committed by J4LP after the Battle of Arzad, are not authorized by the Empire. This has been confirmed through inquiries made to Grand Inquisitor Ohrud Omel of the Ministry of Internal Order.


So... how many people does a single person have to murder in your Empire without "authorization" before you all... gee I dunno... DO SOMETHING ABOUT HIM!?

Just a question.
Samira Kernher
Cail Avetatu
#97 - 2014-03-05 16:32:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Samira Kernher
How much are you doing? It's easy to accuse others of doing nothing while sitting on your hands yourself.

Just because something is not announced in big bold letters on the IGS does not mean it is not happening. The IGS is not the end-all-be-all of the universe.
Anabella Rella
Gradient
Electus Matari
#98 - 2014-03-05 16:33:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Anabella Rella
How predictable of you Kernher. You're attempting to equate the noble battle to save the Starkmanir and Nefantar, who were going to be murdered by your then de-facto ruler Karsoth, with the wanton killing for self-aggrandizement of Nauplius.

Have you been so brainwashed by your masters that you can no longer think for yourself or, do you just reflexively parrot the words and ideologies of your masters? I can't believe that even a shill such as you would attempt to justify the acts of Nauplius in this way and equate his heinous deed, designed only to garner attention and make himself appear "evil", with the rescue of two lost Minmatar Tribes.

Colelie has been discussed ad nausium. It was an illegal and stupid political and military decision, not a genocide. Abel Jarek was a single man who knowingly (and provocatively) put himself in harm's way. I have no comment on the acts of Havohej or Murientor Tribe as I'm unfamiliar with what they are alleged to have done.

When the world is running down, you make the best of what's still around.

Noden Vorpalstar
The Knights of Polaris
#99 - 2014-03-05 16:38:20 UTC
Anabella Rella wrote:
Ladies and gentlemen I here present the ultimate "gift" from one of the most pious and zealous of the imperials.

I'm sure his fellows will rush to state that Nauplius is a heretic, en extremist, that his views do not represent those of the average faithful. I counter that these excuses matter not to the million innocents he butchered. They remain just as dead.

It was the culture of the "reclaiming", omnipresent religion and the constant reinforcement of racial supremacy that drove Nauplius mad. Unless that culture changes there will be more like him.




Pontianak Sythaeryn wrote:
Samira Kernher wrote:
Except Nauplius is a heretic. His actions, just like the similar atrocity committed by J4LP after the Battle of Arzad, are not authorized by the Empire. This has been confirmed through inquiries made to Grand Inquisitor Ohrud Omel of the Ministry of Internal Order.


So... how many people does a single person have to murder in your Empire without "authorization" before you all... gee I dunno... DO SOMETHING ABOUT HIM!?

Just a question.


It appears to me that The Empire silently condones the actions of Nauplius and other Amarrian's like him.
Or perhaps those in power are too afraid to look their own evil square in the face, while coming to grips with this atrocity.

The silence of The Empire is deafening, yet it speaks volumes.

Public Channel:  Polaris-Public Roleplaying Channel:  Gallente Lounge

Samira Kernher
Cail Avetatu
#100 - 2014-03-05 16:43:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Samira Kernher
Anabella Rella wrote:
How predictable of you Kernher. You're attempting to equate the noble battle to save the Starkmanir and Nefantar, who were going to be murdered by your then de-facto ruler Karsoth, with the wanton killing for self-aggrandizement of Nauplius.

Have you been so brainwashed by your masters that you can no longer think for yourself or, do you just reflexively parrot the words and ideologies of your masters? I can't believe that even a shill such as you would attempt to justify the acts of Nauplius in this way and equate his heinous deed, designed only to garner attention and make himself appear "evil", with the rescue of two lost Minmatar Tribes.

Colelie has been discussed ad nausium. It was an illegal and stupid political and military decision, not a genocide. Abel Jarek was a single man who knowingly (and provocatively) put himself in harm's way. I have no comment on the acts of Havohej or Murientor Tribe as I'm unfamiliar with what they are alleged to have done.


Havohej and his group murdered over 300,000 former Minmatar slaves because they would not give up their faith. He is bragging about it over in Ms. Riordan's thread.

The example of Abel Jarek was just one example, he is not the only casualty of anti-Amarrian violence in Republic space, as the above example shows. As for the Murientor Tribe, your own corporation denounced their efforts to motivate violence and hate against faithful Minmatar in the Republic--namely the new Nefantar tribal chief.

None of that is relevant, though, because I was not equating the severity of anything. I made one very simple point: If you are going to consider a criminal extremist to be representative of one nation, then you must also take ownership of the criminal extremists of your own nation.