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Talwar fleet counters

Author
Gh0stBust3rs
Destruction and Pacification Services
#21 - 2014-02-25 05:16:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Gh0stBust3rs
Bad Messenger wrote:
Gh0stBust3rs wrote:
Long story short CFC had great sucess murdering Talwar fleets with Harpy Fleets.

Engaging a talwar fleet with something cruiser sized is generally going to be suicide. (a 70 man talwar fleet can 2 shot a caracal 20k ehp @ 50km.)


Basically though any instant dps doctrine can slaughter them. Tanks are meh.

T2 Assualt ships are the go to though due to resists sig tanking and the decent buffer you can get on one. Downside being losing 2-3 assault ships generally means you lose the isk battle.


who flies 20k ehp caracals?


The CFC did for a while. effective is more like 50k but we all know how that actually plays out.

https://zkillboard.com/detail/31199443/
March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#22 - 2014-02-25 07:52:01 UTC  |  Edited by: March rabbit
edited: they beat me to it Sad

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"

Luwc
Empire Assault Corp
Dead Terrorists
#23 - 2014-02-25 13:15:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Luwc
munkythegimp Nakrar wrote:
So ive been wondering if your numbers match the enemy's what is the best way to counter a light missile talwar fit ? ive read some of the other forums which suggest rail fit ships but I was wondering what else would be ideal for taking them out. thanks a lot


Omens, Mallers , Rail fit Harpies and Cormorants. Algoses usualy do the deal.

Zealots / Legions / Munnins

Talwarfleet is a pretty bad doctrine.

http://hugelolcdn.com/i/267520.gif

praying mantis01
Did he say Jump
Dock Workers
#24 - 2014-02-25 21:32:18 UTC
Luwc wrote:
munkythegimp Nakrar wrote:
So ive been wondering if your numbers match the enemy's what is the best way to counter a light missile talwar fit ? ive read some of the other forums which suggest rail fit ships but I was wondering what else would be ideal for taking them out. thanks a lot


Omens, Mallers , Rail fit Harpies and Cormorants. Algoses usualy do the deal.

Zealots / Legions / Munnins

Talwarfleet is a pretty bad doctrine.


Omens mallers algoses firstly are horrible counters lol you would need to go beam fit on omens and mallers thus reducing tank thus a talwar fleet wiping the floor with them. Algos is not a long range ship.

Zealots may do it however munnins would get insta popped by a talwar fleet if shield fit and an armor fit would find it difficult to fit arties so you conclusion that talwars are a bad doctrine means you haven't seen them being done right or have no clue what you are talking about whatsoever.

Comorants would still lose to a same size talwar fleet imo and rail harpies cost 4x as much and would most likely lose the isk war it a flat out brawl.
Maximus Decimal
Doomheim
#25 - 2014-02-27 14:30:43 UTC
In conclusion. Bend the knee to the mighty meta 0 talwar.
Tetsuo Tsukaya
Perkone
Caldari State
#26 - 2014-02-28 02:51:58 UTC
Flyinghotpocket wrote:
use vengeances and retributions.


Pretty much this. I don't know what fit AVNG used but just screwing around in EFT, a buffer retribution with two True Sansha Explo Platings, 200mm Steel Plates II and two T1 trimark rigs has 49K EHP against explosive, and will be taking way less damage anyway due to sig radius bonus while MWDing.
Stalking Mantis
Amarrian Vengeance
Team Amarrica
#27 - 2014-02-28 02:59:15 UTC
Flyinghotpocket wrote:
use vengeances and retributions. purely. and you will defeat any talwar fleet outnumbered

X Gallentius wrote:
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
I've heard that Amarrian Vengeance used retributions to great effect.

Most likely because of the Amarr resists against Explosive. If the WTs had had another ammo type (thermal) it may have been a different story.



our enemys soon found out we all had 2 a-type explo fitted assault ships. and quickly docked in rens and got thermal missiles as your prophisized however we just refit to omni tank and still did just fine. no losses


Why did you give that secret away? BAH

Well we did put on a show of some tight Amarr Assualt frigate formation flying for the Amarr during the bunker bust of Bosboger and the inevitable talwar fleet that showed up to counter it.

Amarr Liason Officer Extraordinare -->Check Out Amarrian Vengeance/Amarr FW History from 2011 to 2014 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=352629&find=unread

Stalking Mantis
Amarrian Vengeance
Team Amarrica
#28 - 2014-02-28 03:07:10 UTC
Oh yah and some hilarious Praying Mantis quotes about how we are going to need more than three frigates to chase of his talwar blob.

Amarr Liason Officer Extraordinare -->Check Out Amarrian Vengeance/Amarr FW History from 2011 to 2014 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=352629&find=unread

Flyinghotpocket
Amarrian Vengeance
Team Amarrica
#29 - 2014-02-28 03:37:18 UTC
Tetsuo Tsukaya wrote:
Flyinghotpocket wrote:
use vengeances and retributions.


Pretty much this. I don't know what fit AVNG used but just screwing around in EFT, a buffer retribution with two True Sansha Explo Platings, 200mm Steel Plates II and two T1 trimark rigs has 49K EHP against explosive, and will be taking way less damage anyway due to sig radius bonus while MWDing.

:) hey buddy since we dont use this doctrine anymore. i thought id give you all a screen shot of what we did use. mostly because our enemys would only use nova missiles. so we developed this
http://i.imgur.com/UDRLqdu.jpg

after they discovered we had completely res'ed up explosive, they quickly got some thermal missiles. and we had to quickly step up again to eft, and come up with a solid setup.

suffice to say its omni tanked, and its only retributions and vengeances now. will probably release this information sometime soon, as we like people to come up with excellent counter to us.

Amarr Militia Representative - A jar of nitro

Tetsuo Tsukaya
Perkone
Caldari State
#30 - 2014-02-28 03:46:52 UTC
lol that's amazing, thank you for sharing that
Valleria Darkmoon
No Salvation
Top Belt for Fun
#31 - 2014-03-01 05:25:25 UTC
Flyinghotpocket wrote:
Tetsuo Tsukaya wrote:
Flyinghotpocket wrote:
use vengeances and retributions.


Pretty much this. I don't know what fit AVNG used but just screwing around in EFT, a buffer retribution with two True Sansha Explo Platings, 200mm Steel Plates II and two T1 trimark rigs has 49K EHP against explosive, and will be taking way less damage anyway due to sig radius bonus while MWDing.

:) hey buddy since we dont use this doctrine anymore. i thought id give you all a screen shot of what we did use. mostly because our enemys would only use nova missiles. so we developed this
http://i.imgur.com/UDRLqdu.jpg

after they discovered we had completely res'ed up explosive, they quickly got some thermal missiles. and we had to quickly step up again to eft, and come up with a solid setup.

suffice to say its omni tanked, and its only retributions and vengeances now. will probably release this information sometime soon, as we like people to come up with excellent counter to us.


If the old setup was working then you should be able to count on it still working as long as you lose ~20% EHP or less when omni tanked as forcing the Talwars to fire anything other than Novas will cut their alpha by about 20%. If you aim to lose 20% or less EHP when tanking straight Thermal damage (assuming that the new fit doesn't make EM the lowest resist), I would say it's pretty much a lock that it would still work just fine.

Also that sig...looks like bonuses plus maybe Halos?

Reality has an almost infinite capacity to resist oversimplification.

Flyinghotpocket
Amarrian Vengeance
Team Amarrica
#32 - 2014-03-01 15:50:53 UTC
Valleria Darkmoon wrote:
Flyinghotpocket wrote:
Tetsuo Tsukaya wrote:
Flyinghotpocket wrote:
use vengeances and retributions.


Pretty much this. I don't know what fit AVNG used but just screwing around in EFT, a buffer retribution with two True Sansha Explo Platings, 200mm Steel Plates II and two T1 trimark rigs has 49K EHP against explosive, and will be taking way less damage anyway due to sig radius bonus while MWDing.

:) hey buddy since we dont use this doctrine anymore. i thought id give you all a screen shot of what we did use. mostly because our enemys would only use nova missiles. so we developed this
http://i.imgur.com/UDRLqdu.jpg

after they discovered we had completely res'ed up explosive, they quickly got some thermal missiles. and we had to quickly step up again to eft, and come up with a solid setup.

suffice to say its omni tanked, and its only retributions and vengeances now. will probably release this information sometime soon, as we like people to come up with excellent counter to us.


If the old setup was working then you should be able to count on it still working as long as you lose ~20% EHP or less when omni tanked as forcing the Talwars to fire anything other than Novas will cut their alpha by about 20%. If you aim to lose 20% or less EHP when tanking straight Thermal damage (assuming that the new fit doesn't make EM the lowest resist), I would say it's pretty much a lock that it would still work just fine.

Also that sig...looks like bonuses plus maybe Halos?


your right it still does work fine. omni tanking works great.

those ships were just boosts m8, if you plug in the halo sets they go down to 18.2 sig for the retribution and 17.7 for the inquisitor.

Amarr Militia Representative - A jar of nitro

Mehashi 'Kho
The Grey Eagles
#33 - 2014-03-01 15:56:47 UTC
Talwars are awful, no idea why people keep pushing a rubbish doctrine. If they jump into you then thrashers have more deeps, if they are at range then corms have better instant damage projection and range.
Machiavelli's Nemesis
Angry Mustellid
Lost Obsession
#34 - 2014-03-01 16:32:21 UTC
Mehashi 'Kho wrote:
Talwars are awful, no idea why people keep pushing a rubbish doctrine. If they jump into you then thrashers have more deeps, if they are at range then corms have better instant damage projection and range.


They are moderately effective and simple to fly for inexperienced pubbies. Also the combined alpha of a large group of them is better for breaking reps than thrashers.

But yeah, i'd rather have a decent group of rail corms on my side.
Zarnak Wulf
Amarrian Vengeance
Team Amarrica
#35 - 2014-03-01 16:34:40 UTC
Mehashi 'Kho wrote:
Talwars are awful, no idea why people keep pushing a rubbish doctrine. If they jump into you then thrashers have more deeps, if they are at range then corms have better instant damage projection and range.



Get a Thrasher. Fit it out with 280mm arty, two T2 Gyro, and a Projectile Collision Rig. Load RF Titanium Sabot. Your alpha will be 1236. With a tracking computer you'll get ~31km optimal and 14km of falloff.

Now put one BCU II and one Warhead Calefaction rig on a Talwar. 1367 Alpha out to 62 km and you can't get under it's 'guns.' The Talwar rules those middle ranges and with it's MWD sig bonus it can run in slightly larger packs that would get any other dessy immediately blapped.

Lastly, the Talwar is faster then the Corax and it's explosive damage is preferable for T2 targets over the Corax's kinetic damage in most cases.
Mehashi 'Kho
The Grey Eagles
#36 - 2014-03-03 06:20:03 UTC
But it doesn't work like that. If the talwars are farting about at 60km then the thrashers just blap tackle and leave.

Then they come back in cormorants and out-range the talwars by 30km with the advantage of instantly applied damage on target switching.

Ever see a bunch of red boxes on you at 60km? Just warp out, you have a few seconds to do so.

Maybe it just plays out differently in the other warzone. *shrugs*
Mike Whiite
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#37 - 2014-03-04 09:46:59 UTC
- E-war Damps or ECM.

- other counter is getting very fast ship, or extremely tanked ship in, warp to there or it's wreck, sacrifice one to destroy there advantage.

- if you want to do it the expensive way get a fleet of cerberusses.

Mikokoel
Know your Role
Pandemic Horde
#38 - 2014-03-04 14:52:02 UTC
One solution is to just kite them, talwars have bad range when they have to burn behind you and are very slow.

If you go like 2.5k, Talwar range is reduced to 45k. So anything that can project DMG up to that range is easy win.
Talos, Oracle, Tornado, Naga, Caracal+Variants, Omen Navy, Cynabal, Artyrupture, Vagabond, Railcormorant, Railharpy, and many more.
Might want to think about how to point them though :)

Mikokoel | Head FC League of Unaligned Master Pilots

Veratrix
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#39 - 2014-03-04 16:25:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Veratrix
Zero clue how people are flying or fitting rail corms that you can die from talwars being able to hit you. A proper rail corm hits out 30km past talwar range with instant applied dps. It's pretty much a direct counter and was used to absurd effectiveness in the Gal/Cal war zone when all test would fly was 30-50 man talwar blobs. We would regularly hold plexs with 9 or 10 of us in rail corms, until they took to literally sacrificing fleets to run down the timer, as we couldn't be on the button while they were in the plex, reshipping quickly to another fleet and coming back to die over and over agian until the timer was run down all the way.
Zarnak Wulf
Amarrian Vengeance
Team Amarrica
#40 - 2014-03-04 16:26:44 UTC
Talwars are so 2013. Real men fly Heretic fleets.
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