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Putin using an old one from the Generic Dictator's Bag of Tricks

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baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#21 - 2014-03-02 06:55:49 UTC
Nerath Naaris wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Russian Parliament has authorized direct military intervention in Ukraine today.
(Yesterday it was only "non-military humanitarian aid"
Putin says it is necessary to "protect ethnic Russians in area".
I believe someone in the late 30's used a very similar reason to invade a few countries.


Except that about two thirds of the crimean population ARE ethnic Russians who seem to prefer closer ties with Motherland.
"National aspirations must be respected; people may now be dominated and governed only by their own consent. Self determination is not a mere phrase; it is an imperative principle of action. . . ."
Who said that? Oh, President Woodrow Wilson!
Who is the agressor and who is the defender in this case? It´s certainly not that simple.


Its seems ethnic russians are not the majority there. Ukranians and a lot of native muslims (who hate russia because of stalin). So it seems most dont want to be in russia.
Earthan
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#22 - 2014-03-02 07:11:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Earthan
Nerath Naaris wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Russian Parliament has authorized direct military intervention in Ukraine today.
(Yesterday it was only "non-military humanitarian aid"
Putin says it is necessary to "protect ethnic Russians in area".
I believe someone in the late 30's used a very similar reason to invade a few countries.


Except that about two thirds of the crimean population ARE ethnic Russians who seem to prefer closer ties with Motherland.
"National aspirations must be respected; people may now be dominated and governed only by their own consent. Self determination is not a mere phrase; it is an imperative principle of action. . . ."
Who said that? Oh, President Woodrow Wilson!
Who is the agressor and who is the defender in this case? It´s certainly not that simple.

Please. It is that simple.

First the timing:
Suddenly at such a moment Putin reminds himself of ethnicty in Crimea and takes action.Right.

IF Putin was really only worried about peoples walfare there and ethincty there are number of peacful ways to go about it:

What he is doing is using the turmoil to carve another piece of land for hikmself , a juicy one this time , with black sea access.Prolly also furious taht Ukraine , wiht upcoming free elections , might get free out of Russia's shpere of influence.
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#23 - 2014-03-02 08:23:19 UTC
Earthan wrote:
Nerath Naaris wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Russian Parliament has authorized direct military intervention in Ukraine today.
(Yesterday it was only "non-military humanitarian aid"
Putin says it is necessary to "protect ethnic Russians in area".
I believe someone in the late 30's used a very similar reason to invade a few countries.


Except that about two thirds of the crimean population ARE ethnic Russians who seem to prefer closer ties with Motherland.
"National aspirations must be respected; people may now be dominated and governed only by their own consent. Self determination is not a mere phrase; it is an imperative principle of action. . . ."
Who said that? Oh, President Woodrow Wilson!
Who is the agressor and who is the defender in this case? It´s certainly not that simple.

Please. It is that simple.

First the timing:
Suddenly at such a moment Putin reminds himself of ethnicty in Crimea and takes action.Right.

IF Putin was really only worried about peoples walfare there and ethincty there are number of peacful ways to go about it:

What he is doing is using the turmoil to carve another piece of land for hikmself , a juicy one this time , with black sea access.Prolly also furious taht Ukraine , wiht upcoming free elections , might get free out of Russia's shpere of influence.


Yup.

Outside of Sevastopol, the only other western warm water port for Russia is Syria's Tartus, which cannot service its large ships.

Ukraine was a big chunk of Russia, prior to the breakup. Given its economic woes (largely created by the kleptocracy of its former gov't), have the eastern side of Ukraine (rather, some percentage of the population) agitating for rejoining Russia.
So it is in Russia's strategic interests to annex the Crimea, at the very least. Will they take the whole country is the larger question.

And as stated, NATO will not get involved in a war with a country that can actually shoot back. It also makes the Euro's decision about this invasion a lot easier when one looks at how much of Russian oil heats Europe and fires their economy.
Angelique Duchemin
Team Evil
#24 - 2014-03-02 10:29:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Angelique Duchemin
Since the US has a Naval base at Lake Erie then I'm going to assume that the Canadian nuclear submarines are located there.

The very sun of heaven seemed distorted when viewed through the polarising miasma welling out from this sea-soaked perversion, and twisted menace and suspense lurked leeringly in those crazily elusive angles of carven rock where a second glance shewed concavity after the first shewed convexity.

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#25 - 2014-03-02 12:05:45 UTC
Ukraine is mobilising...
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#26 - 2014-03-02 14:24:47 UTC
"No Country for Old Dictator Men" Big smile

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882

Wrayeth
Inexorable Retribution
#27 - 2014-03-02 16:24:42 UTC
Well, since this, strangely, isn't getting locked, I'm going to throw in my own two cents.

To me, this looks like it's simply a grab for land and power. There are some potentially legitimate concerns about protecting the people of Crimea, but if that was Putin's true reason he would've gone about things differently, probably seeking multilateral support for the mission. Instead, Mr. Ex-KGB has basically invaded a sovereign country in an effort to secure another chunk of the former U.S.S.R.

The other part to this is that NATO nations are signatories of a treaty to ensure the Ukraine's security. Putin knows this, but doesn't think that NATO has the testicular fortitude to follow its treaty obligations and stand up to his forces. He probably figures that the U.S. would normally act even so, but after ten years of conflict in the Middle East, Americans are tired of the cost of war, both in human lives and dollars. As such, he probably feels that all that will happen is sternly-worded warnings and little else. I think he's so confident of this that he doesn't expect to see actual troops on the ground.

Personally, what I'd like to see is a multinational force moved in--only with the Ukranian government's permission!--to the areas of Ukraine that Russia has not yet occupied, but no direct assault on Russian forces unless they attempt to seize more of the country. The presence of troops that he doesn't expect to see would hopefully cause him to reconsider his plans and bring him to the negotiating table so that a peaceful solution could be worked out. And, if he's prepared to try to take the rest of Ukraine despite the presence of Western troops, then he'll have proven that the Russian government has become nothing more than avaricious criminals and despots.
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#28 - 2014-03-02 16:50:46 UTC
Wrayeth wrote:
And, if he's prepared to try to take the rest of Ukraine despite the presence of Western troops, then he'll have proven that the Russian government has become nothing more than avaricious criminals and despots.


True indeed. It's just.....this has been well known since 1917.

Even if you get rid of the terrible politicians, the Russian Mafia will just install whomever they want over time. There really is no "winning" of any situation over there.

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882

Sturmwolke
#29 - 2014-03-02 20:25:20 UTC
stoicfaux wrote:
If global warming/climate change dramatically rearranges farmland, then Canada will be assimilated in the US.

Don't you mean the world? Blink ... oh wait, they need to kill off or subjugate 1 bil Chinese before that happens P
BLACK-STAR
#30 - 2014-03-02 21:39:36 UTC
Wrayeth wrote:
Ukraine wants no sort of international forces invading/occupying them, just world recognition and respect. If Russia had good faith in relief effort this shouldn't be militarized as it is.


XNCReman wrote:
Canada are peacekeepers and can only argue over icebergs. nuking ice is doing it wrong.
Rhesos
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#31 - 2014-03-02 22:54:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Rhesos
Stay away from Russian borders!
We won't accept regime change at our borders. We will fight back.
Enough is enough!
Robby Altair
#32 - 2014-03-03 00:11:20 UTC
"Wapiganapo tembo nyasi huumia"

Ref:
African Proverb of the Month

Room 3420 Boelter Hall UCLA

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#33 - 2014-03-03 05:45:08 UTC
I bet Ukraine regrets getting rid of its mobile nukes now.

Incidently, the nation just happens to own the best urainium mines in the world.
Khergit Deserters
Crom's Angels
#34 - 2014-03-03 16:33:01 UTC
Same exact excuse that was used when Russia invaded Georgia in 2008. In that one, they passed out some Russian Federation passports to ethnic Russians first. Putin is incredible-- he's like a super Bond villain.
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#35 - 2014-03-03 22:21:00 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
I bet Ukraine regrets getting rid of its mobile nukes now.

Incidently, the nation just happens to own the best urainium mines in the world.



Yup, like I said, there are about 6 reasons that North Korea has not been invaded.
ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#36 - 2014-03-04 00:33:11 UTC
Although I fully understand the emotions involved in living in such dangerous times, talking politics and its implications is not allowed.
Therefore, thread locked.

OOPE Rules:
3. Discussions about politics and religion not allowed, there are other websites with forums for these topics.

ISD Ezwal Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

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