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(Dis)honorable dueling - A call for a revamp of a broken system

Author
Gori Thane
Last Rites.
#1 - 2014-02-28 21:25:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Gori Thane
When Retribution 1.1 was released, players were finally given an official method of hi-sec dueling in lieu of of can flipping. The banner given to dueling by CCP was "A proper 1 on 1 for the modern pilot." The idea of dueling is not to eliminate risk of losing your ship or even your pod, but to create an avenue for players to be able to choose their engagements and to know what they kind of fight they are getting into, which would be a nice alternative to engagements in low or null sec space where you may be tricked into thinking you have a fair engagement only to have a fleet warp in on you.

******My example was based on a bug, not the norm. I apologize for that misunderstanding******
Problem #1: Contrary to the advertised premise of an "honorable duel" between two (or more if multiple simultaneous duels are accepted) pilots, players may bring in assistance via logistical support and thus destroying any chance of a fair fight and they can use logistical support both without agreement from the other dueling pilot(s) OR retaliation! Any retaliation against any ships providing logistical support would actually result in CONCORD intervention!

An example of how current mechanics allow for completely unfair combat: I undock in a frigate from Jita and have a pilot (also in a frigate) issue me a duel challenge. I unwisely accept to the supposed terms of a "frig 1v1". The enemy pilot then immediately has a nearby logi transport shields with a medium or large remote shield booster. Obviously my frigate would never be able to brake a tank supported by logi, so I never stood a chance. I never got a window pop up telling me "Eveplayer002" would like to join the duel and asking me to accept or decline. I never even got the chance to fire upon the logi when he gave reps. CONCORD never intervened. I just died.


Problem #2: A far more common issue with the current dueling system's premise of a "fair fight" come from the ability of pilots to dock after accepting a duel. This leads to two common abuses. The first is that pilots will issue a duel and once their target accepts, they immediately dock and then quickly undock in a completely different (and often much larger and/or more expensive) ship and then proceed to quickly destroy the unsuspecting pilot who thought he or she as agreeing to a duel with so-called even odds. The second, less grievous way pilots abuse the ability to dock with an active duel is that they will agree to a duel and engage, but once the fight tips against their favor, they will wait out the combat timer and then simply dock.

My proposed solution for problem 1 is to simply make any logistical support illegal unless a duel request has been issued by the logistical pilot and accepted by the enemy pilot. This would allow the opposing pilot to know what he's getting into and also for him or her to retaliate! I think is solution is very intuitive and I"m at a loss as to why this isn't the way dueling was from the start. A second option would be to allow logistical support without permission from the opposing pilot(s), but then to allow the opposing pilot(s) to retaliate against the ship providing logistical support as soon as aid is given to an opposing pilot in a duel. I think this second option is by far less preferable, but I wanted to give more than one solution.

My proposed solution to problem 2 would be to start a combat timer as soon as a duel is accepted, making it impossible for a dishonorable duelist to dock and return with a larger ship. A second solution would be to immediately end the duel when one or more pilots dock. Again I like the first option better. As far as stopping pilots from waiting out the combat timer and docking when the tide turns against them...I"m not so sure this needs to be fixed. Waiting out the combat timer does give the other pilot ample time to destroy you before you dock.

Please let me know what you think and I welcome any and all additional ideas for solutions for making the honorable dueling system a little more honorable!

-Gori Thane
Kimmi Chan
Tastes Like Purple
#2 - 2014-02-28 21:26:22 UTC
Man you really need a TL;DR.

I'm going to go back and read but getting ambushed by a wall of text like that is troubling.

"Grr Kimmi  Nerf Chans!" ~Jenn aSide

www.eve-radio.com  Join Eve Radio channel in game!

Alduin666 Shikkoken
Doomheim
#3 - 2014-02-28 21:28:16 UTC
I call for a revamp of the tutorial system. So many new people come in the forums thinking they have a bright idea yet don't even go about making this idea heard in the correct manner.

TL;DR go post in Features and Ideas

Honor is a fools prize. [I]Glory is of no use to the dead.[/I]

Be a man! Post with your main! ~Vas'Avi Community Manager

Asarles
Jaded Gamers
#4 - 2014-02-28 21:31:29 UTC
Does logi no longer acquire a suspect flag?
Batelle
Filthy Peasants
#5 - 2014-02-28 21:32:39 UTC
Gori Thane wrote:
When Retribution 1.1 was released, players were finally given an official method of hi-sec dueling in lieu of of can flipping. The banner given to dueling by CCP was "A proper 1 on 1 for the modern pilot." The idea of dueling is not to eliminate risk of losing your ship or even your pod, but to create an avenue for players to be able to choose their engagements and to know what they kind of fight they are getting into, which would be a nice alternative to engagements in low or null sec space where you may be tricked into thinking you have a fair engagement only to have a fleet warp in on you.


WRONG.

The duel system was created so people could get aggression to shoot each other without concord interference, and without making themselves global suspects.

It was never intended to prevent people from dishonoring 1v1s, whatever that banner may have said.

Everything is working as intended, there is no problem here.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.

Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#6 - 2014-02-28 21:32:49 UTC
Retaliation against the Logi won't provoke Concord. If you Rep someone who's in a limited engagement, and the other person can't engage you, you go suspect. (There's a bug to do with this, which might be being exploited. I'm not going to describe it here.)

As for 2, duel off station.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter

Cannibal Kane
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#7 - 2014-02-28 21:33:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Cannibal Kane
I don't understand the problems?

1. Logi goes suspect. The entire universe can shoot at them. What is the issue?
2. He can dock because he has no aggression timer. You can to... Imagine that.

No such thing as a fair fight. If it is somebody did something wrong.

"Kane is the End Boss of Highsec." -Psychotic Monk

Kimmi Chan
Tastes Like Purple
#8 - 2014-02-28 21:34:58 UTC
Alduin666 Shikkoken wrote:
I call for a revamp of the tutorial system. So many new people come in the forums thinking they have a bright idea yet don't even go about making this idea heard in the correct manner.

TL;DR go post in Features and Ideas


I agree with the Esteemed Master Shikkoken. This needs to be posted over in F&I.

I think your ideas have quite a bit of merit. I think Logistics and OGB have a place in PvP but I find myself agreeing with you that if you are going to dual 1v1, it needs to actually be 1v1.

Further, jacking around with the docking/undocking thing is just dumb and amounts to bait and switch which, while within the rules and spirit of the game, is still not cool.

You should request ISD to move your thread to the right place. You won't get as much visibility but you'll get the right (if there is such a thing) visibility.

"Grr Kimmi  Nerf Chans!" ~Jenn aSide

www.eve-radio.com  Join Eve Radio channel in game!

Hadrian Blackstone
Yamato Holdings
#9 - 2014-02-28 21:37:56 UTC
CCP wants stuff like this to happen. They knew what they were doing. It's good for business.
Unsuccessful At Everything
The Troll Bridge
#10 - 2014-02-28 21:53:17 UTC
No one ever said that a duel in Eve Online was a 1v1.




Highsec trade hub duel problems.

Also, LOL @ fair fights in Eve.

Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings?

Batelle
Filthy Peasants
#11 - 2014-02-28 21:59:21 UTC
Cannibal Kane wrote:
I don't understand the problems?

1. Logi goes suspect. The entire universe can shoot at them. What is the issue?
2. He can dock because he has no aggression timer. You can to... Imagine that.

No such thing as a fair fight. If it is somebody did something wrong.


If you rep someone with a weapons timer you cannot dock, because you inherit the weapons timer.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.

KnowUsByTheDead
Sunlight...Through The Blight.
#12 - 2014-02-28 22:00:40 UTC
THE OP BRINGS MUCH DISHONORBRU TO HIS CLAN.

SEPPUKU EMMINENT.

SUCH AMAZE.


Roll

Once you realize what a joke everything is, being the comedian is the only thing that makes sense.

BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#13 - 2014-02-28 22:02:53 UTC
Quote:
Contrary to the advertised premise of an "honorable duel" between two (or more if multiple simultaneous duels are accepted) pilots, players may bring in assistance via logistical support and thus destroying any chance of a fair fight and they can use logistical support both without agreement from the other dueling pilot(s) OR retaliation! Any retaliation against any ships providing logistical support would actually result in CONCORD intervention!


Duels can be honorable. Duel people you know. Don't expect some random dude that is sending duel invites to not use every means at his disposal to destroy you. I honor 1v1 duels all the time, but I use it for teaching purposes, not to try and have a "fair fight" in everyone versus everyone.

Founder of Violet Squadron, a small gang NPSI community! Mail me for more information.

BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie's Space Mediation Service!

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#14 - 2014-02-28 22:03:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Gori Thane wrote:
Problem #1: Contrary to the advertised premise of an "honorable duel" between two (or more if multiple simultaneous duels are accepted) pilots, players may bring in assistance
This is not contrary to how it was advertised. In fact, the mechanics that let this happen was probably the bigger contribution that the patch provided.

Quote:
Any retaliation against any ships providing logistical support would actually result in CONCORD intervention!
No. Any retaliation against a ship providing logistical support will result in you starting a limited engagement with the suspect in question. You have until his weapon timer ends to kill him.

Quote:
Problem #2: A far more common issue with the current dueling system's premise of a "fair fight" come from the ability of pilots to dock after accepting a duel.
Setting aside for a moment that the premise isn't really “fair fights”, the ability to refit is something you have to calculate with when you accept the duel. If they dock up, you've won. Good on you. Take the time to deaggress and dock up too. Neither is any kind of abuse.

Your proposals address non-issues. It also belongs in F&I.
Oh, and if you're going to complain about and propose alterations to mechanics, at least learn how they work first.
Cannibal Kane
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#15 - 2014-02-28 22:16:18 UTC
Batelle wrote:
Cannibal Kane wrote:
I don't understand the problems?

1. Logi goes suspect. The entire universe can shoot at them. What is the issue?
2. He can dock because he has no aggression timer. You can to... Imagine that.

No such thing as a fair fight. If it is somebody did something wrong.


If you rep someone with a weapons timer you cannot dock, because you inherit the weapons timer.


Why thank you Cpt Obvious.

However he was talking about people accepting a duel then docking immediately after the one person engages and undocks in something bigger.

"Kane is the End Boss of Highsec." -Psychotic Monk

Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#16 - 2014-02-28 22:19:50 UTC
Quote:
Please let me know what you think


I think the future of this thread is in F&I.

I also think that you failing to understand the mechanic correctly, then it's being used to slap you in face, is working as intended.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Varius Xeral
Doomheim
#17 - 2014-02-28 22:26:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Varius Xeral
KnowUsByTheDead wrote:
THE OP BRINGS MUCH DISHONORBRU TO HIS CLAN.

SEPPUKU EMMINENT.

SUCH AMAZE.


Roll


Sums up my feelings.

WHO WOULD PLAY A GAME WHERE DUELS HAVE NO HONOUR?!

NO HONOUR!

Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal

Forum Mcforum
State War Academy
Caldari State
#18 - 2014-02-28 22:32:04 UTC
i dont know why, but i thought then dueling was implemented, that you and the other person were moved to jove space like the alliance stuff

no idea where i heard this tho
KnowUsByTheDead
Sunlight...Through The Blight.
#19 - 2014-02-28 22:34:46 UTC
Forum Mcforum wrote:
i dont know why, but i thought then dueling was implemented, that you and the other person were moved to jove space like the alliance stuff

no idea where i heard this tho


Jove Space is a lie.

It is merely a place where gypsy's go to sell blow that has been stepped on too many times.

Trust me.

Blink

Once you realize what a joke everything is, being the comedian is the only thing that makes sense.

Kimmi Chan
Tastes Like Purple
#20 - 2014-02-28 22:44:05 UTC
KnowUsByTheDead wrote:
Forum Mcforum wrote:
i dont know why, but i thought then dueling was implemented, that you and the other person were moved to jove space like the alliance stuff

no idea where i heard this tho


Jove Space is a lie.

It is merely a place where gypsy's go to sell blow that has been stepped on too many times.

Trust me.

Blink


There is no Jove space.

There are no Jovians.

"Grr Kimmi  Nerf Chans!" ~Jenn aSide

www.eve-radio.com  Join Eve Radio channel in game!

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