Player Features and Ideas Discussion

But it's fine for you to say that the rest of EVE is doing it wrong and make assumptions about our motives, right?

While reading up on this issue I'm gravitating towards the idea that the fact that the problem with teleportation isn't so much the fact that it is so powerful, but the fact that it lacks counterplay. If the capital fleet wants to move 5 midpoints away there is no feasible way to stop them. The only option you kind of have is trying to bubble them at their midpoints and that required you to know who is maybe hotdropping you, where are they coming from and which midpoints they plan on using and won't hold you for long.

So instead of blanket limitation to any movement there should be a way hinder your enemy's movement by doing something actively. I think someone proposed that if you jump with aggression you would get timer that stops you from making additional jumps. This would keep unopposed movement working as it does now, but would allow someone wanting to hinder capital movement to aggress the capitals to slow them down. The target could then either jump anyway and get stuck in their next system for a while or annihilate the opposition trying to slow them down, wait the aggression timer and jump.

Fixing that would we way less intrusive than blanket nerf on all movement, with the added benefit of making it harder to log out safely in a POS.

In all honesty I didn't expect the first thing that popped into my mind to be flawless and it was meant as an example of counterplayful option to solving the original problem. The flaw doesn't really subtract from the idea that lack of counterplay is in the core of power projection problem.

I also fear that the change you proposed is simply not feasible due to it's drastic effect on logistics and trade everywhere outside high-sec.

It's that real distance also constricting the veins that bring life from empire? I see a real possibility that we would end up with nobody of consequence living more than a jump away from empire?

Also it would be the same minutes away if you have the resources to use one jump freighter pilot per jump. If instead the supply line was disruptable maybe production capability in staging system would be valuable way to resist losing the ability to run operations due to loss of supply.

On a side note. There is one thing that teleports faster than anything else in game, ISK. When the renters rat in the far reaches of null and tick for ISK it can be instantly wired to Jita to buy anything you want. What if that is the thing breaking the economy. Last Fanfest I asked the economists why there are no player backed currencies and they gave the superiority of ISK as a currency as the main reason. ISK is has all the features you want from a currency and hardly any downsides. There is no point in even considering any alternatives.

As I mentioned in another thread, perhaps mass/distance limitation would be simple and efficient answer:

- mass/distance limitation (similar to wormholes, but with added distance constraint)
- extended cooldown per mass limit

Essentially only certain amount of mass is allowed per ly distance (and it's set to sensible number). Once the limit is depleted, the bridge/jumpdrive has to go into extended cooldown before it can be used again.

This would limit overusage of teleportation over nonsensical distances - but - wouldn't cripple relatively small (as they should be) fleet movements or normal daily usage (pos bridges).

Also - the distance should be counted using shortest possible stargate path to the destination system.


Also keep in mind, that without nerfing/altering/changing reinforce timers this wouldn't change that much - thismust be addressed as well (introduce outpost insurances ? adjust construction costs ? adjust offenses/defenses ?). And the jump clone issue still remains.

So instead of 6 characters showing up in capitals to attack a small force who is defending a small pocket of space - they show up with just one. I think they will be much happier against those new odds don't you think?

First of all, I really dislike how you and others keep labeling this idea I have as arbitrary or other descriptions that insult the amount of time and research I put into it. I did not just wake up one day, slap it together in five minutes and throw it against the wall to see if it would stick. I have been working on this for months and in a way, longer due to interviews and experiences for years.

Now, to your cyno spool up time. I don't like it because it does not address the problem enough. The only thing it does is slow down crossing the map by a few minutes and it still allows an entire force to use 100% of any teleportation mechanic at their leisure like jump drives and bridges. Also you keep forgetting that gates still exist, so you thinking there is some brickwall on movement is completely false. Just because you can't take 100% of your force and bridge/jump on top of someone does not mean it is impossible to get there.

What people need to understand is many of the symptoms they are experiencing now are because of the rapid teleportation mechanics. The only way to keep teleportation as a mechanic that can be used is to remove the unlimited factor about it. And it has to be a very hard limiting factor. Not something temporary that someone can just wait a few seconds or a few minutes to overcome. It has to be enough that they opt to take a gate and make a decision on travel time to get somewhere. Your spool up time means nothing when it comes to important timers. You still will have xyz coalition showing up with any ship they please and with anyone that happens to be logged in and with Jabber ping on.

There needs to be breathing room made to make improvements in the game. Improvements that can not be done right now because you have to take into consideration everyone and their brother showing up to anything with anything. The time it takes to invade and fully conquer a system needs to be shorter than the time it takes someone to cross the map to affect it. Well, we can't exactly lower it too much because then you start getting into time zone wars. You go to bed owning a system, wake up to find out someone invaded and conquered everything you have while you were asleep.

Whatever you or anyone else comes up with, you have to keep that in mind. Can someone from the other side of the map show up in full force, affect the outcome of a timer/invasion and zip back home before their territory was in any danger? If yes, then it will not help things. Sure it will mean you can't just do some road trip every weekend to anywhere in the game you like using next to nothing in effort to move everything for those two days. But, what is your road trip but an attack with a predetermined time to retreat? How is the teleportation mechanics supposed to know the difference in your intent? "Well these guys are going full blown invasion so we need to slow them down, but these guys over here. They are just doing a little road trip so no need to change their method of traveling across the game map in a few minutes." It just doesn't work like that.

Uh, yeah, actually it does. That word gets thrown around a lot on these forums and most people are using it wrong.



As you can see. It was not random choices or a personal whim. I read everything you wrote and to be frank, I have addressed each of those multiple times.

I'lll admit I only read the first 2 pages, way to late (or early) for me to read all of it in one go.

The addition of PPP does not seem to be the best way to approach the problem.

Honestly looking at it from the side of limiting number of ships that can jump to each cyno might be better, and would require more logistics, couple this with a spool up time, the cyno's themselves would require a fleet to defend, and suddenly it becomes a battle to keep cyno's alive.

Maybe even add a little bit of tanking ability to cyno field generators (Similar to Siege and Bastion) amping up resistances a bit, but on the other hand disabling guns.

So if the spool up time for jumping and/or bridging would be set at around 30 to maybe even 60-120 seconds, the actual Power Projection becomes different than it is now. It will still allow alliances to hold some vast space, but will also allow the opposing fleets to setup interdiction fleets to deal with hostile cyno's along a cyno chain.

The limit on ships that jumps through one cyno could be based on a new stat that could be named "Jump Weight"
The Jump Weight could be set as 1 titan as base, so one cyno cycle can bring through one titan.
Also, cyno generators w hen active will have a charge value showing how much it can still jump through.

Just throwing some random numbers here.

Jump Weight for each class of ships:
Shuttles / Frigates: 5 (20 Frigates in one cyno cycle)
Destroyers: 7 (14 Destroyers in one cyno cycle)
Cruisers: 10 (10 Cruisers in one cyno cycle)
Battlecruisers: 12 (8 Battleships in one cyno cycle)
Strategic Cruisers: 15 (6 Strategic Cruisers in one cyno cycle)
Battleships: 20 (5 Battleships in one cyno cycle)
Dreadnought: 33 (3 Dreadnoughts in one cyno cycle)
Carrier / Jump Freighter: 33 (3 Carriers in one cyno cycle)
Super Carrier: 50 (2 Super Carriers in one cyno cycle)
Titan: 100 (1 Titan in one cyno cycle)

(Remember, these numbers were basically pulled out of a hat, so no specifics here, and specific ships might have a lower or higher Jump Weight, to account for the fact that they are specialized in being bridged.)

This means that power projecting sub cap fleets becomes easier, but super cap and cap fleets becomes significantly more difficult to move through straight to a battle.

I'd also make this change along with a cyno change that allows the module to be deactivated mid cyno, but with a minute or two cooldown. This will allow cyno ships to attempt to get to safety after a succesful cyno, and allow them to call in further reinforcements later.

This also automatically limits the number of ships one Titan Bridge Cycle can jump through at a time, limiting the hot dropping of massive sub cap fleets, meaning even MORE logistics as well as more Titans needed to bridge more through.

It also makes Cyno'ing a bit more exciting, as having to stay alive for the spool time, as well as then get to safety, so you can call in more reinforcements.

It also becomes a team effort as Hero-Cyno will now be near useless.

This will still not affect the usual jump freighter logistics, or logistics of carrier transport, only for fleet deployment.

The effects it will have is that bridging for fights is still very much viable, but you can't cyno on the grid of an ongoing battle, without the risk of dying before you even cyno.

It requires more logistical setup, and better organization, favoring alliances and corporations that bothers getting proper teamwork setup, vs random blobs of random people.

It also means a Titan can't automatically follow through a cyno when everyones been cyno'ed through.

Be free to critisize this idea, and if the OP thinks this would be another good suggestion, I'd urge OP to add this (Better formatted than how I wrote it, since I wrote it midday.... with no sleep) to the original post.

Be free to bash this idea if it is horrible, and be free to like it if you ... you know... like it.

An admirable suggestion, however I would suggest that there are a few stopping points between 7 minutes and 7747 minutes that could be visited.

You're focusing on defense entirely too much. In an offensive setting, a small group may need far more mobility than this to run an effective hit and run campaign. Small groups should be able to be more mobile in offense and defense alike.

I propose cutting the jump range of supercarriers to 3.5 LY, and making cynos have a mass limit and mass regeneration per second. So a cyno would have 2.1 billion kg of mass to start off with and would regenerate 20 million kg per second

The lore surrounding this would be that a large mass object landing at a cyno destabilizes it and makes it more difficult for other ships to lock onto the cyno. Force recons are better at compensating for this effect and thus are able to pass more mass through in a shorter time.

Then after every jump I would require a ship to have a wait time until it can jump again (allowing for the ship's jump drive to cool down). Something like:
DistanceJumped / MaxJumpRange * 15 = MinutesUntilNextJump

This would simultaneously fix several problems in new eden

1. provide the force recons with a useful bonus to cynos (+200% mass regeneration)
2. scale cap ship logistics with the size of the fleet (moving more ships either requires more time or more cyno alts)
3. Limit the ease of force projection
4. make cyno travel of large groups far more disrupt-able and obvious.

Now of course this would only make travel more annoying but not really do much else unless you were able to take sov in a much shorter time frame. Im thinking something like giving the attackers the ability to sync the reinforce timers of certain systems, so the attackers buy special syncing SBUs, and they force the I-Hubs in those systems to have the same reinforce timers. You would still have to RF them both, but they would all come out of RF at the same time.

This would mean that you could actually force your opponent to split his resources or risk losing one of the systems to a "drive by" Again with the new cap ships not able to bounce around as much, this would really force defending alliances to think about where they deployed their forces.