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[Rubicon 1.3] T1 Frigate and Cruiser Balance Pass

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Sara Navorski
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#141 - 2014-02-26 22:45:52 UTC
The breacher is already an extremely capable scram-range kiter, and is flown almost exclusively in this role.

I don't see why it's getting a speed increase to help it keep range even better than it already does. Why is it getting this increase?
Markku Laaksonen
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#142 - 2014-02-26 22:57:04 UTC
Can someone explain the Amarr Mass/Speed thing in a way that a child could understand it? Or maybe a really dumb guy? Like me?

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Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#143 - 2014-02-26 23:04:45 UTC
Markku Laaksonen wrote:
Can someone explain the Amarr Mass/Speed thing in a way that a child could understand it? Or maybe a really dumb guy? Like me?


Higher mass means worse agility (slower align time, slower acceleration), and vice versa. An elephant turns around slower than a cat does.

Higher mass means fitting a plate has less of an effect on agility. You can put a 100 kg bag on an elephant and it won't care. Put one on a cat and it's crippled.

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IbanezLaney
The Church of Awesome
#144 - 2014-02-26 23:52:45 UTC
Moa buffed?

CCP do love me.

Big smile

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JackyDawg Pyrous
12D Chess Corp
Interplanetary Industries
#145 - 2014-02-27 00:40:14 UTC
Awwwww no Punisher mid slot? I do like the +mass/+velo bonuses
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#146 - 2014-02-27 02:12:04 UTC
Ransu Asanari wrote:
Changing this to a ROF bonus feels like a nerf, since it means you're doing less damage between reloads and you're running out of ammo faster.

Instead of a 25% DPS bonus, it is becoming a 32.5% DPS bonus. The reload time doesn't affect the DPS significantly.

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Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#147 - 2014-02-27 02:12:46 UTC
Goldensaver wrote:
Tarek Raimo wrote:
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
Punisher FW fit:

If you get into a neut fight with a slasher for example, the slasher will cap out while the punisher is still sitting at around 40% cap.

What do most pilots try to do against an Amarr ship? Neut it. Get under the guns. This fit plays to that strategy.


Not that capping out a slasher will net you that much except the ability to GTFO if you need to. After all, you wont shut it's gun down. Against Gallente or Caldari hybrid based frigs or other Amarr frigs, this is pretty nasty for sure.

Also shut off his prop and tackle allowing you not only to get away, but to get some range so he's no longer under your guns and you can apply damage properly. Not that it'll last long given the tackle cap use bonus or the relatively low cap use of frigate sized prop mods, so yeah, you're probably better off just running while you can.



The Punisher's Grid and cap buffs seem to mirror the pilot having a genolution set - CA-1 and CA-2. If that is the case then a punisher will run AB, Scram, Gatling Pulses, DC, and a small neut for 9 minutes and 24 seconds. P (which, having said implants, is how long they run for me)
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#148 - 2014-02-27 02:18:37 UTC
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
Markku Laaksonen wrote:
Can someone explain the Amarr Mass/Speed thing in a way that a child could understand it? Or maybe a really dumb guy? Like me?


Higher mass means worse agility (slower align time, slower acceleration), and vice versa. An elephant turns around slower than a cat does.

Higher mass means fitting a plate has less of an effect on agility. You can put a 100 kg bag on an elephant and it won't care. Put one on a cat and it's crippled.


that and they now put that elephant on skates so it turns fast anyways.

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#149 - 2014-02-27 02:49:32 UTC
I am curious to know why the Arbitrator was not included in the Ammar cruisers getting a remake.
Louis Robichaud
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#150 - 2014-02-27 03:05:22 UTC
Hasikan Miallok wrote:
I am curious to know why the Arbitrator was not included in the Ammar cruisers getting a remake.



A good question. As I said earlier, it could benefit from the speed "tweak". A touch of lock range wouldn't hurt either.


I do note that none of the ewar cruisers were on this list. The celestis was nerfed a bit, along with all other damps though. I would speculate that as the recon ships are re-balanced, the t1 ewar cruisers will receive attention as well.

I blog a bit http://hspew.blogspot.ca
Goldensaver
Maraque Enterprises
Just let it happen
#151 - 2014-02-27 03:10:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Goldensaver
Markku Laaksonen wrote:
Can someone explain the Amarr Mass/Speed thing in a way that a child could understand it? Or maybe a really dumb guy? Like me?

I was going to do a spreadsheet for every Amarr ship that was affected, but I got lazy, so you only get this much.

It's a pretty thorough spreadsheet about how the changes affect the mobility of the Punisher, and compares it to now.

Edit: for the most part we have an average of a 95% align time for a slight improvement to the align speed, with a 0-2% increase in velocity under propulsion mods, and 7% without them active.
Debir Achen
Makiriemi Holdings
#152 - 2014-02-27 03:57:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Debir Achen
Markku Laaksonen wrote:
Can someone explain the Amarr Mass/Speed thing in a way that a child could understand it? Or maybe a really dumb guy? Like me?
Speed under prop mod = base speed * (1 + boost * thrust / (ship mass + prop mass))

So, at zero skill, a 1MN MWD increases your max speed by 500% * (1.5M / (500k + ship mass))

Thus, old punisher: mass 1047k, inertia 3.35, speed 330
New punisher: mass 1190k, inertia 2.90, speed 355

Under MWD:
Old punisher: 330 * (1 + 5*(1.5M / (500k + 1047)) ~= 1929.8
New punisher: 355 * (1 + 5*(1.5M / (500k + 1190)) ~= 1930.4

So, baseline speed under MWD is the same (before skills and bonuses, but these all multiply linearly).

What about acceleration? Well, it's complex, but basically acceleration is a function of speed / (mass * inertia).

Old punisher: 330 / (3.35 * 1047) ~= 330 / 3507450 ~= 94u
New punisher: 355 / (2.9 * 1190) ~= 355 / 3451000 ~= 102u

If you do the math under MWD (don't forget to include the extra mass) you will see similar numbers.

So, the "new" punisher is faster than the old one without prop mod, and slightly faster than the old one under MWD.

So what?

The trick is the effect of adding mass. You'll notice that adding mass makes all the above numbers worse. However, we've just increased the base mass by 10%, and compensated by tweaking the other values. As a result, the relative effect of adding more mass is lessened.

So, add 400mm plates, which increase mass by 375k. Originally, these were a little over 1/3 of the mass. Now they are a little under 1/3. This means that the net effect on speed under prop mod and on alignment is reduced.

Aren't Caldari supposed to have a large signature?
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#153 - 2014-02-27 04:34:41 UTC
Debir Achen wrote:
Markku Laaksonen wrote:
Can someone explain the Amarr Mass/Speed thing in a way that a child could understand it? Or maybe a really dumb guy? Like me?
Speed under prop mod = base speed * (1 + boost * thrust / (ship mass + prop mass))

So, at zero skill, a 1MN MWD increases your max speed by 500% * (1.5M / (500k + ship mass))

Thus, old punisher: mass 1047k, inertia 3.35, speed 330
New punisher: mass 1190k, inertia 2.90, speed 355

Under MWD:
Old punisher: 330 * (1 + 5*(1.5M / (500k + 1047)) ~= 1929.8
New punisher: 355 * (1 + 5*(1.5M / (500k + 1190)) ~= 1930.4

So, baseline speed under MWD is the same (before skills and bonuses, but these all multiply linearly).

What about acceleration? Well, it's complex, but basically acceleration is a function of speed / (mass * inertia).

Old punisher: 330 / (3.35 * 1047) ~= 330 / 3507450 ~= 94u
New punisher: 355 / (2.9 * 1190) ~= 355 / 3451000 ~= 102u

If you do the math under MWD (don't forget to include the extra mass) you will see similar numbers.

So, the "new" punisher is faster than the old one without prop mod, and slightly faster than the old one under MWD.

So what?

The trick is the effect of adding mass. You'll notice that adding mass makes all the above numbers worse. However, we've just increased the base mass by 10%, and compensated by tweaking the other values. As a result, the relative effect of adding more mass is lessened.

So, add 400mm plates, which increase mass by 375k. Originally, these were a little over 1/3 of the mass. Now they are a little under 1/3. This means that the net effect on speed under prop mod and on alignment is reduced.

I need this. I'm saving it. Know any good sites or links that explain it in further detail?
Yazzinra
Scorpion Ventures
#154 - 2014-02-27 05:18:57 UTC
Sentinel Smith wrote:
All this sounds good, I like the proposed changes.. but I have a very important question.

Is THIS http://i.imgur.com/tZHUw8F.jpg The future of the Fed Navy Comet?

Now CCP, before you answer, the only correct response is yes. For the love of god, YES. Please free those of us that love our Comets from the drab Jungle Camo and dull yellow light you have forced us to endure since it's last graphical update.


I love spacecamo as much as the next GIRL, but if you do this for the comet, I promise not to yell at anyone for at least a whole couple of seconds. maybe even a handful!

the old comet paint job was amazing, camo is niceish, but this looks great.
also, flashing light!
Odithia
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#155 - 2014-02-27 07:15:21 UTC
What is the effect of Armor rigs on the new updated heavy Amarr ships ?
As they count as percentage and not fixed value of mass.
Taoist Dragon
Okata Syndicate
#156 - 2014-02-27 07:27:07 UTC
+1 for Rifter and Punisher changes.

+1million for not falling into the craptrap of thinking the punisher 'needs' a 3rd mid \o/

That is the Way, the Tao.

Balance is everything.
Deerin
East Trading Co Ltd
#157 - 2014-02-27 07:33:41 UTC
Goldensaver wrote:
Michael Harari wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Ransu Asanari wrote:
I'm honestly not a fan of the Breacher ROF change. Having the damage bonus not be type-specific meant it was one of the few ships that could actually use the missile advantage of selectable damage, and was very versatile. I really enjoyed flying the Breacher during the Stay Frosty Frigate FFA and used this to great effect.

Changing this to a ROF bonus feels like a nerf, since it means you're doing less damage between reloads and you're running out of ammo faster.


I think you'll find that the increase in dps will be significant enough to more than balance out the more common reloads.


The DPS increase is tiny: 105.26% vs 105.00%

I don't think that 0.26% extra damage over time is going to swing any fights. What is relevent is that the Breacher will get it's extra volley in more often.



Its actually a 4% increase in dps.



*6.4% Mr. President.

(1/.75) / 1.25 = 1.33 / 1.25 = 1.064 = 6.4% for a 6.4% increase in DPS at level 5.


It is actually around 4% when you factor in the reload time. So Mr.President is right.
Hairpins Blueprint
The Northerners
Pandemic Horde
#158 - 2014-02-27 08:42:33 UTC
how about finally give 5'th med slot to vaga ... this ship RELLY NEED 5 med slot Roll

+1 for the speed of logi frigs Twisted
Sway M4G
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#159 - 2014-02-27 09:20:38 UTC
breacher for the king of frigates \o/
Loki Feiht
Warcrows
Sedition.
#160 - 2014-02-27 11:01:16 UTC
You have to be joking, more re-balances? more like overbalancing....

Are you guys thinking about actually putting in some content in the next patch or just changing a few numbers and calling it an expansion?

More NPC - Randomly Generated Modular Content thread https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=220858