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[Rubicon 1.3] T1 Frigate and Cruiser Balance Pass

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Tetsuo Tsukaya
Perkone
Caldari State
#121 - 2014-02-26 18:32:03 UTC
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Tetsuo Tsukaya wrote:
The Tormentor is probably the best T1 frigate in the game once you're in scram range, for the love of god don't screw with it by doing something stupid like adding missiles


Its not, not even close.


That's just like, your opinion man.

150dps in scram kite range
180 dps in brawling range

(Unheated scorch/multifreq)

While being tankier than most other frigs bar the punisher. Nothing else packs that versatility bar the Tristan
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#122 - 2014-02-26 18:34:02 UTC
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Tetsuo Tsukaya wrote:
The Tormentor is probably the best T1 frigate in the game once you're in scram range, for the love of god don't screw with it by doing something stupid like adding missiles


Its not, not even close.


I think it's ok. kind of over-reliant on scorch plebbing, but that's amarr for you.
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#123 - 2014-02-26 18:49:11 UTC
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
Goldensaver wrote:

Good thing to note, Mediums have a signature resolution of 40 technically putting them in the small weapons system class, though it's somewhat odd as they have pretty low application, but rather high damage for a small weapon system

Nope, you're mixing up signature radius and signature resolution. Mediums have a signature radius of 50m, which means they're as hard to hit as a fat frigate (buffer Harpy or something).

They have a signature resolution of 125m which puts them on the same footing as medium guns as far as tracking goes.

The messed up thing is that heavies still have a signature resolution of 125m (cruiser guns), instead of 400m (battleship guns). That, coupled with heavies' tendency to move around and break their own tracking less, makes heavies often hit frigates better than mediums do.

Heavies also have a signature radius of 100m, which is slightly smaller than that of a Stabber.

Signature radius = How "big" your ship/drone is; the bigger it is, the easier it is to hit.
Signature resolution = How "big" your weapon is; the bigger it is, the harder time it has hitting things.
Scan resolution = How fast you target stuff

I hate these names, so easy to confuse.


Agreed on the definitions.
CCP spends so much time on fixing things that may or may not need it, but allow ambiguous terms like this remain.
When I was in the UNI, even explaining gunnery to new players, let alone drone warfare, was always difficult because of the terminology.
Hachi Ironfist
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#124 - 2014-02-26 20:12:03 UTC
I am really wondering why did the Amarr get the buff to the armour plates and not Gallente... I thought they were the great tanks at close range :/
Quinten Sarn
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#125 - 2014-02-26 20:14:27 UTC
the rifter has been turned into an effective kiting boat but ws not given the tackle module cap usage bonus meaning it has terrible cap when kiting with a long point. i EFTed some fits and the best i could do was give it 1 min 20 cap life, barely enough to kill anything even remotely tanky. is this intentional or an unintended side effect of the role change?
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#126 - 2014-02-26 20:15:07 UTC
Hachi Ironfist wrote:
I am really wondering why did the Amarr get the buff to the armour plates and not Gallente... I thought they were the great tanks at close range :/

Because the Gallente are already faster, and as a racial pattern they lean toward active tanking, not buffer tanking.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#127 - 2014-02-26 20:18:27 UTC
Quinten Sarn wrote:
the rifter has been turned into an effective kiting boat but ws not given the tackle module cap usage bonus meaning it has terrible cap when kiting with a long point. i EFTed some fits and the best i could do was give it 1 min 20 cap life, barely enough to kill anything even remotely tanky. is this intentional or an unintended side effect of the role change?


I suggest you learn to pulse your MWD, kill your targets more quickly, or both. 1-2 minutes is very common for the cap life of kiting T1 ships. Refer to the Slicer, Stabber, Omen, and Caracal. The Rifter is not an attack frigate and a bonus to tackle cap usage would put it way out of line compared to other combat frigates.

Also, Minmatar are known for having poor total cap, in exchange for having cap-independent weapons. Work around it.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
Derren Zelway
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#128 - 2014-02-26 20:32:30 UTC
Any chance Destroyers are going to be looked at? *cough* Corax *cough*
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#129 - 2014-02-26 20:46:09 UTC
Derren Zelway wrote:
Any chance Destroyers are going to be looked at? *cough* Corax *cough*


cough all of them. they need dictor speed.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#130 - 2014-02-26 21:19:56 UTC
Do we know when these are going to be on the test server? I am interested to see how the Amarr ships work out.

Would it be possible to get a better (more thorough) explanation of the overall effects of the mass/speed changes?

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Milton Middleson
Rifterlings
#131 - 2014-02-26 21:20:49 UTC
TrouserDeagle wrote:
Derren Zelway wrote:
Any chance Destroyers are going to be looked at? *cough* Corax *cough*


cough all of them. they need dictor speed.


I, too, hate assault frigates.
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#132 - 2014-02-26 21:31:11 UTC
Milton Middleson wrote:
TrouserDeagle wrote:
Derren Zelway wrote:
Any chance Destroyers are going to be looked at? *cough* Corax *cough*


cough all of them. they need dictor speed.


I, too, hate assault frigates.


Corax spewing Alphas of over 1400 out to 63km while going 3-4km/s. What could go wrong? Roll
Tetsuo Tsukaya
Perkone
Caldari State
#133 - 2014-02-26 21:38:02 UTC
TrouserDeagle wrote:
Derren Zelway wrote:
Any chance Destroyers are going to be looked at? *cough* Corax *cough*


cough all of them. they need dictor speed.


Should also have the ability to launch bubbles.
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#134 - 2014-02-26 21:40:31 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Ransu Asanari wrote:
I'm honestly not a fan of the Breacher ROF change. Having the damage bonus not be type-specific meant it was one of the few ships that could actually use the missile advantage of selectable damage, and was very versatile. I really enjoyed flying the Breacher during the Stay Frosty Frigate FFA and used this to great effect.

Changing this to a ROF bonus feels like a nerf, since it means you're doing less damage between reloads and you're running out of ammo faster.


I think you'll find that the increase in dps will be significant enough to more than balance out the more common reloads.


The DPS increase is tiny: 105.26% vs 105.00%

I don't think that 0.26% extra damage over time is going to swing any fights. What is relevent is that the Breacher will get it's extra volley in more often.



Its actually a 4% increase in dps.
Tarek Raimo
Eleutherian Guard
#135 - 2014-02-26 21:43:31 UTC
Ships that get mass increase and inertia reduction, and others that get mass reduction and inertia increase.

Fozzie and his team just took Newton's laws of physics quietly out the back door and shot them in the back of the head. P
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#136 - 2014-02-26 22:02:23 UTC
Tarek Raimo wrote:
Ships that get mass increase and inertia reduction, and others that get mass reduction and inertia increase.

Fozzie and his team just took Newton's laws of physics quietly out the back door and shot them in the back of the head. P


Inertial mass and gravitational mass not being the same thing is ok. Its definitely better than the collision mechanics, or ships slowing to a stop.
Sentinel Smith
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#137 - 2014-02-26 22:08:05 UTC
All this sounds good, I like the proposed changes.. but I have a very important question.

Is THIS http://i.imgur.com/tZHUw8F.jpg The future of the Fed Navy Comet?

Now CCP, before you answer, the only correct response is yes. For the love of god, YES. Please free those of us that love our Comets from the drab Jungle Camo and dull yellow light you have forced us to endure since it's last graphical update.
Goldensaver
Maraque Enterprises
Just let it happen
#138 - 2014-02-26 22:08:19 UTC
Michael Harari wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Ransu Asanari wrote:
I'm honestly not a fan of the Breacher ROF change. Having the damage bonus not be type-specific meant it was one of the few ships that could actually use the missile advantage of selectable damage, and was very versatile. I really enjoyed flying the Breacher during the Stay Frosty Frigate FFA and used this to great effect.

Changing this to a ROF bonus feels like a nerf, since it means you're doing less damage between reloads and you're running out of ammo faster.


I think you'll find that the increase in dps will be significant enough to more than balance out the more common reloads.


The DPS increase is tiny: 105.26% vs 105.00%

I don't think that 0.26% extra damage over time is going to swing any fights. What is relevent is that the Breacher will get it's extra volley in more often.



Its actually a 4% increase in dps.



*6.4% Mr. President.

(1/.75) / 1.25 = 1.33 / 1.25 = 1.064 = 6.4% for a 6.4% increase in DPS at level 5.
Tarek Raimo
Eleutherian Guard
#139 - 2014-02-26 22:27:14 UTC
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
Punisher FW fit:

If you get into a neut fight with a slasher for example, the slasher will cap out while the punisher is still sitting at around 40% cap.

What do most pilots try to do against an Amarr ship? Neut it. Get under the guns. This fit plays to that strategy.


Not that capping out a slasher will net you that much except the ability to GTFO if you need to. After all, you wont shut it's gun down. Against Gallente or Caldari hybrid based frigs or other Amarr frigs, this is pretty nasty for sure.
Goldensaver
Maraque Enterprises
Just let it happen
#140 - 2014-02-26 22:32:43 UTC
Tarek Raimo wrote:
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
Punisher FW fit:

If you get into a neut fight with a slasher for example, the slasher will cap out while the punisher is still sitting at around 40% cap.

What do most pilots try to do against an Amarr ship? Neut it. Get under the guns. This fit plays to that strategy.


Not that capping out a slasher will net you that much except the ability to GTFO if you need to. After all, you wont shut it's gun down. Against Gallente or Caldari hybrid based frigs or other Amarr frigs, this is pretty nasty for sure.

Also shut off his prop and tackle allowing you not only to get away, but to get some range so he's no longer under your guns and you can apply damage properly. Not that it'll last long given the tackle cap use bonus or the relatively low cap use of frigate sized prop mods, so yeah, you're probably better off just running while you can.