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[Kronos] Pirate Faction Frigates

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Mike Whiite
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#781 - 2014-02-26 18:03:44 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Hi guys sorry for the space between posts, I wasn't in the office today, and I'm still not Sad

There's two things I can say, one is that we are going to change the Succubus role bonus damage from 125% to 150% to keep the damage potential the same as before. Thanks someone in the thread for pointing that out.

Second, I'll try to put together a longer post tomorrow addressing the conversations around the missile bonus on the Worm and the web bonus on the Cruor. For now I have to leave you with just this though =/

Thanks



Could you also shine a light on the AB bonus on the succubus, instead of a more Caldari related bonus?
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#782 - 2014-02-26 18:10:16 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Hi guys sorry for the space between posts, I wasn't in the office today, and I'm still not Sad

There's two things I can say, one is that we are going to change the Succubus role bonus damage from 125% to 150% to keep the damage potential the same as before. Thanks someone in the thread for pointing that out.

Second, I'll try to put together a longer post tomorrow addressing the conversations around the missile bonus on the Worm and the web bonus on the Cruor. For now I have to leave you with just this though =/

Thanks


all i can say is missile bonus for gal is heresy...

if you are keen on keeping the missile bonus(something i wish was removed) then please make it the role bonus and make the drone hp/damage the skill bonus.

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
Medalyn Isis
Doomheim
#783 - 2014-02-26 18:18:25 UTC
Mike Whiite wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
Hi guys sorry for the space between posts, I wasn't in the office today, and I'm still not Sad

There's two things I can say, one is that we are going to change the Succubus role bonus damage from 125% to 150% to keep the damage potential the same as before. Thanks someone in the thread for pointing that out.

Second, I'll try to put together a longer post tomorrow addressing the conversations around the missile bonus on the Worm and the web bonus on the Cruor. For now I have to leave you with just this though =/

Thanks



Could you also shine a light on the AB bonus on the succubus, instead of a more Caldari related bonus?

A shield resistance bonus would be more apt.

Also as TrouseDeagle says, consider dropping the web bonus altogether. The current web effectiveness bonus is good, but if you really want to get rid of that then instead of a range bonus consider giving it a speed bonus, either in the form of a prop mod bonus or baseline speed.
Anya Klibor
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#784 - 2014-02-26 18:18:26 UTC
Aglais wrote:
Dav Varan wrote:

Really wouldn't wants to fly a multi million isk frig that has such terrible mobility and will get kited to death by a couple of scrub condors.


How about making the worm a fast drone kiter rather than a slow drone brawler.
5 drones is also more fun than 2.



A "couple of Scrub Condors" are going to get eviscerated by these drones. The Worm has near AF levels of tank, and it's drones are going to be ridiculously powerful and survivable. Furthermore- the Worm as a shield tanking missile/drone platform, that operates distinctly at close range, fills a role that does not currently exist in the game. Two or three of these will not be easily killed if their pilots know what they're doing. Not only that, but it's velocity is increasing, it's still really light... It's not going to be nearly as bad as you think.

Also what's with all the "the fun of the worm comes from being able to launch and micromanage five drones" people?


I disagree.

My preferred fit involves light missiles, a long point, and a MWD. It has seven minutes of capacitor, allowing it to maintain a positive burn. On top of that, it goes about 2,800 m/s before boosts or implants. It's DPS is roughly 150.

This new Worm will have more DPS on paper, if you are using kinetic or thermal damage. I'll be honest, I think that forcing Caldari ships into kinetic damage only is among the stupidest ideas available, much as the Cerberus's "flight time" bonus is equally stupid.

Ships have an innately resilient tank to both Kinetic and Thermal damage, and more-so at the T2 level (Caldari and Gallente both have reists specific to these damage profiles; Amarr is resistant to Kinetic and Minmatar to Thermal). Byt forcing people to use these damage types, you are negating DPS, not increasing it.

All this crap about the Worm having an "AF-style tank" is wrong: you don't have the slots to make use of any type of tank. Four mid slots means you have fit to kite, meaning that your tank is range and speed, not an actual tank based on your profile. This means you're light missile fit, and this means you need a velocity bonus to your missiles.

Guess what was removed?

So, it's not a brawler: the Hookbill will do that far better with it's ability to dictate range easier plus a shield extender. It's not a kiter because it's got no range bonus to it's missiles. It's drones are absolute garbage (and yes, they're garbage: any drone miss is the equivalent of three-four drones missing at a time). It is being forced into damage profiles that people usually have a decent resistance again.

I'm getting awfully tired of half-assed decisions.

Leadership is something you learn. Maybe one day, you'll learn that.
Cade Windstalker
#785 - 2014-02-26 18:19:28 UTC
Silivar Karkun wrote:
then i propose the following:

CRUOR

Amarr Frigate Bonus:
4% to all armor resistances

Minmatar Frigate Bonus:
20% to statis webifier and energy vampire effectivenes

Role Bonus:
100% to energy turret damage

note: Energy Vampires operate as though your capacitor is empty (this wording is work in progress)

max velocity increased from 308 to 340-350 even 360 (?)

the original blood raider doctrine was about draining and webbing the enemy while killing it with short ranged weapons, the bonuses above are based in that doctrine, 20% more resistances allows to get a bit more of tank at close range, while the 20% bonus to stasis webifier and energy vampire bonuses keep the enemy in a stop.

the drawback is that you have to get close to the enemy, in order to do so the ship gets a bit more of max velocity....


Oh gods no. Just for a start a 20% per level bonus to webs would be... there aren't words for how broken that would be but it basically comes down to 100% webs. No.

In-fact your version is basically just entirely too strong across the board.
Cade Windstalker
#786 - 2014-02-26 18:27:51 UTC
Anya Klibor wrote:
Ships have an innately resilient tank to both Kinetic and Thermal damage, and more-so at the T2 level (Caldari and Gallente both have reists specific to these damage profiles; Amarr is resistant to Kinetic and Minmatar to Thermal). Byt forcing people to use these damage types, you are negating DPS, not increasing it.

....

So, it's not a brawler: the Hookbill will do that far better with it's ability to dictate range easier plus a shield extender. It's not a kiter because it's got no range bonus to it's missiles. It's drones are absolute garbage (and yes, they're garbage: any drone miss is the equivalent of three-four drones missing at a time). It is being forced into damage profiles that people usually have a decent resistance again.

I'm getting awfully tired of half-assed decisions.


Going by the pattern of other ships if the Worm was getting a regular missile bonus it would drop down to 25% per level, which is overall a damage nerf compared to just slinging 50% bonused Kin or Therm. Plus if you're talking about enemies with an actually fitted out tank then Kin/Therm tend to be on the lower end of things because of plugging EM/Explosive holes.

I don't know if you've actually done the tracking math on Light Drones but in order for one to reliably miss a frigate sized target, like flat out miss, requires the frigate to be going so fast that the drones are just out-ranged and means that any other weapon is probably missing as well.

Plus the Worm actually has two more bonused weapons than any of the other frigates which both have only two turrets and no one's complaining about *those* sucking because of the potential for one to flat miss.
Aliventi
Rattini Tribe
Minmatar Fleet Alliance
#787 - 2014-02-26 18:36:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Aliventi
I really do like these changes. I would rather see a 4% armor resist bonus appear on BR ships. Web range bonuses are cool and all, but we have other ships that have great web range. BR ships really shine at getting great neuts on target. They are frequently primaried because of it. More tank goes a long way when you are the logical primary because you are neuting out the enemy logi or other key ships.

Edit: Also, can we not have split weapon systems gurristas ships? Maybe this is just a personal preference but split weapon systems typically don't work as well as single weapon systems.
Ruaro
Space monitoring
#788 - 2014-02-26 18:49:57 UTC
I'm a bit conservative on role bonus instead of /per level bonus. Lets say in case of Worm a 1-2 days char (or alt with drone assist) will have (add) like 200ish pretty much unkillable drone dps.

And I have not too much familiar with drone assist - may it be delivered from safety of cloak or what mechanics if assisted drones are used in gank (some scenarios popped in my mind)?
Lycaon Arktos
Preon Corporation
#789 - 2014-02-26 18:53:22 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:


  • We need a missile based pirate faction - yes! We didn't want to use an existing faction for this for a few different reasons (Imagine the rage if Angel turned into missiles or Guristas just became Caldari), but we would like to address it as soon as possible. I don't know when that will be, but it won't be never.



    • I would think Mordu's Legion would be a very good fit for introducing a new line of missile based pirate ships with a Caldari flavor, no? Always thought it would be cool to have a reason to go mission for a merc corp as opposed to Empire or Pirate factions too.
    Leafar Nightfall
    Silent Owls
    #790 - 2014-02-26 18:57:51 UTC
    MeBiatch wrote:

    all i can say is missile bonus for gal is heresy...

    if you are keen on keeping the missile bonus(something i wish was removed) then please make it the role bonus and make the drone hp/damage the skill bonus.


    x1000 this

    Missile bonus have a minor effect (since there's only two launchers) and is tied to a spaceship command skill, while the drone bonus, way more important, is a huge role bonus to which you have instant access as soon as you enter the ship? Doesn't seem right, specially with the missiles being related to the gallente skill.

    IMO the missiles are a secondary/support weapon system in the Worm, and drones are the main. So there's no sense in putting damage bonuses for missiles as the effects will be minimal.

    I'd prefer a lot more to have the drone bonus (whatever it is) tied to the gallente frigate skill, which makes much more sense.



    As to which drone bonus is fit, I still find strange to have only drones with a 300% bonus to damage and hitpoints. The concept of having two "wingmans" is nice, but it would feel very strange to have a small drone alone to be as powerful as four. Just doesn't seem right, it sounds like it's there just to have a brand new bonus type to make the Worm exclusive.

    Also, people usually train Drones V to be able to fly a full fleet of drones, and all out of sudden you have a ship with a 300% bonus that is "usable" for someone with Drones II. Sure you still need to have Drones V to train Drone Interfacing and make them fully effective, but it still sounds weird to have the Drones skill not directly affecting it.

    I'd still prefer to see the Worm flying with 5 medium drones and no damage bonuses to missiles, then to have two "OP" light drones. Have the worm have a 50/50 drone bandwith/bay and a 10% tracking+hp/level bonus tied to gallente frigate skill, and it would feel way less weird, while having the tracking as a tradeoff for bigger drones, and one could still use the drone bay for two sets of light drones if wanted.
    Leafar Nightfall
    Silent Owls
    #791 - 2014-02-26 19:02:31 UTC
    Ruaro wrote:

    And I have not too much familiar with drone assist - may it be delivered from safety of cloak or what mechanics if assisted drones are used in gank (some scenarios popped in my mind)?


    I'm not familiar with it either, but it seems the worm bonus could make it broken

    If the bonus given to drones is from the "assister" ship, you can have a fleet of worms assisting with OP drones. If the bonus is from the "assisted" ships, way worse: have a vexor give its drones to a Worm pilot and you'd have 28 effective drones

    Is this how drone assisting works? can someone clarify?
    Mr Floydy
    Questionable Ethics.
    Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
    #792 - 2014-02-26 19:11:29 UTC
    Fun changes on paper. Not got the time to sit down and theorycraft but I'm looking forward to trying them. Although not half as much as I am looking forward to seeing how these will roll out to Cruisers and then the Battleships!
    Medalyn Isis
    Doomheim
    #793 - 2014-02-26 19:12:23 UTC
    Leafar Nightfall wrote:
    Ruaro wrote:

    And I have not too much familiar with drone assist - may it be delivered from safety of cloak or what mechanics if assisted drones are used in gank (some scenarios popped in my mind)?


    I'm not familiar with it either, but it seems the worm bonus could make it broken

    If the bonus given to drones is from the "assister" ship, you can have a fleet of worms assisting with OP drones. If the bonus is from the "assisted" ships, way worse: have a vexor give its drones to a Worm pilot and you'd have 28 effective drones

    Is this how drone assisting works? can someone clarify?

    Drone assist works by using sentry drones dropped from carriers and using a small fast locking ship to fire them. So basically it has not relation in regards to the Worm, the Worm cannot even utilise a sentry drone.
    Leafar Nightfall
    Silent Owls
    #794 - 2014-02-26 19:15:00 UTC
    Medalyn Isis wrote:

    Drone assist works by using sentry drones dropped from carriers and using a small fast locking ship to fire them. So basically it has not relation in regards to the Worm, the Worm cannot even utilise a sentry drone.


    It only works with sentries?

    If so, just forget what I said
    Grath Telkin
    Amok.
    Goonswarm Federation
    #795 - 2014-02-26 19:42:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Grath Telkin
    Leafar Nightfall wrote:
    Medalyn Isis wrote:

    Drone assist works by using sentry drones dropped from carriers and using a small fast locking ship to fire them. So basically it has not relation in regards to the Worm, the Worm cannot even utilise a sentry drone.


    It only works with sentries?

    If so, just forget what I said


    It works with other types of drones but its the coordinated volley fire that pisses people off about sentries.

    Drone assist is used by other smaller groups for other reasons but if people are really worried about a frickin fleet of Woms then I have no idea what to do with you at all. If the idea of assisting drones pisses people off then they should probably get behind removing anchoring because its the same basic theory of giving up control of your ship to one person.

    Basically theres nothing really to sweat about a fleet of worms, because its a t1 frigate fleet with t1 resists, and at that point you skip the drones and warp a smart bomb fitted Rokh into the fight and then collect a bunch of 20 million isk drones.

    Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
    Silvetica Dian
    Imperial Shipment
    Amarr Empire
    #796 - 2014-02-26 19:47:10 UTC
    Silivar Karkun wrote:
    obligue me, im gonna keep posting until there's a general concensus, but those **** bonuses in the OP need to be taken off


    The changes proposed in OP are great. will make some underused ships very popular.
    Your suggestions demonstrate why you are not a games designer.
    i hereby join the chorus asking you to stop.
    everyone likes the new ships.

    Money at its root is a form of rationing. When the richest 85 people have as much wealth as the poorest 3.5 billion (50% of humanity) it is clear where the source of poverty is. http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jan/20/trickle-down-economics-broken-promise-richest-85
    Yankunytjatjara
    Ministry of War
    Amarr Empire
    #797 - 2014-02-26 19:51:16 UTC
    CCP Rise wrote:
    Hi guys sorry for the space between posts, I wasn't in the office today, and I'm still not Sad

    There's two things I can say, one is that we are going to change the Succubus role bonus damage from 125% to 150% to keep the damage potential the same as before. Thanks someone in the thread for pointing that out.

    Second, I'll try to put together a longer post tomorrow addressing the conversations around the missile bonus on the Worm and the web bonus on the Cruor. For now I have to leave you with just this though =/

    Thanks

    There's a major problem laying in wait of the changes as you put them: the DD with its 6 eq. small turrets is used because while being costly, it can kill something and get out before the blob lands. The dram is used because it can get out even without killing.

    So, the changes to the laser frigs, not affecting their damage output, won't change the main issue these frigs have.

    Please consider raising all role damage bonuses to 200%, mimicking the DD one. This makes the class balanced as a whole, gives all frigs a similar dps, but still keeps their diversity because each of them has the racial damage. Nerf a little bit here and there the soft attributes for balance.

    (You could even tweak the worm giving it 1 more drone and a 200% damage bonus instead of 300, removing again the missile damage: this would give the entire class an elegant 200% role bonus)

    My solo pvp video: Yankunytjude... That attitude! Solo/small gang proposal: Ship Velocity Vectors
    Justin Cody
    War Firm
    #798 - 2014-02-26 20:04:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Justin Cody
    Silivar Karkun wrote:
    Justin Cody wrote:
    STUFF
    Bertrand Butler wrote:
    STUFF


    what about this then:

    SUCCUBUS

    Amarr Frigate Bonus:
    7.5% bonus to Small Energy Turret tracking speed and Optimal Range

    Caldari Frigate Bonus:
    20% to Tracking Disruptor effectivenes and Optimal Range

    Role Bonus:
    200% to small energy turret damage

    slot layout: 3H/5M/2L one aditional med for putting the tracking disruptor, the rest of the meds are for tank/prop mods or whatever.....

    the 7,5% percent bonus mitigates the drawbacks of T2 crystals, the 200% damage bonus gives the DPS of 4 turrets, the 20% bonus to tracking disruption means double the range and double the ******* of your enemy, it cannot brawl nor kite you....


    I like it. Of course I'd like it most as 3/5/3 since you don't have a drone bay. But I'll take that depending on base stats for shield and speed and agility.
    Justin Cody
    War Firm
    #799 - 2014-02-26 20:09:23 UTC
    The real problem with a shield tanking laser boat is that it needs both high cpu and grid compared to other vessels to compete.
    Windman Advena
    Facehoof
    #800 - 2014-02-26 20:10:31 UTC
    WORM

    Gallente Frigate Bonus:
    10% bonus to light combat drone damage and hitpoints (was 5m3 Drone Bay Capacity per level)

    Caldari Frigate Bonus:
    4% bonus to all shield resistances

    Role Bonus:
    100% bonus to light combat drone damage and hitpoints (was 50% bonus to Rocket and Light Missile velocity)

    ________
    6 effective drones will be Ok. (about 150 dps at any distance you like)
    With fitting&speed buff Worm will be nise.
    Just forget about missle bonus. It's not a missle ship.


    CRUOR

    Amarr Frigate Bonus:
    40% bonus to Energy Vampire and Energy Neutralizer range
    only range

    Minmatar Frigate Bonus:
    20% bonus to Stasis Webifier range (was 10% bonus to Stasis Webifier effectiveness)

    Role Bonus:
    100% bonus to Small Energy Turret damage
    note: Energy Vampires operate as though your capacitor is empty (this wording is work in progress)

    and do not buff speed
    ________
    From frigate to BS neut range bonus fades but strength bonus adds. All 3 ships will be slow, but powerfull if you can keep enemy out of scram range.