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[Kronos] Pirate Faction Frigates

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Silivar Karkun
Doomheim
#761 - 2014-02-26 16:45:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Silivar Karkun
then i propose the following:

CRUOR

Amarr Frigate Bonus:
4% to all armor resistances

Minmatar Frigate Bonus:
20% to statis webifier and energy vampire effectivenes

Role Bonus:
100% to energy turret damage

note: Energy Vampires operate as though your capacitor is empty (this wording is work in progress)

max velocity increased from 308 to 340-350 even 360 (?)

the original blood raider doctrine was about draining and webbing the enemy while killing it with short ranged weapons, the bonuses above are based in that doctrine, 20% more resistances allows to get a bit more of tank at close range, while the 20% bonus to stasis webifier and energy vampire bonuses keep the enemy in a stop.

the drawback is that you have to get close to the enemy, in order to do so the ship gets a bit more of max velocity....
Justin Cody
War Firm
#762 - 2014-02-26 16:49:52 UTC
Bertrand Butler wrote:
Some points about the Succubus.

1. The new role bonus combines both the old role and the race damage bonuses into one. You will get exactly the same DPS, learn to read bonuses.

2. The AB buff together with the 37.5% tracking bonus will result in an AB kiter that can dictate range with beams that track like pulses and mitigate damage via sig tanking.

3. If you fit the ship for scram brawl with pulses, it will still retain the weather gauge with one web applied on it against AC or blaster brawlers while hitting solidly with scorch in the OH range.

Overall, its a very interesting take on a hull that was plain garbage before the re-balance. Stop whining and start adapting your gameplay to the hull, not the opposite.


1) Yes DPS is identical and also crap
2) Yes that seems to be the intended meta but with crap dps its kinda meh
3) Pulses? It will die quickly. Terrible ship to brawl with.
4) the AB bonus is intriguing but without an agility bonus alongside it...or an optimal range bonus to make it truly useful for kiting as is suggested...it will of course be lack luster.

The Succubus is still the worst of the faction frigates. Out DPS'd, out maneuvered, out-bonused (by ships witth actual combat bonuses like long webs and nos/neut efffectiveness, web effectiveness, drone dps and missile damage bonii or just plain ole better (Dramiel)).

It offers nothing in terms of small gang or fleet combat that other ships don't do more effectively. Kite? Worm/Dram even rail daredevil. Hell use a slicer cause at least it gets an optimal range bonus.

Brawl? The same. This ship is one of the most cap intensive ships with no payoff for it. Lasers **** cap into space. the cruor at least partially overcomes this with its spiffy new nos bonus. The Worm? Not cap intensive unless you try to active tank it. The Daredevil? Still the same...great defensive frigate/assault ship. The Dramiel is a great vanguard frigate/faction assault frigate.

what should sansha do? Massive concentration on laser and shield systems. The damage bonus should be twice what it is (200%) with only two turrets (2=4 instead of 2=3.5) or something. Forget sansha AB speed, give it large base shield HP and a sig reduction bonus per level like an interceptor.

Faction frigates are kind of hybrids of t2 and t1 ships. The faction bonuses are kind of like combining assault frigate and electronic attack ship bonuses in hulls that have assault frigate and interceptor hybrid properties.

Of course the fact that sansha NPC rats still armor tank doesn't help the confused nature of sansha hulls in general. Probably should have combined the laser damage bonus with tracking disruptor bonuses making it stronger in a 1v1 fight than say a sentinel would be...and be more of a dangerous opponent in a 1v1 encounter.

Oh wow 10mn version can do 5K! who gives a fark. unless it has stats proportionate to a 100mn Tengu with 400 compensation for rigs. At least then you might be able to fit some pulses and scorch and run around ninja'ing in and out of webs immune to scrams. But since it won't have the requisite 15K ehp for a frigate to do that...its useless. Not enough bulk shield...no ability to do dps. might as well fly a harpy or hawk to be honest. This offers no real advantage
Silivar Karkun
Doomheim
#763 - 2014-02-26 16:56:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Silivar Karkun
Justin Cody wrote:
Bertrand Butler wrote:
Some points about the Succubus.

1. The new role bonus combines both the old role and the race damage bonuses into one. You will get exactly the same DPS, learn to read bonuses.

2. The AB buff together with the 37.5% tracking bonus will result in an AB kiter that can dictate range with beams that track like pulses and mitigate damage via sig tanking.

3. If you fit the ship for scram brawl with pulses, it will still retain the weather gauge with one web applied on it against AC or blaster brawlers while hitting solidly with scorch in the OH range.

Overall, its a very interesting take on a hull that was plain garbage before the re-balance. Stop whining and start adapting your gameplay to the hull, not the opposite.


1) Yes DPS is identical and also crap
2) Yes that seems to be the intended meta but with crap dps its kinda meh
3) Pulses? It will die quickly. Terrible ship to brawl with.
4) the AB bonus is intriguing but without an agility bonus alongside it...or an optimal range bonus to make it truly useful for kiting as is suggested...it will of course be lack luster.

The Succubus is still the worst of the faction frigates. Out DPS'd, out maneuvered, out-bonused (by ships witth actual combat bonuses like long webs and nos/neut efffectiveness, web effectiveness, drone dps and missile damage bonii or just plain ole better (Dramiel)).

It offers nothing in terms of small gang or fleet combat that other ships don't do more effectively. Kite? Worm/Dram even rail daredevil. Hell use a slicer cause at least it gets an optimal range bonus.

Brawl? The same. This ship is one of the most cap intensive ships with no payoff for it. Lasers **** cap into space. the cruor at least partially overcomes this with its spiffy new nos bonus. The Worm? Not cap intensive unless you try to active tank it. The Daredevil? Still the same...great defensive frigate/assault ship. The Dramiel is a great vanguard frigate/faction assault frigate.

what should sansha do? Massive concentration on laser and shield systems. The damage bonus should be twice what it is (200%) with only two turrets (2=4 instead of 2=3.5) or something. Forget sansha AB speed, give it large base shield HP and a sig reduction bonus per level like an interceptor.

Faction frigates are kind of hybrids of t2 and t1 ships. The faction bonuses are kind of like combining assault frigate and electronic attack ship bonuses in hulls that have assault frigate and interceptor hybrid properties.

Of course the fact that sansha NPC rats still armor tank doesn't help the confused nature of sansha hulls in general. Probably should have combined the laser damage bonus with tracking disruptor bonuses making it stronger in a 1v1 fight than say a sentinel would be...and be more of a dangerous opponent in a 1v1 encounter.

Oh wow 10mn version can do 5K! who gives a fark. unless it has stats proportionate to a 100mn Tengu with 400 compensation for rigs. At least then you might be able to fit some pulses and scorch and run around ninja'ing in and out of webs immune to scrams. But since it won't have the requisite 15K ehp for a frigate to do that...its useless. Not enough bulk shield...no ability to do dps. might as well fly a harpy or hawk to be honest. This offers no real advantage


what about this then:

SUCCUBUS

Amarr Frigate Bonus:
7.5% bonus to Small Energy Turret tracking speed and Optimal Range

Caldari Frigate Bonus:
20% to Tracking Disruptor effectivenes and Optimal Range

Role Bonus:
200% to small energy turret damage

slot layout: 3H/5M/2L one aditional med for putting the tracking disruptor, the rest of the meds are for tank/prop mods or whatever.....

the 7,5% percent bonus mitigates the drawbacks of T2 crystals, the 200% damage bonus gives the DPS of 4 turrets, the 20% bonus to tracking disruption means double the range and double the ******* of your enemy, it cannot brawl nor kite you....
Dii minores
AirGuard
LowSechnaya Sholupen
#764 - 2014-02-26 16:58:28 UTC

CRUOR

Amarr Frigate Bonus:
15% bonus to Energy Vampire and Energy Neutralizer effectiveness

Minmatar Frigate Bonus:
20% bonus to Stasis Webifier range (was 10% bonus to Stasis Webifier effectiveness)

Role Bonus:
100% bonus to Small Energy Turret damage
note: Energy Vampires operate as though your capacitor is empty (this wording is work in progress)


Slot layout: 4H, 3M, 3L; 2 turrets, 0 launchers
Fittings: 50 PWG(-7), 140 CPU(+3)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 480(-103) / 740(+83) / 580(-2)
Capacitor (amount / recharge / cap per second) : 470 / 205000 (-29375) / 2.24 (+.23)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 330(+22) / 3.6 / 1003000 / 5.01s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 10(+10) / 10(+10)
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 33km(+8km) / 760 / 6
Sensor strength: 12
Signature radius: 35


From the new CRUOR, with its new bonuses I start to feel sick, give him more PWG + 1 turrets + 1 H slot.

Then he will be a worthy contender DAREDEVIL!!!!!!
Silivar Karkun
Doomheim
#765 - 2014-02-26 17:11:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Silivar Karkun
now that i see it:

CRUOR

Amarr Frigate Bonus:
20% to energy neutralizer and energy vampire effectivenes and optimal range

Caldari Frigate Bonus:
20% to stasis webifier optimal range and effectivenes

Role Bonus:
200% to small energy turret damage

slot layout: 3H/3M/4L, 2 turrets, 0 launchers

basically, the ship bonuses make it have 4 effective turrets, with the power of 2 neuts/vamps and 2 webs, 4 lows allow to give it a bit more of armor, if not more firepower....
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#766 - 2014-02-26 17:17:24 UTC
Silivar Karkun wrote:
now that i see it:

CRUOR

Amarr Frigate Bonus:
20% to energy neutralizer and energy vampire effectivenes and optimal range

Caldari Frigate Bonus:
20% to stasis webifier optimal range and effectivenes

Role Bonus:
200% to small energy turret damage

slot layout: 3H/3M/4L, 2 turrets, 0 launchers

basically, the ship bonuses make it have 4 effective turrets, with the power of 2 neuts/vamps and 2 webs, 4 lows allow to give it a bit more of armor, if not more firepower....

Refuse the bonus to effectiveness on the nos and no the dual range/effectiveness of the webs. The range itself is a strong trait and the effectiveness you suggested is 100% reduction in speed. Pick one or the other and if you pick web effectiveness the best you can argue is 90%.
Medalyn Isis
Doomheim
#767 - 2014-02-26 17:21:15 UTC
Justin Cody wrote:
Bertrand Butler wrote:
Some points about the Succubus.

1. The new role bonus combines both the old role and the race damage bonuses into one. You will get exactly the same DPS, learn to read bonuses.

2. The AB buff together with the 37.5% tracking bonus will result in an AB kiter that can dictate range with beams that track like pulses and mitigate damage via sig tanking.

3. If you fit the ship for scram brawl with pulses, it will still retain the weather gauge with one web applied on it against AC or blaster brawlers while hitting solidly with scorch in the OH range.

Overall, its a very interesting take on a hull that was plain garbage before the re-balance. Stop whining and start adapting your gameplay to the hull, not the opposite.


1) Yes DPS is identical and also crap

Actually, dps is not identical, it is lower by 10%. Bonuses are multiplied together not added.
Silivar Karkun
Doomheim
#768 - 2014-02-26 17:23:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Silivar Karkun
Rowells wrote:
Silivar Karkun wrote:
now that i see it:

CRUOR

Amarr Frigate Bonus:
20% to energy neutralizer and energy vampire effectivenes and optimal range

Caldari Frigate Bonus:
20% to stasis webifier optimal range and effectivenes

Role Bonus:
200% to small energy turret damage

slot layout: 3H/3M/4L, 2 turrets, 0 launchers

basically, the ship bonuses make it have 4 effective turrets, with the power of 2 neuts/vamps and 2 webs, 4 lows allow to give it a bit more of armor, if not more firepower....

Refuse the bonus to effectiveness on the nos and no the dual range/effectiveness of the webs. The range itself is a strong trait and the effectiveness you suggested is 100% reduction in speed. Pick one or the other and if you pick web effectiveness the best you can argue is 90%.


CRUOR

Amarr Frigate Bonus:
20% to energy neutralizer and energy vampire effectivenes

Caldari Frigate Bonus:
20% to stasis webifier optimal range

Role Bonus:
200% to small energy turret damage

slot layout: 3H/3M/4L, 2 turrets, 0 launchers

like this?, 100% draining power, so counts as 2 nos/neuts but no aditional range, 100% bonus to the range of webifiers but no aditional jamming power
Silivar Karkun
Doomheim
#769 - 2014-02-26 17:25:20 UTC
the difference is not too much from this one and the one proposed by Rise, just 35% more draining power, more damage and more tank...
Medalyn Isis
Doomheim
#770 - 2014-02-26 17:25:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Medalyn Isis
Silivar Karkun wrote:
the 200% damage bonus gives the DPS of 4 turrets.

People need to stop with all the incorrect mathematics before interjecting into balance discussions.

A 200% bonus on 2 turrets would be the equivalent of 8 turrets.

A 150% bonus is the equivalent of the current unchanged cruor's two damage bonuses put together.

The proposed version is doing 10% less dps than the Cruor currently available on Tranquility right now.
Itago Gemulus
Station Spinners United
#771 - 2014-02-26 17:28:03 UTC
Medalyn Isis wrote:
Silivar Karkun wrote:
the 200% damage bonus gives the DPS of 4 turrets.

People need to stop with all the incorrect mathematics before interjecting into balance discussions.

A 200% bonus on 2 turrets would be the equivalent of 8 turrets.

A 150% bonus is the equivalent of the current unchanged cruor's two damage bonuses put together.


I agree that people need to stop with this incorrect math...

2 turrets with 200% bonus = 6 turrets not 8!

2+(2*200%) = 2+4 = 6
Silivar Karkun
Doomheim
#772 - 2014-02-26 17:29:09 UTC
Medalyn Isis wrote:
Silivar Karkun wrote:
the 200% damage bonus gives the DPS of 4 turrets.

People need to stop with all the incorrect mathematics before interjecting into balance discussions.

A 200% bonus on 2 turrets would be the equivalent of 8 turrets.

A 150% bonus is the equivalent of the current unchanged cruor's two damage bonuses put together.

The proposed version is doing 10% less dps than the Cruor currently available on Tranquility right now.


the DareDevil has 2 turret hardpoints too and a 200%, this means that it would have the DPS of 8 turrets? i dont think so.....in that case the DD has too much raw firepower.....
Silivar Karkun
Doomheim
#773 - 2014-02-26 17:30:29 UTC
Itago Gemulus wrote:
Medalyn Isis wrote:
Silivar Karkun wrote:
the 200% damage bonus gives the DPS of 4 turrets.

People need to stop with all the incorrect mathematics before interjecting into balance discussions.

A 200% bonus on 2 turrets would be the equivalent of 8 turrets.

A 150% bonus is the equivalent of the current unchanged cruor's two damage bonuses put together.


I agree that people need to stop with this incorrect math...

2 turrets with 200% bonus = 6 turrets not 8!

2+(2*200%) = 2+4 = 6


hmmmm in that case i need to change it back to 100%....
Medalyn Isis
Doomheim
#774 - 2014-02-26 17:30:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Medalyn Isis
Itago Gemulus wrote:
Medalyn Isis wrote:
Silivar Karkun wrote:
the 200% damage bonus gives the DPS of 4 turrets.

People need to stop with all the incorrect mathematics before interjecting into balance discussions.

A 200% bonus on 2 turrets would be the equivalent of 8 turrets.

A 150% bonus is the equivalent of the current unchanged cruor's two damage bonuses put together.


I agree that people need to stop with this incorrect math...

2 turrets with 200% bonus = 6 turrets not 8!

2+(2*200%) = 2+4 = 6

Yes sorry, It should have been 6 turrets. That is my bad mathematics now.

Also I meant to say the Succubus is doing 10% less damage, not the Cruor.
Silivar Karkun
Doomheim
#775 - 2014-02-26 17:32:32 UTC
CRUOR

Amarr Frigate Bonus:
20% to energy neutralizer and energy vampire effectivenes

Caldari Frigate Bonus:
20% to stasis webifier optimal range

Role Bonus:
100% to small energy turret damage

slot layout: 3H/3M/4L, 2 turrets, 0 launchers

bad applied mathematics, this should be the final proposition:

the Cruor gets a 5% increase in its power drain bonus, so at lvl V skills you get the power of 2 neuts/vamps, the ship looses a highslot, and gets an aditional lowslots, so it gets aditional armor tank.......or more firepower if you want...
Aglais
Ice-Storm
#776 - 2014-02-26 17:34:32 UTC
Dav Varan wrote:

Really wouldn't wants to fly a multi million isk frig that has such terrible mobility and will get kited to death by a couple of scrub condors.


How about making the worm a fast drone kiter rather than a slow drone brawler.
5 drones is also more fun than 2.



A "couple of Scrub Condors" are going to get eviscerated by these drones. The Worm has near AF levels of tank, and it's drones are going to be ridiculously powerful and survivable. Furthermore- the Worm as a shield tanking missile/drone platform, that operates distinctly at close range, fills a role that does not currently exist in the game. Two or three of these will not be easily killed if their pilots know what they're doing. Not only that, but it's velocity is increasing, it's still really light... It's not going to be nearly as bad as you think.

Also what's with all the "the fun of the worm comes from being able to launch and micromanage five drones" people?
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#777 - 2014-02-26 17:39:06 UTC
Aglais wrote:
Dav Varan wrote:

Really wouldn't wants to fly a multi million isk frig that has such terrible mobility and will get kited to death by a couple of scrub condors.


How about making the worm a fast drone kiter rather than a slow drone brawler.
5 drones is also more fun than 2.



A "couple of Scrub Condors" are going to get eviscerated by these drones. The Worm has near AF levels of tank, and it's drones are going to be ridiculously powerful and survivable. Furthermore- the Worm as a shield tanking missile/drone platform, that operates distinctly at close range, fills a role that does not currently exist in the game. Two or three of these will not be easily killed if their pilots know what they're doing. Not only that, but it's velocity is increasing, it's still really light... It's not going to be nearly as bad as you think.

Also what's with all the "the fun of the worm comes from being able to launch and micromanage five drones" people?


drones cannot kill kiting ships
CCP Rise
C C P
C C P Alliance
#778 - 2014-02-26 17:39:29 UTC
Hi guys sorry for the space between posts, I wasn't in the office today, and I'm still not Sad

There's two things I can say, one is that we are going to change the Succubus role bonus damage from 125% to 150% to keep the damage potential the same as before. Thanks someone in the thread for pointing that out.

Second, I'll try to put together a longer post tomorrow addressing the conversations around the missile bonus on the Worm and the web bonus on the Cruor. For now I have to leave you with just this though =/

Thanks

@ccp_rise
Medalyn Isis
Doomheim
#779 - 2014-02-26 17:43:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Medalyn Isis
Any chance on getting your thoughts Rise on the contradiction between an amarr and caldari bonused ship getting an afterburner bonus, this bonus would be more suited to minmatar based blood raider ships. Disregarding the lore reasons, another factor is also that the high signatured Sansha ships do not synergise to well with a speed tanking afterburner based ship.

Just to add, the Cruor range bonus on the webs as others have also pointed out may need looking into.

CCP Rise wrote:
Hi guys sorry for the space between posts, I wasn't in the office today, and I'm still not Sad
There's two things I can say, one is that we are going to change the Succubus role bonus damage from 125% to 150% to keep the damage potential the same as before. Thanks someone in the thread for pointing that out.


Also great to hear that, you had me worried for a moment, but I had a feeling it must have been a typo.

Look forward to your replies anyway, and good changes so far.
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#780 - 2014-02-26 18:01:14 UTC  |  Edited by: TrouserDeagle
CCP Rise wrote:
Hi guys sorry for the space between posts, I wasn't in the office today, and I'm still not Sad

There's two things I can say, one is that we are going to change the Succubus role bonus damage from 125% to 150% to keep the damage potential the same as before. Thanks someone in the thread for pointing that out.

Second, I'll try to put together a longer post tomorrow addressing the conversations around the missile bonus on the Worm and the web bonus on the Cruor. For now I have to leave you with just this though =/

Thanks


please consider dropping the web thing from the bloodraider ships, bringing them down to minimum mids, and giving them resist bonuses and more lows. they do too much atm.