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[Rubicon 1.3] Remote Sensor Dampeners and the Celestis

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seth Hendar
I love you miners
#41 - 2014-02-26 16:25:59 UTC
Batelle wrote:
Goldensaver wrote:
Batelle wrote:
seth Hendar wrote:
stuff


Whoops. See, I thought they had also gotten that buff, but for some reason it wasn't showing on the site i was looking at. Oops

EVElopedia never seems to get updated, sadly.


That would be normal, but its even stranger. Evelopedia is correct on this one, but eve-uni wiki is wrong!!!! Shocked

https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Arazu
http://wiki.eveuniversity.org/Arazu

note that before posting the evelopedia content, i checked in evehq to be sure said content was up to date, because of the more or less up to date status of the various out of game wiki's
seth Hendar
I love you miners
#42 - 2014-02-26 16:29:16 UTC  |  Edited by: seth Hendar
Batelle wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Maximus Andendare wrote:
Wasn't the Celestis' optimal range bonus to damps put in as a "fleet ship" counter to a Blackbird's ECM Range, so that each of them can ewar from roughly the same distance?

By nerfing the range on damps, won't that just lead to 100km+ Blackbirds going unchecked?


The term "Race to the Bottom" applies.

fozzie hates EWAR.
Less ships blow up when EWAR is onfield, as it directly inhibits applied DPS.
It does not matter that it differentiates the small gang players and smart players from the F1 monkeys (yes, I am aware of the irony of the large blobs using Celestis fleets).

In CCP's world, anything that increases the amount of ships blowing up is a good thing. (of course null sec cartel NAP's and NIP's are exempt from that concept at CCP).


Completely ignores the post he quoted about blackbirds... check
Shows up to personally attack Fozzie and his motives every time he makes a post... check
Complains about small gang getting nerfed while acknowledging that its actually a blob nerf... Cognative Dissonance check.
"nullsec cartels"... check
claims nullsec cartels are exempt from the basic rules (of ship explosion).... absurdity check.

well, regarding the "small gagn vs big blob" thingy, the issue is that any buff to small gang will buff even more the big blob, and any nerf to the big blob will hit the small gang harder, because said big blob can spare a few pilots in specific "out of meta" ships to compensate, with almost no impact on the overall fleet capability.

small gang, devoting even 1 pilot to overcome a nerf, means 1 less logi, 1 less DPS boat, when it comes to a 5 or 10 man gang, it is huge.

tbh, no real solution to this i'm afraid
Servant's Lord
The Untraceable
M A R A K U G A
#43 - 2014-02-26 16:36:56 UTC
So instead of being able to damp from 250km with 250km lock range, I'll be forced to only damp from 200km.

How sad.

I don't who designs your ships/modules, but I don't think cruisers should be balanced like this, its just stupid.

[Celestis, this is broken]
Type-D Attenuation Signal Augmentation
Internal Force Field Array I
Type-D Attenuation Signal Augmentation
Type-D Attenuation Signal Augmentation
Type-D Attenuation Signal Augmentation

Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I
Small Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 400
Phased Muon Sensor Disruptor I, Targeting Range Dampening Script
Phased Muon Sensor Disruptor I, Targeting Range Dampening Script
Phased Muon Sensor Disruptor I, Targeting Range Dampening Script

Small EMP Smartbomb II
Small EMP Smartbomb II
Small EMP Smartbomb II

Medium Particle Dispersion Projector I
Medium Particle Dispersion Projector II
Medium Particle Dispersion Projector II

Hornet EC-300 x5
Hornet EC-300 x5

damps at 160+135 for 71% reduced range PER DAMP with 235km lock range under mindlinked info boosts and all 5 skills at present.

Now how much is the nerf going to effect this? Not much.

Frigates should have range bonuses for more range, but less effectiveness. Cruisers should have strength bonuses for more strength, but less range to account for their increased tank.

Why does this only apply on some of the ewar hulls? Crucifier has a tracking disruption bonus and can tracking disrupt out at 200km+ np with similar bonuses and rigs applied. Yet the arbitrator is forced to get close with abysmal locking range and no range bonus for its ewar.

Get some consistency and please PROPERLY balance your ship hulls. Inconsistencies and random brokenness are not quirks, it's just bad game design.

A cruiser having absurd range AND strength that reach out to pre-pre-pre nerf old school ROOK levels is pretty stupid.

Info links do exist and can be incredibly broken in certain situations - especially in conjunction with certain range rigs which also exist.

These need to be taken into account when balancing, otherwise you're gonna end up with some imbalanced stuff like what we have now.
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
#44 - 2014-02-26 16:49:25 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Maximus Andendare wrote:
Wasn't the Celestis' optimal range bonus to damps put in as a "fleet ship" counter to a Blackbird's ECM Range, so that each of them can ewar from roughly the same distance?

By nerfing the range on damps, won't that just lead to 100km+ Blackbirds going unchecked?


The term "Race to the Bottom" applies.

fozzie hates EWAR.
Less ships blow up when EWAR is onfield, as it directly inhibits applied DPS.
It does not matter that it differentiates the small gang players and smart players from the F1 monkeys (yes, I am aware of the irony of the large blobs using Celestis fleets).

In CCP's world, anything that increases the amount of ships blowing up is a good thing. (of course null sec cartel NAP's and NIP's are exempt from that concept at CCP).

What I am really worrying about is the part of the dev's comment about laying the groundwork for future changes. That comment really worries me.

man it must be tough to keep your internal narrative straight

"ccp hates it when ships blow up, ccp loves it when ships blow up"
ArmyOfMe
Stay Frosty.
A Band Apart.
#45 - 2014-02-26 16:50:56 UTC
TrouserDeagle wrote:
nerf ecm

Not empty quoting

GM Guard > I must ask you not to use the petition option like this again but i personally would finish the chicken sandwich first so it won´t go to waste. The spaghetti will keep and you can use it the next time you get hungry. Best regards.
Ali Aras
Nobody in Local
Deepwater Hooligans
#46 - 2014-02-26 16:56:22 UTC
Maximus Andendare wrote:
Wasn't the Celestis' optimal range bonus to damps put in as a "fleet ship" counter to a Blackbird's ECM Range, so that each of them can ewar from roughly the same distance?

By nerfing the range on damps, won't that just lead to 100km+ Blackbirds going unchecked?

The damp range was actually *longer* than the ECM range (or any other ewar range!) and this brings it more in line. Good change, +1 etc.

http://warp-to-sun.tumblr.com -- my blog
Ryu Chaos
Noir.
Shadow Cartel
#47 - 2014-02-26 17:03:09 UTC
Maximus Andendare wrote:
Wasn't the Celestis' optimal range bonus to damps put in as a "fleet ship" counter to a Blackbird's ECM Range, so that each of them can ewar from roughly the same distance?

By nerfing the range on damps, won't that just lead to 100km+ Blackbirds going unchecked?



NOPE.

Blackbird has a chance of Jamming a ship, you need to fit rigs/distortion amplifiers etc, and you must count the opponents use of ECCM, his sensor strength, you need different jammer with each race etc etc

Celestis damps. You can have a sebo, you can have boosts, it doesnt matter. Even above its optimal it will damp you, if its optimal and bellow it will damp you 100% no matter what. 4 Dampeners, to damp everyone (except a handfull of ships) no matter the race, no matter the ship, no matter the situation. The only counter to damps, is more damps.

@RyuChaos_
Luscius Uta
#48 - 2014-02-26 17:17:55 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:

'Broker' Remote Sensor Dampener I 36000 30000
'Executive' Remote Sensor Dampener I 36000 30000
Shadow Serpentis Remote Sensor Dampener 36000 30000



Fozzie, since you're such a workaholic who likes to balance things that most people didn't considered unbalanced to begin with, you could be kind enough to fix those broken mods who give no advantage over meta 4 or T2...if you even think that something should be done when it comes to useless mods, of course.

Workarounds are not bugfixes.
Vance Armistice
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#49 - 2014-02-26 17:21:12 UTC
CCP Fozzie with this change you have dampened my enthusiasm to play the Celestis.... Cool


p.s. nice change
Kaerakh
Obscure Joke Implied
#50 - 2014-02-26 17:28:55 UTC
Nerfing an already under used ewar system makes me more likely to continue to under use an already under used system.

Schrodinger's Hot Dropper

The Fate of Forum Alts

Guaranteed Success
Goldensaver
Maraque Enterprises
Just let it happen
#51 - 2014-02-26 17:34:13 UTC
Kaerakh wrote:
Nerfing an already under used ewar system makes me more likely to continue to under use an already under used system.

Arguably one of the best EWar systems.
Buggers up Logi more effectively and with more consistency than ECM.
Actually has a real fleet comp based around it (**** You Fleet).
Is an underused EWar system.

Wat?
Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc
Tactical-Retreat
#52 - 2014-02-26 17:36:14 UTC
Good change! I'm curious to see your "future plans" for E-war.

Signature Tanking Best Tanking

[Ex-F] CEO - Eve-guides.fr

Ultimate Citadel Guide - 2016 EVE Career Chart
ViolentDesire
78934223
#53 - 2014-02-26 17:39:34 UTC
Goldensaver wrote:

Of course, people hate the **** out of ECM so I won't be surprised if rabid crazies start ranting about how the Blackbird should have only 20km forcing it to close to use the range, and upon activation of ECM mods, the ship should self destruct.


Sounds good to me.

Not that it would make a huge difference, but you should probably be able to target the ECM ship even if jammed.
Yankunytjatjara
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#54 - 2014-02-26 17:42:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Yankunytjatjara
Fozzie, why don't you perform an effectiveness balance pass dropping effectiveness from the mods and raising it on specialized ships to keep them equal.

In this way, ewar specialized ships have the same effect, but the mods on other ships would drop a bit in effectiveness. This would help the frig warfare quite a bit - basically a nerf to the damp condor and other similar monstrosities without affecting specialized damp ships.

My solo pvp video: Yankunytjude... That attitude! Solo/small gang proposal: Ship Velocity Vectors
Goldensaver
Maraque Enterprises
Just let it happen
#55 - 2014-02-26 17:45:51 UTC
ViolentDesire wrote:
Goldensaver wrote:

Of course, people hate the **** out of ECM so I won't be surprised if rabid crazies start ranting about how the Blackbird should have only 20km forcing it to close to use the range, and upon activation of ECM mods, the ship should self destruct.


Sounds good to me.

Not that it would make a huge difference, but you should probably be able to target the ECM ship even if jammed.

Personally I think this would be a fair change to it. It's been brought up a lot before though and they've never done it. Then you can at least do what you can against the enemy who is inhibiting you. Downsides include the Celestis breaking Blackbirds because even if the Blackbird jams the Celestis, the Celestis can range damp the Blackbird (assumed at long range) forcing it to drop lock and then getting full capability back.
Akrasjel Lanate
Immemorial Coalescence Administration
Immemorial Coalescence
#56 - 2014-02-26 18:13:51 UTC
Michael Harari wrote:
Will 1.3 be out before or after NEO?

Apart from that, +1, good iterating

Have you considered jacking the cap use up on ewar?

NEO II starts this weekend so dont think so

CEO of Lanate Industries

Citizen of Solitude
Soldarius
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#57 - 2014-02-26 19:28:57 UTC
Taleden wrote:
I know everybody likes to pretend that EVE has no PvE content whatsoever, but as long as you're looking at damping and ewar already, would it be so hard to make NPC ewar obey the same stacking penalties and effective ranges as player ewar? Missions against Serpentis, for example, are just a royal tedious pain because they can damp from 80km away, and it only takes 2 or 3 of them to cut your target range to 20km. And that doesn't even make those missions *hard* per se, it just makes them irritating, which has no gameplay value.


Have you ever been triple damped by a properly skilled player in a bonused ship? Your Tengu wrecks for... oh wait. I can't lock outside of 10km.

http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY
Irya Boone
The Scope
#58 - 2014-02-26 19:34:46 UTC
can you tell me if you plan to remove gallente from the game or what ?

after nerfing the incursus,
after nerfing the dominix , now this ? why don't you just remove gallente ships from the game ?

CCP it's time to remove Off Grid Boost and Put Them on Killmail too, add Logi on killmails .... Open that damn door !!

you shall all bow and pray BoB
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#59 - 2014-02-26 19:36:00 UTC
Irya Boone wrote:
can you tell me if you plan to remove gallente from the game or what ?

after nerfing the incursus,
after nerfing the dominix , now this ? why don't you just remove gallente ships from the game ?


lol
Callduron
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#60 - 2014-02-26 20:38:07 UTC
Powers Sa wrote:
RIP Maulus


The Celestis is getting double nerfed and the Maulus only suffering the general nerf to damps.

I write http://stabbedup.blogspot.co.uk/

I post on reddit as /u/callduron.