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[Rubicon 1.3] T1 Frigate and Cruiser Balance Pass

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Author
Igor Nappi
Doomheim
#61 - 2014-02-26 15:30:17 UTC
Punisher still remains useless outside of the super niche use as a durable platform for a single scram and nothing more.

Furthermore, I think that links must be removed from the game.

KiithSoban
Mackies Raiders
Wild Geese.
#62 - 2014-02-26 15:38:40 UTC  |  Edited by: KiithSoban
Psssttt...

The Aug has crazy high sensor strength. I get more than 100 with my LG implants. The others can't contend. I suggest a massive base sensor strength Nerf as opposed to removing the mid.

I'm super reluctant to say this because the Aug is my favorite ship in the game. Thank you so much for the "mini guard". it has really changed the face of lowsec roams and just logistics in general.

I want to see logi appear on killmails! (by just repping)  See CSM "reasonable things"

Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#63 - 2014-02-26 15:47:15 UTC
Jaro Essa wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:

VEXOR:
-10 m/s velocity
+0.03 inertia
-210000 mass

This seems like a bit of a double whammy, a very slight nerf to gank-focused blaster fits coupled with a slight nerf to 1600mm plate fits. Very small nerfs, but still. Is the intention to increase the differentiation between the Vexor and the Thorax?


It indeed looks like a nerf.
The Vexor is a brawler boat. It has to to close on its target before releasing drones (Ogre's fly slower than the ship does). To lower its speed is just bad idea. Though with the drop in mass, I am curious what the MwD speed looks like.
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#64 - 2014-02-26 15:55:00 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Jaro Essa wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:

VEXOR:
-10 m/s velocity
+0.03 inertia
-210000 mass

This seems like a bit of a double whammy, a very slight nerf to gank-focused blaster fits coupled with a slight nerf to 1600mm plate fits. Very small nerfs, but still. Is the intention to increase the differentiation between the Vexor and the Thorax?


It indeed looks like a nerf.
The Vexor is a brawler boat. It has to to close on its target before releasing drones (Ogre's fly slower than the ship does). To lower its speed is just bad idea. Though with the drop in mass, I am curious what the MwD speed looks like.


a vexor should either be using medium drones or it should be using sentries (50 bandwidth and 15% combat drone damage per level pls ccp). heavy drones are just too much of a joke to consider outside very limited circumstances, even with silly 37.5% speed and tracking bonuses.
Naomi Anthar
#65 - 2014-02-26 15:57:43 UTC
First of all : you have my gratitude for keeping changes to ships that still need it.

Now some ideas you propose are cool.

But i still think either tormentor or executioner could use some other bonus than laser activation cost.

Please ? Also if you cannot give puni 3rd mid , maybe you can give it 5th low. It will still lack very important mid for web. But it will be beast if it will be able to track anything ;p
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#66 - 2014-02-26 15:58:55 UTC
TrouserDeagle wrote:
a vexor should either be using medium drones or it should be using sentries (50 bandwidth and 15% combat drone damage per level pls ccp). heavy drones are just too much of a joke to consider outside very limited circumstances, even with silly 37.5% speed and tracking bonuses.

I strongly disagree. A properly flown Vexor with a flight of 2 heavies, 2 mediums and 1 light is very, very viable in my experience. It's niche and it's hard to get in to actually apply your damage, but that's where the fun comes in. The 75 mbit/s bandwidth is there for a reason, and the reason is not to use 3 heavies (perhaps to use 3 sentries though).

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)

Goldensaver
Maraque Enterprises
Just let it happen
#67 - 2014-02-26 16:02:46 UTC
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
TrouserDeagle wrote:
a vexor should either be using medium drones or it should be using sentries (50 bandwidth and 15% combat drone damage per level pls ccp). heavy drones are just too much of a joke to consider outside very limited circumstances, even with silly 37.5% speed and tracking bonuses.

I strongly disagree. A properly flown Vexor with a flight of 2 heavies, 2 mediums and 1 light is very, very viable in my experience. It's niche and it's hard to get in to actually apply your damage, but that's where the fun comes in. The 75 mbit/s bandwidth is there for a reason, and the reason is not to use 3 heavies (perhaps to use 3 sentries though).

I agree yet disagree. I would agree if just getting into range allowed you to properly apply damage, but heavies have trash application on a good amount of targets. You pretty much have to run a dual web and scram fit to properly apply with the heavies, but if you do you actually get a pretty sweet gankboat what with the blasters and drones.

Though the 15% per level with mediums also sounds pretty damn fine, giving good application, good damage, and a more reliable drone system, though perhaps too strong against frigs.

Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Jaro Essa wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:

VEXOR:
-10 m/s velocity
+0.03 inertia
-210000 mass

This seems like a bit of a double whammy, a very slight nerf to gank-focused blaster fits coupled with a slight nerf to 1600mm plate fits. Very small nerfs, but still. Is the intention to increase the differentiation between the Vexor and the Thorax?


It indeed looks like a nerf.
The Vexor is a brawler boat. It has to to close on its target before releasing drones (Ogre's fly slower than the ship does). To lower its speed is just bad idea. Though with the drop in mass, I am curious what the MwD speed looks like.

From what I understand, they're mostly trying to keep MWD speeds the same, but reducing the plated speed to penalize buffer tanking and encourage Gallente style active tanking.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#68 - 2014-02-26 16:05:16 UTC
TrouserDeagle wrote:

a vexor should either be using medium drones or it should be using sentries (50 bandwidth and 15% combat drone damage per level pls ccp). heavy drones are just too much of a joke to consider outside very limited circumstances, even with silly 37.5% speed and tracking bonuses.

I agree that Cruisers and by extension battlecruisers should be using medium drones and not some odd mix match of medium, large and small drones.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.

Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#69 - 2014-02-26 16:07:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Petrus Blackshell
CCP Fozzie wrote:
The Rifter is getting a very significant bonus change, swapping its old SPT tracking bonus (which was/is extremely common among minmatar frigates) for a 10% falloff bonus that will give it much improved projection with both autocannons and artillery.


"Was/is" should be very much "is". I'm sure you're already aware of all of this, but a reminder:


Small projectile ships with a tracking bonus and a raw damage bonus (not RoF):Rifter, Slasher, Firetail, Dramiel, Thrasher, Wolf, Jaguar, Claw, Stiletto, Sabre.

Small projectile ships without a tracking bonus: Reaper, Cheetah, Rifter.

Small projectile ships without a raw damage bonus (not RoF):None.


The Rifter is the first serious small projectile combat ship to operate without a tracking bonus. This is a good direction to go in! Bonus homogeneity across the entire line of small projectile ships frankly makes them very boring. With hybrids/lasers, there are brawling ships, scram-kite ships, sniping ships, etc, all determined by their bonuses. With projectiles, it's "meh, whatever works", with much less well-defined roles and niches for ships. Please replace tracking bonuses for more ships, like the Firetail, and maybe even change the damage bonus to RoF if a particular ship is anemic in DPS (hint: Jaguar is).

CCP Fozzie wrote:

RIFTER:
Removed +7.5% Small Projectile Turret tracking bonus
Added +10% Small Projectile Turret falloff bonus
+10 m/s velocity
+0.01 inertia

Looks good to me. I would have increased the speed a bit further, or switched the damage bonus to RoF, but I might be biased because I believe the Rifter is entitled to being the best ship in Eve. It should be much better even with these changes, and I'll have lots of fun figuring out the new niche the Rifter fits in.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)

TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#70 - 2014-02-26 16:09:58 UTC
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
TrouserDeagle wrote:
a vexor should either be using medium drones or it should be using sentries (50 bandwidth and 15% combat drone damage per level pls ccp). heavy drones are just too much of a joke to consider outside very limited circumstances, even with silly 37.5% speed and tracking bonuses.

I strongly disagree. A properly flown Vexor with a flight of 2 heavies, 2 mediums and 1 light is very, very viable in my experience. It's niche and it's hard to get in to actually apply your damage, but that's where the fun comes in. The 75 mbit/s bandwidth is there for a reason, and the reason is not to use 3 heavies (perhaps to use 3 sentries though).


your drones all explode and you cannot carry any spares, because heavies are a joke and are enormous. there is an upside to using all of your bandwidth, but it's typically massively outweighed by the downsides, imo.
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#71 - 2014-02-26 16:10:48 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
TrouserDeagle wrote:

a vexor should either be using medium drones or it should be using sentries (50 bandwidth and 15% combat drone damage per level pls ccp). heavy drones are just too much of a joke to consider outside very limited circumstances, even with silly 37.5% speed and tracking bonuses.

I agree that Cruisers and by extension battlecruisers should be using medium drones and not some odd mix match of medium, large and small drones.

Why? The whole point of the bandwidth mechanic is to enable a lot of versatility in what you put on the field. Why would mixing drone sizes be bad, so long as you can apply damage with all of them?

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)

Goldensaver
Maraque Enterprises
Just let it happen
#72 - 2014-02-26 16:11:06 UTC
Petrus Blackshell wrote:

I believe the Rifter is entitled to being the best ship in Eve.

Oh you Rifterlings :)
Speedkermit Damo
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#73 - 2014-02-26 16:14:06 UTC
I like most of these changes, especially to the Rifter. perhaps I'll be able to fly one again without my corpmates threatening to awox me.

However, the Punisher really does need more help. To be honest, all ships need a mimimum of three mid-slots.

Protect me from knowing what I don't need to know. Protect me from even knowing that there are things to know that I don't know. Protect me from knowing that I decided not to know about the things that I decided not to know about. Amen.

Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#74 - 2014-02-26 16:15:13 UTC
TrouserDeagle wrote:
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
TrouserDeagle wrote:
a vexor should either be using medium drones or it should be using sentries (50 bandwidth and 15% combat drone damage per level pls ccp). heavy drones are just too much of a joke to consider outside very limited circumstances, even with silly 37.5% speed and tracking bonuses.

I strongly disagree. A properly flown Vexor with a flight of 2 heavies, 2 mediums and 1 light is very, very viable in my experience. It's niche and it's hard to get in to actually apply your damage, but that's where the fun comes in. The 75 mbit/s bandwidth is there for a reason, and the reason is not to use 3 heavies (perhaps to use 3 sentries though).


your drones all explode and you cannot carry any spares, because heavies are a joke and are enormous. there is an upside to using all of your bandwidth, but it's typically massively outweighed by the downsides, imo.

Depends on the fight, the opponents, and what else is going on. In a 5-10 man cruiser gang, nobody is going to bother to pop your Ogre IIs. For example, I sometimes fly a shield 800 dps Vexor as part of a gang where I know there will be plenty of tackle/webs. That way the extra speed from being shield fit can allow me to close the distance to webbed targets, and my drones can take them down right quick. In a solo situation, I might be better off with mediums, but only maybe. I have somehow still managed to make Ogres hit frigates.

What I'm trying to get to is, the 2/2/1 setup is not universally bad. It is difficult to use, yes, but it has its place and is very effective when used right.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)

Goldensaver
Maraque Enterprises
Just let it happen
#75 - 2014-02-26 16:15:54 UTC
TrouserDeagle wrote:
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
TrouserDeagle wrote:
a vexor should either be using medium drones or it should be using sentries (50 bandwidth and 15% combat drone damage per level pls ccp). heavy drones are just too much of a joke to consider outside very limited circumstances, even with silly 37.5% speed and tracking bonuses.

I strongly disagree. A properly flown Vexor with a flight of 2 heavies, 2 mediums and 1 light is very, very viable in my experience. It's niche and it's hard to get in to actually apply your damage, but that's where the fun comes in. The 75 mbit/s bandwidth is there for a reason, and the reason is not to use 3 heavies (perhaps to use 3 sentries though).


your drones all explode and you cannot carry any spares, because heavies are a joke and are enormous. there is an upside to using all of your bandwidth, but it's typically massively outweighed by the downsides, imo.

On this note, if they did change the Vexor to a 50mbit/15% bonus, I'd be alright with it getting a 75-100m3 drone bay limiting the amount of spares/limiting the versatility of the ship by letting it carry spares or carry a flight of lights for engaging more targets.

I mean, we can't let it have 2 full flights of max damage in addition to having a flight of lights, or a flight of damage, spares, a flight of lights, and a flight of ECM. That's really pushing into Amarr drone ship territory, where the Amarrians typically have larger bays and lower damage giving more versatility compared to the Gallente "tons of damage, versatility be damned" philosophy.
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#76 - 2014-02-26 16:17:13 UTC
That rifter bonus change is very much appreciated
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#77 - 2014-02-26 16:18:51 UTC
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
TrouserDeagle wrote:

a vexor should either be using medium drones or it should be using sentries (50 bandwidth and 15% combat drone damage per level pls ccp). heavy drones are just too much of a joke to consider outside very limited circumstances, even with silly 37.5% speed and tracking bonuses.

I agree that Cruisers and by extension battlecruisers should be using medium drones and not some odd mix match of medium, large and small drones.

Why? The whole point of the bandwidth mechanic is to enable a lot of versatility in what you put on the field. Why would mixing drone sizes be bad, so long as you can apply damage with all of them?

No the bandwidth mechanic was introduced to limit the size of drones you could field while allowing large drone bays still. Large drone bays is what allows for versatility in the field.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.

Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#78 - 2014-02-26 16:19:26 UTC
Goldensaver wrote:
Petrus Blackshell wrote:

I believe the Rifter is entitled to being the best ship in Eve.

Oh you Rifterlings :)

I don't believe is a USB hub shaped like an Atron, Merlin, Dramiel, or any other frigate other than the Rifter, is there? It's patently obvious that even CCP endorses the Rifter as the best frigate.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)

Eran Mintor
Metropolis Commercial Consortium
#79 - 2014-02-26 16:20:48 UTC
I do not understand the reasoning for some of these changes, namely the Rifter and the Punisher.

The Punisher is already a great ship. It has one of the best tanks of the T1 frigates and applies decent dps as well. Its weakness has always been its speed and agility, making it easier to evade or kite. A small squad of Punishers equipped with 1 small remote armor repper each is nothing to take lightly, and often ends with any similar class squad of frigates destroyed or running.

Now you intend to remove it's weakness, speed, and buff it even more by increasing the capacitor recharge and sensor strength. So not only will jams be less often, but energy neutralizers will be less effective. On top of that, it's speed is increased so forget running away unless you're one of the quickest frigates. These changes are not needed and do not "balance" frigate warfare.

The Rifter is my favorite frigate, mainly because it's the first ship I flew in PvP and it looks awesome, so I know it quite well. It has fallen from grace as one of the best combat frigates to a mediocre one, to what will now be one of the worst with these changes. You intend to replace the tracking bonus with falloff on a frigate that already has great falloff range. You can get 13km effective range with barrage on autocannons and, with the short lock range of a frigate, artillery already reaches as far as you'll lock without significant sensor mods/rigs.

The tracking bonus is necessary. Because other Minmatar ships have a tracking bonus is no real reason to remove it, and it frankly makes no sense to. They have that bonus for good reason. The tracking bonus allows turrets to still hit their targets while kiting, and at close ranges it allows it to still hit while under tracking disruption-if piloted correctly. While a falloff bonus could theoretically increase damage output, the lowered tracking will give it zero damage output if it can't track its target. Tracking disruptors being the main ewar of the Amarr hulls mean you'll often find yourself under a situation that is going to make it difficult to track. These changes would make it nearly impossible.

Put this in perspective with the reality that Minmatar "ewar" is terrible when compared to the other 3 races, and you have a serious issue. Tracking disruptors could mitigate damage on a whole fleet, while target painters only increase the signature radius of a single target, which likely won't even increase damage in frigate warfare due to the fact that the turrets are already small enough to hit and speed and ranges often mitigate any benefits target painters make for missiles in frigate warfare. There's something you should rebalance-ewar.

You could argue that tracking links/computers are the solution, but this "solution" would not be necessary if the bonus is not removed. Further, this "solution" removes another midslot that should be used for tackling or ewar, not electronics boosting. With these changes I'd have to fit a MWD, Sensor Booster, and Tracking Computer/Link....I have no space left for tackle.

These are not the changes to make. I don't think you, CCP Fozzie, have much experience in T1 frigate warfare otherwise we wouldn't be heading down this road. Don't "fix" what's not broken.

(I'd like to end this post by mentioning how terrible your forums are. I spent 15 minutes writing a nice reply to the OP when I went to post it, and forums ate it with no draft saved or anything. I know other people who refuse to spend the same time to write the same post over and instead decide not to contribute at all. This needs to be fixed, get rid of that "draft saving" function that is the bane of eve-o forums.)
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#80 - 2014-02-26 16:22:16 UTC
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
TrouserDeagle wrote:
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
TrouserDeagle wrote:
a vexor should either be using medium drones or it should be using sentries (50 bandwidth and 15% combat drone damage per level pls ccp). heavy drones are just too much of a joke to consider outside very limited circumstances, even with silly 37.5% speed and tracking bonuses.

I strongly disagree. A properly flown Vexor with a flight of 2 heavies, 2 mediums and 1 light is very, very viable in my experience. It's niche and it's hard to get in to actually apply your damage, but that's where the fun comes in. The 75 mbit/s bandwidth is there for a reason, and the reason is not to use 3 heavies (perhaps to use 3 sentries though).


your drones all explode and you cannot carry any spares, because heavies are a joke and are enormous. there is an upside to using all of your bandwidth, but it's typically massively outweighed by the downsides, imo.

Depends on the fight, the opponents, and what else is going on. In a 5-10 man cruiser gang, nobody is going to bother to pop your Ogre IIs. For example, I sometimes fly a shield 800 dps Vexor as part of a gang where I know there will be plenty of tackle/webs. That way the extra speed from being shield fit can allow me to close the distance to webbed targets, and my drones can take them down right quick. In a solo situation, I might be better off with mediums, but only maybe. I have somehow still managed to make Ogres hit frigates.

What I'm trying to get to is, the 2/2/1 setup is not universally bad. It is difficult to use, yes, but it has its place and is very effective when used right.


right, but in a 5-10 man gang, you want fast dps. when I do those gangs, I do sentries and hammers, choosing which group depending on the situation. for solo stuff, you could say you want the 2/2/1 for honour brawling other cruisers, but I prefer to take maybe 7 mediums so I can load up on tonnes of lights for trashing frig gangs.