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[Kronos] Pirate Faction Frigates

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Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#701 - 2014-02-26 10:36:25 UTC
Luscius Uta wrote:
Worm:

I'm gonna start with that ship, since it both has most interesting changes and was in the greatest need of a buff.
First, I think that 300% drone bonus will be OP (for a frigate), since it gives you 8 effective light drones, while any other subcapital drone boat doesn't give you more than 7.5 (and you also have spare drones which makes trying to kill your drones a pointless task for most people who will fight you). There is a reason why other drone-focused frigates like Ishkur or Astero don't have a drone damage bonus, it's called balance. What I would do is give it 50 m^3 drone bay (effectively putting the old bonus from Gallente Frigate skill into the ship's hull) and keep the old drone bandwidth, while replacing the Gallente frigate bonus with 20% bonus to drone hitpoints per level. Old special ability was also rather questionable and I would put a 25% bonus to Light Missile and Rocket Launcher rate of fire in its place.

Succubus:

Afterburner bonus is nice, good to see CCP still coming with new bonuses instead of predictably recycling old ones (Vagabond and Deimos, I'm looking at you). However it's still gonna be outruned by anything with a mwd, so a scram-fitted brawler will be the most common use, I guess.

Crour

Changes look good, nothing else to comment. On a somewhat related note, Bhaalgorn might deserve an unique model, like other two Blood ships.

Daredevil

Unless you're gonna make a blaster kiter (lol wtf), falloff bonus will be pretty much useless. I would go with 5% damage bonus while reducing special ability bonus to 150%, leaving you with 6.25 effective turrets with Gallente Frigate V. It also deserves a small drone bay.

Dramiel

No significant changes. Drone bay on this ship never made much sense though.


Angels are as gallente as the Serpentis. In fact.. lorewise the serpentis ships fighting force are angel .. .they are very very connected pirate factions.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#702 - 2014-02-26 10:39:43 UTC
Riot Girl wrote:
PinkKnife wrote:
JEFFRAIDER wrote:
The Cruor is a bit of a mess considering how the web range bonus doesn't synergize wtih the nos amount bonus. How about weakening the web range bonus, keeping the nos strength bonus and adding in a nos range bonus? Whatever the numbers work out to for the Cruor to be able to web with a meta 4 web no bonus no heat to about 18km and the nos going say 22km? Seems like it gives it a nice fun role to be an outside scram range fighter without being super OP.


This is why I like the idea of the bonus to Neut drones. It removes the aspect of neut range and allows you to kite out to your hearts content.


With 28km web range cold, you can already kite to your heart's content. The bonus to neuting power allows you to cap out a blaster frig pretty much instantly.



No you CANNOT kite. You can do NOthing at 28 km with it. You need to get clsoer. WHen you get closer , BEFORE you get into your Nos and weaposn range you get into enemy web range. THen suddenly you are goign SLOWER than your enemy (because blood raiders are slwoer than almost anythign else).. so you NEVER get into range to do Anything.

The cruor becomes just a funny looking hyena. a WASTE.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#703 - 2014-02-26 10:46:07 UTC
Michael Harari wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:


  • I can confirm that 10mn AB Succbus is gross, it's 5k/sec or something before links. We are ok with this.

    • ShockedShockedShockedShocked

    Edit: Basically, what has changed between the af rework and now that 50-100% ab bonuses are no longer overpowered?



    Well the team has changed :P And back then a lot of other ships were weaker as well. Nowadays I woudl LOVE if the AF lsot the MWD bonus and got a 10% bonus to AB.

    "If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
    TAckermassacker
    School of Applied Knowledge
    Caldari State
    #704 - 2014-02-26 10:52:34 UTC  |  Edited by: TAckermassacker
    Angel Cartel is in my oppinion the main looser of the warp speed changes, and the long time until it lands and the low chance to escape of a Machariel is the reason why the price is falling.

    I would suggest a 25-50% Role Bonus to warp speed for all Angel ships.

    • would fit to the Story
    • would serve a niche for hit and run ships
    • would make a dram compareable to ceptors again
    Buckethead bot
    Ministry of War
    Amarr Empire
    #705 - 2014-02-26 10:56:02 UTC
    Kagura Nikon wrote:
    Riot Girl wrote:
    PinkKnife wrote:
    JEFFRAIDER wrote:
    The Cruor is a bit of a mess considering how the web range bonus doesn't synergize wtih the nos amount bonus. How about weakening the web range bonus, keeping the nos strength bonus and adding in a nos range bonus? Whatever the numbers work out to for the Cruor to be able to web with a meta 4 web no bonus no heat to about 18km and the nos going say 22km? Seems like it gives it a nice fun role to be an outside scram range fighter without being super OP.


    This is why I like the idea of the bonus to Neut drones. It removes the aspect of neut range and allows you to kite out to your hearts content.


    With 28km web range cold, you can already kite to your heart's content. The bonus to neuting power allows you to cap out a blaster frig pretty much instantly.



    No you CANNOT kite. You can do NOthing at 28 km with it. You need to get clsoer. WHen you get closer , BEFORE you get into your Nos and weaposn range you get into enemy web range. THen suddenly you are goign SLOWER than your enemy (because blood raiders are slwoer than almost anythign else).. so you NEVER get into range to do Anything.

    The cruor becomes just a funny looking hyena. a WASTE.


    Not to mention he still needs a slot either in mids or low.
    He cant have a decent tank, cant have decent dps, not to mention a good balance between them.
    Riot Girl
    You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
    #706 - 2014-02-26 10:57:36 UTC
    Kagura Nikon wrote:
    No you CANNOT kite. You can do NOthing at 28 km with it. You need to get clsoer. WHen you get closer , BEFORE you get into your Nos and weaposn range you get into enemy web range. THen suddenly you are goign SLOWER than your enemy (because blood raiders are slwoer than almost anythign else).. so you NEVER get into range to do Anything.

    The cruor becomes just a funny looking hyena. a WASTE.

    Because beams don't exist. Actually, both the Sansha and Blood Raider frigs are looking like they are designed to promote more small beam use to me.

    Oh god.
    Dav Varan
    State Protectorate
    Caldari State
    #707 - 2014-02-26 11:02:12 UTC
    Frigate combat is about speed speed more speed and after that yet more speed.

    Or maybe that would be better expressed as mobility.


    The dram of course has great mobility.
    The dare has great control of mobility of its enemy and is reasonable quick itself.

    The Suckubus may stop sucking with its great mobility bonus
    The Cruor has a nice mobility control bonus now 2.

    Thats 4 of the 5 sorted.


    The worm is aptly named as about the only thing it is good for atm is bait.

    Really wouldn't wants to fly a multi million isk frig that has such terrible mobility and will get kited to death by a couple of scrub condors.


    How about making the worm a fast drone kiter rather than a slow drone brawler.
    5 drones is also more fun than 2.


    WORM

    Gallente Frigate Bonus:
    10% bonus to warp disrupter and warp scrambler range per level

    Caldari Frigate Bonus:
    4% bonus to all shield resistances

    Role Bonus:
    50% bonus to light combat drone damage and hitpoints and navigation


    Slot layout: 3H, 4M, 3L; 0 turrets, 2 launchers
    Fittings: 40 PWG(+5), 180 CPU(+20)
    Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 830(+33) / 500(-82) / 620(-3)
    Capacitor (amount / recharge / cap per second) : 380(+30) / 212000 (-22375) / 1.79 (+.29)
    Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 380(+93) / 3.8(+.31) / 965000 / 5.17s(+.42)
    Drones (bandwidth / bay): 25 / 50
    Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 35km / 650 / 5
    Sensor strength: 15
    Signature radius: 40
    Iyacia Cyric'ai
    Lai Dai Counterintelligence
    #708 - 2014-02-26 11:04:20 UTC
    The worm drone bonus change is a bit... random. Setting aside how you would continue this flavour to the Gila and Rattlesnake, what (if any) is the tactical point of packaging the damage and HP of 5 drones into 2? Wouldn't it just mean I lose more DPS pulling one back into the bay if people decide to shoot my drones first?

    I think a drone speed bonus would be more useful.


    Also I hope you don't think that just because the Nightmare sees a decent amount of use in PvE that nothing should be done to make it more viable for PvP.
    Medalyn Isis
    Doomheim
    #709 - 2014-02-26 11:04:22 UTC
    I just read the first three pages so far, and I am impressed with most of the ships.

    Although I don't like the Blood web range bonus. Apart from the fact that this is a Minmatar ship bonus already, it doesn't synergise well with the nuet bonus. Now the old bonus was great and I don't see why it needs to be removed. The old bonus allowed you to completely lock down an enemy ship with boosted nuets and webs effectively rendering the ship useless, this new version means you are relying completely on the nuets which may take some time to have their intended effect.

    So in summary, bring back the old web bonus for Blood Raider's in my opinion.
    Medalyn Isis
    Doomheim
    #710 - 2014-02-26 11:09:03 UTC
    Kagura Nikon wrote:
    THen suddenly you are goign SLOWER than your enemy (because blood raiders are slwoer than almost anythign else).. so you NEVER get into range to do Anything.

    This is an important point, not just with the Cruor but also when you get onto the Ashimmu, blood raider ships are very slow, and with heavy armour plates making them even more sluggish, they need the web effectiveness bonus as it is too easy to escape from them otherwise.
    Ransu Asanari
    Perkone
    Caldari State
    #711 - 2014-02-26 11:25:50 UTC
    REALLY COOL IDEA ALERT

    So one idea to keep sort of an electronic warfare theme for Guristas, since the Worm description says it has "electronic warfare capabilities" (and we seem to be avoiding ECM), would be to have the two drones that it deploys have altered electronic signatures. These drones would show up as identical copies of the pilot in space, and on the overview. If a pilot warps in on a Worm with the drones already deployed, they wouldn't be able to tell which was the actual pilot, and since they are fairly tanky, it could mean an inexperienced pilot would use some of their time and DPS trying to lock up and take out the wrong ship.

    Now this wouldn't be that overpowered since the drone would still act differently than the pilot when engaging, and would be firing projectile beams (or whichever racial weapon the drone uses). It also means if a logistics pilot tries to repair you by targeting from the overview, they might get the drone instead. I think the idea of playing the "shell game" with your ship in space, might buy you a few seconds of confusion, and I think that would be worth it.
    Laiannah Sahireen
    Republic Military School
    Minmatar Republic
    #712 - 2014-02-26 11:26:25 UTC
    I'd like to add my voice to the 'Please give blood raiders some more speed' crowd.

    I fly an ashimmu quite often and whilst I like the ship, it's really difficult to actually catch something unless you land on top of it. Whilst a web range bonus will help, the loss of the web strength will undo a lot of the benefit you gain. Tapping into that minmatar racial association and giving it some ability to move when needed will make a world of difference to this line of ships.
    Azurun Li
    Number One Lucky Golden Dragon Buffet
    #713 - 2014-02-26 11:31:30 UTC
    I would like to see a drone speed bonus on the Guristas hulls. I believe this would benefit both PvE and PvP equally.
    Xayo 204
    Brutor Tribe
    Minmatar Republic
    #714 - 2014-02-26 11:31:43 UTC
    I am a bit sad about the sansha changes. Afterburner speed is great and unique and all, but I don't want to loose 10% dps on my Incursion Nightmare for a bonus I will never use. Right now sansha ships get a 100% damage role bonus and a 25% damage bonus from caldari shipskills. This two boni stack, resulting in a 150% damage bonus. I don't think a 10% dps nerf is necessary for a line of ships that uses a whopping 80% of their base cap peak recharge just to keep their guns cycling and doesn't have access to high-damage weapons like Blasters.
    Delicious Charen-Teng
    Center for Advanced Studies
    Gallente Federation
    #715 - 2014-02-26 11:36:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Delicious Charen-Teng
    My main points have been raised before on this thread but will post them here anyway to show more people feel the same way.

    - Cruor web range bonus sucks. It needs, both in terms of fitting and style, a strength bonused web. Either have 2 range bonuses for its flava, or two strength bonuses. Mixing them up fails for me.

    - New Worm flavour works mechanically and the numbers stack up, but the types of weapons you are giving it make it ideal for kiting and drone rush ideas. Let it do that well, give it better agility and speed, and drop its tank to compensate.

    - Succubus needs some sort of lazor range bonus. This would probably be significantly more influential than the increase to damage. It wants so badly to kite, but will continue to have to brawl.

    Lastly, it feels as though the flavour of Pirate Frigates being 1/2 way between Assault Ships and Inties dies with this pass, as 3 (arguably 4) of the 5 have no real hope of kiting and playing a long point meta. They simply must brawl, and therefore most AF's will outperform for price these ships, with better DPS and the right sort of bonuses in nearly every instance.
    Medalyn Isis
    Doomheim
    #716 - 2014-02-26 11:39:48 UTC
    Elise Randolph wrote:
    Seems neat.

    First impression is that the Succubus is going to fly like a shield Crusader - kinda neat to think about.

    I worry that bonuses don't scale very well, though, and the Phantasm seems to get a bit shafted. Promotes a sig tank, but also an active shield tank at the same time with a pretty large base sig for a cruiser. Sigtanking + shield tanking /usually/ don't go hand in hand.


    Exactly, this was my concern upon reading about the new direction for Sansha, ships renowned for having a behemoth of a shield tank, and a respectively large signature radius, which doesn't go hand in hand with afterburner use.

    On the Nightmare the AB bonus is going to be pretty useless, although that doesn't matter so much as it is already good enough without it. But on the Phantasm, it is going to need a major reduction in it's signature to make this work, seeing as it's signature will bloom with all the shield tank mods it needs fitted to be effective. It could work though, will be interesting to see the draft.
    Medalyn Isis
    Doomheim
    #717 - 2014-02-26 11:47:56 UTC
    Xayo 204 wrote:
    I am a bit sad about the sansha changes. Afterburner speed is great and unique and all, but I don't want to loose 10% dps on my Incursion Nightmare for a bonus I will never use. Right now sansha ships get a 100% damage role bonus and a 25% damage bonus from caldari shipskills. This two boni stack, resulting in a 150% damage bonus. I don't think a 10% dps nerf is necessary for a line of ships that uses a whopping 80% of their base cap peak recharge just to keep their guns cycling and doesn't have access to high-damage weapons like Blasters.

    Very true, that needs changing then surely. There is no reason why Sansha needs a damage nerf. Probably a typo from CCP Rise.
    Gypsio III
    Questionable Ethics.
    Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
    #718 - 2014-02-26 11:52:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Gypsio III
    A drone speed bonus really isn't that useful for the Worm. Yes, it lets your drones get to the target a bit quicker, but that's not really anything to write home about.

    The other case is that it would let your drones chase down very fast ships - but they still wouldn't apply meaningful DPS to it, because of the tracking and pulsing-MWD problems. Try fitting a few DNCs and sending Warriors off after a linked frigate - they're fast enough to catch it, but too fast enough to maintain a stable range and hence apply their DPS.

    Drone speed would be a pretty shoddy bonus.
    Medalyn Isis
    Doomheim
    #719 - 2014-02-26 12:10:17 UTC
    CCP Rise wrote:

    Role Bonus:
    125% bonus to Small Energy Turret damage (was 100% energy turret damage)


    The Sansha bonus should actually be 150% role bonus to maintain it at the current level of dps, not 125%. Otherwise that is a horrible nerf, particularly for the Phantasm and even more so on the Nightmare.
    Dav Varan
    State Protectorate
    Caldari State
    #720 - 2014-02-26 12:21:17 UTC
    Gypsio III wrote:
    A drone speed bonus really isn't that useful for the Worm. Yes, it lets your drones get to the target a bit quicker, but that's not really anything to write home about.

    The other case is that it would let your drones chase down very fast ships - but they still wouldn't apply meaningful DPS to it, because of the tracking and pulsing-MWD problems. Try fitting a few DNCs and sending Warriors off after a linked frigate - they're fast enough to catch it, but too fast enough to maintain a stable range and hence apply their DPS.

    Drone speed would be a pretty shoddy bonus.



    The usefulness of the nav bonus to drones it to make it faster to recall/redeploy drones that are being shot at, not neccessariliy to make the worm uber versus speed tanked frigs.

    On its own pretty scrub, but if its part of a compound hp/dps/nav bonus its fine.

    So nav bonus will be great for all pve as well as pvp against brawler frigs , all cruisers and up.