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[Kronos] Pirate Faction Frigates

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Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#681 - 2014-02-26 09:46:25 UTC
Jeanne-Luise Argenau wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
CRUOR

Amarr Frigate Bonus:
15% bonus to Energy Vampire and Energy Neutralizer effectiveness

Minmatar Frigate Bonus:
20% bonus to Stasis Webifier range (was 10% bonus to Stasis Webifier effectiveness)

Role Bonus:
100% bonus to Small Energy Turret damage
note: Energy Vampires operate as though your capacitor is empty (this wording is work in progress)


Slot layout: 4H, 3M, 3L; 2 turrets, 0 launchers
Fittings: 50 PWG(-7), 140 CPU(+3)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 480(-103) / 740(+83) / 580(-2)
Capacitor (amount / recharge / cap per second) : 470 / 205000 (-29375) / 2.24 (+.23)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 330(+22) / 3.6 / 1003000 / 5.01s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 10(+10) / 10(+10)
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 33km(+8km) / 760 / 6
Sensor strength: 12
Signature radius: 35



im not sure how it will effect fleet fights but when i look at it 1vs1 i would say the web range is way overpowered on the first look.24k heated meta 4 web long point 24km?


The new bonus is weaker than the old. Specially for the frigate. THe ship is a NOS boat. It needs to get within 7 km anyway.

If you wanted just web range you will use a Hyena

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#682 - 2014-02-26 09:46:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Kaarous Aldurald
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Kaeda Maxwell wrote:

No, they don' t. Webs are stacking penalized a 90% web slows you down a lot more then 2x 60%.


Stacking penalty for 2 mods is 87% off the second stack.

Quote:
Neut bonus absolutely doesnt synergize with web range bonus


And? The web bonus alone is awesome.


yes.. and the final speed is (100% * 0.6 ) -> 60 * 0.52 -> 31.2 In other words 68.8%

2 60% webs are MUCH MUCH weaker than 1 x 90% web.


Yeah, I ****** up my order of operations on that one. Napkin math for you. You're drastically wrong with regards to yours, though. An additional web adds a whole lot more than another 9%.

Seems I was off by about 8% myself, in that 100m/s becomes 18.5-ish with two T2 webs on, compared to 10m/s with a 90% bonused web on.

As far as being blapped by dreads goes, however, I must say I think it to still be greatly exaggerated as to the severity. To pretty much every ship but an "elite pvp solo" frigate, or maybe a Cynabal, the difference is miniscule.

Niche cases aren't something to nerf the Serpentis line over.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#683 - 2014-02-26 09:52:53 UTC
Michael Harari wrote:
Also I think the curor and succubus really dont need fitting nerfs.



That.. I dont hve a succubus but the cruor is already a pain to fit.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#684 - 2014-02-26 09:54:23 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Michael Harari wrote:
Also I think the curor and succubus really dont need fitting nerfs.



That.. I dont hve a succubus but the cruor is already a pain to fit.


Yeah, I gotta say I heartily agree. Their fitting was fine, in fact I'd have personally called it a bit on the low end.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#685 - 2014-02-26 09:54:39 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Kaeda Maxwell wrote:

No, they don' t. Webs are stacking penalized a 90% web slows you down a lot more then 2x 60%.


Stacking penalty for 2 mods is 87% off the second stack.

Quote:
Neut bonus absolutely doesnt synergize with web range bonus


And? The web bonus alone is awesome.


yes.. and the final speed is (100% * 0.6 ) -> 60 * 0.52 -> 31.2 In other words 68.8%

2 60% webs are MUCH MUCH weaker than 1 x 90% web.


Yeah, I ****** up my order of operations on that one. Napkin math for you. You're drastically wrong with regards to yours, though. An additional web adds a whole lot more than another 9%.

Seems I was off by about 8% myself, in that 100m/s becomes 18.5-ish with two T2 webs on, compared to 10m/s with a 90% bonused web on.

As far as being blapped by dreads goes, however, I must say I think it to still be greatly exaggerated as to the severity. To pretty much every ship but an "elite pvp solo" frigate, or maybe a Cynabal, the difference is miniscule.

Niche cases aren't something to nerf the Serpentis line over.



Nothign wrong there .. except that the first part result is 40 not 60 : P. 87% of the 60% web is a 52.2% web.

The final should be rougly 20 ms.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#686 - 2014-02-26 09:56:23 UTC
Yazzinra wrote:
Michael Harari wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:


  • I can confirm that 10mn AB Succbus is gross, it's 5k/sec or something before links. We are ok with this.

    • ShockedShockedShockedShocked

    Edit: Basically, what has changed between the af rework and now that 50-100% ab bonuses are no longer overpowered?


    seriously, this.

    AFs were deemed overpowered with half the current succubus afterburner bonus. This could really use an answer.




    otherwise, i look forward to this web range bonused ashimmu. aside from the comet, faction frigs aren't really my thing.



    The assault frigates are MUCH more powerful tankwise and are a in a broad selection. They were more powerful than the succubus by a long shot.

    But I still would like more ships with some AB bonus :)

    "If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
    Kaarous Aldurald
    Black Hydra Consortium.
    #687 - 2014-02-26 09:59:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Kaarous Aldurald
    Kagura Nikon wrote:


    Nothign wrong there .. except that the first part result is 40 not 60 : P. 87% of the 60% web is a 52.2% web.

    The final should be rougly 20 ms.


    Yeah, like I said my estimation was about 18.5. I shrugged and thought "8 m/s is nothing to get so upset over", at first. Even in cases of significant speed, it's not even really that significant of a difference.

    It only helps "dreads", since that's what so much of the fuss appears to be about, shoot down psycho fast frigates. Anything else is equally dead, regardless if they got double webbed or bonused webbed.

    Like I said though, that's a pretty niche case.

    "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

    One of ours, ten of theirs.

    Best Meltdown Ever.
    Kagura Nikon
    Native Freshfood
    Minmatar Republic
    #688 - 2014-02-26 09:59:55 UTC
    Psychotic Monk wrote:
    I like these changes in general, but I'm pretty meh on the Sansha changes.

    For starters, the Succubus and the Phantasm both have pretty harsh cap problems in my experience. I saw a buff to the Succubus's cap, but I'm not sure it'll be enough.

    Also, echoing what some others have said in this thread, we already have fast and hard to hit frigs in the form of the daredevil and the dramiel, I'm not sure making Sansha a set of shield-tanking laser angels is really using the whole thing to its full potential.

    Have you considered something a little more out there, like maybe giving them bonuses that make you want to tinker tank them and rock some badass local reps? That would be really interesting and fit with the flavor of their lore.

    Just a thought.

    I want more excuses to fly boats with spikes on them.



    LOl? They are now the most powerful of all races direct combat wise.

    THe AB bonus already helps your cap, sicne you are not goign to use a MWD anymore.

    It is a ship way harder to damage than the angel or serpentis one. It jsut do not have the ooomph the other 2 on the " I cought you... start your prayers" department.

    "If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
    Kagura Nikon
    Native Freshfood
    Minmatar Republic
    #689 - 2014-02-26 10:02:10 UTC
    Arthur Aihaken wrote:
    When can we see the cruisers and battleships?



    We probably is testign waters with the frigates before jumping into full flak territory.

    Peopel are way moreprotective of their vindicators and machariels than of their frigates :P

    "If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
    Rek Seven
    University of Caille
    Gallente Federation
    #690 - 2014-02-26 10:03:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Rek Seven
    CCP Rise wrote:

    As it stands, at 10% per level, it is one of the strongest bonuses in the game and in the right situation it can feel downright broken. For now, I intend to leave it at full strength. While it is very powerful, I believe it delivers on the excitement and special feel that pirate factions ought to provide.


    I am very glad you feel like this. Having ships in the game that make you say "I should stay away from that ship because it can do X to my ship" makes the game more interesting.

    The other changes seem okay. I'm looking forward to seeing how the Phantasm turns out.

    The wishlist is pretty much complete...
    Kaarous Aldurald
    Black Hydra Consortium.
    #691 - 2014-02-26 10:06:40 UTC
    Kagura Nikon wrote:
    Arthur Aihaken wrote:
    When can we see the cruisers and battleships?



    We probably is testign waters with the frigates before jumping into full flak territory.

    Peopel are way moreprotective of their vindicators and machariels than of their frigates :P


    Yeah that will be a fun thread. When (we all know that it's not "if") the Machariel gets nerfed, the Incursion guys' hair is going to catch fire.

    Right now I'm just happy they didn't touch my Daredevil too badly. I love that freaking thing, it's a pwnmobile against larger ships. I am still excited for the Cruor, though. Having a frigate that isn't the freaking Hyena with a web range bonus is going to be awesome.

    "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

    One of ours, ten of theirs.

    Best Meltdown Ever.
    Clansworth
    Deep Core Mining Inc.
    Caldari State
    #692 - 2014-02-26 10:10:45 UTC
    stg slate wrote:
    Worm:

    I enjoy the new bonuses drone direction, but I'm afraid of what the Gila will look like based on that.

    No matter what bandwidth you give the Gila I'll fill it full of Warrior 2's and a few drone nav computers and have 300% bonused, very fast Warrior 2's murdering frigates.

    Current game mechanics with bandwidth won't let you expand out this design to the Gila or Rattlesnake without creating a balance issue at those levels.



    I'm pretty sure the listed Worm bonus was to light drones only - which if carried over to the Gila, would be for medium drones only - so a flight of 5 lights would be equivalent to 5 lights - the 300% would not apply to the warriors...
    Kagura Nikon
    Native Freshfood
    Minmatar Republic
    #693 - 2014-02-26 10:13:21 UTC
    Swiftstrike1 wrote:
    I think these changes look good. My only reservation is the afterburner theme for Sansha ships. In my experience, nobody uses afterburners outside of PvE.



    Then your experience in pvp is very bad. No offense intended, but outside of the realm of bubbles AB are used A LOT in pvp. In fact we usually shun on anyone in our fleets using MWD except on hacs.

    "If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
    Akrasjel Lanate
    Immemorial Coalescence Administration
    Immemorial Coalescence
    #694 - 2014-02-26 10:14:38 UTC
    CCP Rise wrote:

  • We need a missile based pirate faction - yes! We didn't want to use an existing faction for this for a few different reasons (Imagine the rage if Angel turned into missiles or Guristas just became Caldari), but we would like to address it as soon as possible. I don't know when that will be, but it won't be never.


    • That would mean Intaki Syndicate or Mordu's Legion Straight

    CEO of Lanate Industries

    Citizen of Solitude
    Kagura Nikon
    Native Freshfood
    Minmatar Republic
    #695 - 2014-02-26 10:15:39 UTC
    Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
    Kagura Nikon wrote:
    Arthur Aihaken wrote:
    When can we see the cruisers and battleships?



    We probably is testign waters with the frigates before jumping into full flak territory.

    Peopel are way moreprotective of their vindicators and machariels than of their frigates :P


    Yeah that will be a fun thread. When (we all know that it's not "if") the Machariel gets nerfed, the Incursion guys' hair is going to catch fire.

    Right now I'm just happy they didn't touch my Daredevil too badly. I love that freaking thing, it's a pwnmobile against larger ships. I am still excited for the Cruor, though. Having a frigate that isn't the freaking Hyena with a web range bonus is going to be awesome.



    Funny I don't like is much. The cruor is too slow. It will web the other ship. Get in the enemy web range .. be webbed.. and never be able to reach the 7km range to use its neuts :/

    It needs (as a ship that has HALF minmatar blood) to be at least as fast as the sansha ship (base speed wise) that is made from the 2 slowest races. Otherwise this ship is LESS useful than now on an unique role, and just become hyena version b1.

    "If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
    SubStandard Rin
    School of Applied Knowledge
    Caldari State
    #696 - 2014-02-26 10:26:23 UTC
    My thought on why the Gurista ships was "bad" before.

    Guristas: basicly here we got split dammage types.... Missiles & Drones this is the key issue why they aren't use more in pvp. splitting dammage lowers the dps and makes them alot harder to fit good for pvp.


    Your first iteration : you still got split dammage but a twist that "might" work on the Worm but i think your going to end up poorly with the bigger ships. Gurista ships needs a better solution IMHO and please raise the dronebay to 30 atleast so you can get 3 wings of drones in a dedicated drone boat. Still i don't like the new idea.


    and the Blood problem is the neuting/Nos on smaller ships
    a neuting friggate have low efficency on a cruiser while a cruiser with Neuts can clean a friggate clean of cap very fast.
    thus Nos is good on frigs as it keeps you alive longer now this is not a bad thing just pointing it out. The issue is low range of neuts, slow ships (armor tanked),

    Blood should get a bonus to Neut/Vamp range as a role bonus additionaly instead of the "band aid" of old way of neuting. ....
    This would push blood to be able to neut kite an opponent compared to today where you hope you land on 0 and start neuting and get him neuted before he get out of range. .....Range on neuts make it more interesting in my opion.. kiting option... can engage kiters to try and catch them etc.




    Dysgenesis
    Dhoomcats
    #697 - 2014-02-26 10:26:50 UTC
    I do like the attempt to introduce or preserve the unique feel of the pirate ships through their bonuses. I do like the nos change for bloods and the afterburner change for sansha. I am delighted in the recognition of the importance of the serpentis web bonus.

    The gurista drone change whilst interesting has some serious ramifications for the Gila and rattlesnake if it remains in its current form for those ships.

    Does the bonus only apply for specific sizes of drones, if so will the rattlesnake get a large and sentry bonus? There will be a resultant significant nerf to the Gila and rattlesnake in the use of smaller drones. Especially if the Gila only has 20 bandwith.

    Personally I would like to see them able to launch more than 5 drones but keeping bandwidths similar to now (so 10 warriors / valkyries or 5 sentries from a rattlesnake) but I suppose that would make the servers cry (or maybe it wouldn't as no-one would use them for sentry fleets over a domi).





    Luscius Uta
    #698 - 2014-02-26 10:31:47 UTC
    Worm:

    I'm gonna start with that ship, since it both has most interesting changes and was in the greatest need of a buff.
    First, I think that 300% drone bonus will be OP (for a frigate), since it gives you 8 effective light drones, while any other subcapital drone boat doesn't give you more than 7.5 (and you also have spare drones which makes trying to kill your drones a pointless task for most people who will fight you). There is a reason why other drone-focused frigates like Ishkur or Astero don't have a drone damage bonus, it's called balance. What I would do is give it 50 m^3 drone bay (effectively putting the old bonus from Gallente Frigate skill into the ship's hull) and keep the old drone bandwidth, while replacing the Gallente frigate bonus with 20% bonus to drone hitpoints per level. Old special ability was also rather questionable and I would put a 25% bonus to Light Missile and Rocket Launcher rate of fire in its place.

    Succubus:

    Afterburner bonus is nice, good to see CCP still coming with new bonuses instead of predictably recycling old ones (Vagabond and Deimos, I'm looking at you). However it's still gonna be outruned by anything with a mwd, so a scram-fitted brawler will be the most common use, I guess.

    Crour

    Changes look good, nothing else to comment. On a somewhat related note, Bhaalgorn might deserve an unique model, like other two Blood ships.

    Daredevil

    Unless you're gonna make a blaster kiter (lol wtf), falloff bonus will be pretty much useless. I would go with 5% damage bonus while reducing special ability bonus to 150%, leaving you with 6.25 effective turrets with Gallente Frigate V. It also deserves a small drone bay.

    Dramiel

    No significant changes. Drone bay on this ship never made much sense though.

    Workarounds are not bugfixes.
    Clansworth
    Deep Core Mining Inc.
    Caldari State
    #699 - 2014-02-26 10:31:48 UTC
    Akrasjel Lanate wrote:
    CCP Rise wrote:

  • We need a missile based pirate faction - yes! We didn't want to use an existing faction for this for a few different reasons (Imagine the rage if Angel turned into missiles or Guristas just became Caldari), but we would like to address it as soon as possible. I don't know when that will be, but it won't be never.


    • That would mean Intaki Syndicate or Mordu's Legion Straight


    Which unfortunately aren't very 'piratey' - merc/privateer is more accurate... As much as I'd love to have mordu's based ships (especially since I'm already WAY LP'd up in mordu), they certainly don't make sense as a pirate faction. Yes, they need their own faction design, but at the same time, they are so small-scale (a single station?) that it's hard to envision them designing their own ships. Some great modu's faction mods though would be awesome.

    I really think this needs a whole new faction to come in the game.. shake things up in npc-null a bit. Lets see what happens when a pirate faction comes in and starts to take over a current npc factions home. What if a pirate faction sprang forth from teh drone regions (nestled conveniently between caldari and minmatar space). Would explain their 'late' entrance to the world. The problem is that they couldn't rightly take over space in kalevala or other near-empire drone space, as that's all player-sov - but they could take a few systems from thukker's rather large expanse.
    ChromeStriker
    Sebiestor Tribe
    Minmatar Republic
    #700 - 2014-02-26 10:34:49 UTC
    CCP Ytterbium wrote:
    Hey guys,

    We really need some more rants and complains to be going on in this thread please. All the confusion caused by the positive comments is getting to CCP Rise's head - he's becoming irrational and randomly attacking various people in the office. We'd use the straight-jacket to tie him up for a while, but it's currently being occupied by CCP Fozzie as he's having his daily drooling fit.

    Thank you for your cooperation citizens.


    Ok let me see what i can do....

    *cough*

    OH MY GOD what do you think your doing? do you even lift?

    THE CRUOR

    Amarr Frigate Bonus:
    15% bonus to Energy Vampire and Energy Neutralizer effectiveness

    Minmatar Frigate Bonus:
    20% bonus to Stasis Webifier range (was 10% bonus to Stasis Webifier effectiveness)

    Role Bonus:
    100% bonus to Small Energy Turret damage
    note: Energy Vampires operate as though your capacitor is empty (this wording is work in progress)

    how many backwards contradictions do you need??

    A bonus to web range, on a hull thats restricted to a 6km Nos range (T2)? Small lasers will even have trouble tracking at those ranges unless your moving at a crawl. And we all know a slow frigate is a dead frigate.

    Umm...

    You also missed a full stop... i wont tell you where Twisted

    No Worries