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Either Eliminate or Enhance Attributes

Author
JetStream Drenard
Jerkasaurus Wrecks Inc.
Sedition.
#21 - 2014-02-25 02:40:11 UTC
Flaming Forum Spammer wrote:
OP never played DnD... Attributes make the world go 'round and some better at something than another by focus and design. bards need their charisma, barbarians their strength, monks their wisdom and etc... same for eve. make it so there is no sense of sacrifice to pursue various avenues robs you of even your own life experiences, devastates your talents... basically turns EvE into the worst public school in America. ******* Socialist Duck. (capitalists are pigs, socialists are ducks and commies are herrings -deal wit it). Created Equal, but thereafter everyone isn't.

There is a rather large difference though. Attributes are -supposed- to represent a person and a person can not remap their intelligence or willpower, and most RPGs force you to pick attributes that you are then stuck with in perpetuity just like a real person gets at birth. Plus those attributes affect more then just how fast you learn specific skills, they also affect how well you perform at certain actions so the OP does have a point.. in part. But Eve is unlike any of the many RPGs i have ever played and in the future, perhaps not only would humans have jump clones, but also the capability to remap their intelligence.
My problem with implants is their size. have you ever noticed that an implant takes up 1 cubic meter? And you can fit 10 of them in your head?? Are we all suffering from some form of extreme gigantism or something??? I would be surprised if a human has 10 cubic CM of free space in their skull let alone 10 cubic Meters...
Shantetha
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#22 - 2014-02-25 02:50:25 UTC
Aliventi wrote:

I personally do not like attributes. I feel that attributes and attribute implants (attribute implants are another argument all by themselves) do not offer a meaningful, entertaining, and useful choice and consequence over not having them at all. There are many that disagree with me.
To me I think it would make a great deal of sense to remove attributes and attribute implants from Eve. Then allow all training to be done at a 2700SP/hr rate that is deposited in to a capped (1-3 mil SP) free SP pool. To train skills you apply SP selecting the skill, choose how much SP to apply and hit apply. I can explain that system to you in 2 sentences. Try explaining the current attribute/attribute implant/remap system to a noob in 2 sentences in such a way that they will understand. I doubt you really could. A simple elegant system, IMO, is better for Eve than the system we currently possess.


Simple elegant, still leaves room for interesting Implants to remain in those spots. (slave crystals virtue etc. w/ ability stat removed)
Seliah
Red Cloud Vigil
#23 - 2014-02-25 08:34:39 UTC
Aliventi wrote:

To me I think it would make a great deal of sense to remove attributes and attribute implants from Eve. Then allow all training to be done at a 2700SP/hr rate that is deposited in to a capped (1-3 mil SP) free SP pool. To train skills you apply SP selecting the skill, choose how much SP to apply and hit apply.


You should check out Perpetuum then. They've got a system like that, except the amount of SP you can store isn't capped.

Aliventi wrote:

I can explain that system to you in 2 sentences. Try explaining the current attribute/attribute implant/remap system to a noob in 2 sentences in such a way that they will understand. I doubt you really could.


Of course you can explain your system in 2 sentences and not the current one, because your system offers a lot less possibilities, making it easier to explain.

I'm personnally strongly against the idea of removing attributes. As people said before, they play a very important role in skill training if you're planning ahead correctly, and they add some variety and choice making for your implants.

However, enhancing their uses could be nice. Attaching (minor) bonuses to each attribute could be interesting, although I'm not sure that would bring anything really new compared to slot1-5 implants (a basic tradeoff between skill training speed and various bonuses).

Here's an idea, don't know if it's a good one : instead of having just 5 attributes, you have more, like 10. While some of them (the original 5, let's say) are used to boost skill training time, the others just provide different passive bonuses, but don't improve any skills. You can then invest your points in any of these 10 attributes, chosing between less skill training time or more passive bonuses. Slot1-5 implants could give you more points to invest rather than simply boost 1 given attribute. This system would offer a slightly deeper level of customization and give a slight edge to players who feel they don't need to train skills fast and prefer focusing on.
Chihiro Chugakusei
Fortune Hunters - Navy Operations
#24 - 2014-02-25 21:10:41 UTC
Shrewd Tsero wrote:
Chihiro Chugakusei wrote:
OP, what you are proposing (at least as far as having secondary affects) is way too complicated to ever really be implemented. The game is in a precarious balance, and all sorts of things can break that, your idea included.

Could it be removed? Maybe, but I don't see any major reason to do it (or not do it, for that matter). FYI the system itself has come a long way, and is a lot simpler than it used to be. Attributes used to be a real cluster ****.


Most likely. I haven't even scratched the surface, so I can't say for sure. As someone already stated, though, hardwiring essentially already does what I suggested, but in a more controlled way. I would venture to say, however, that if a reason for keeping something can neither be argued for or against, really, then it's probably worth questioning it's validity. Honestly, to me, it's one of the few mechanics in Eve that seems "tacked on".


As an aside, not all the people on the forums are negative and hostile. Just a lot of them. And besides, it gives you a chance to appreciate when someone is genuinely kind and logical. Don't let the stalkers get you down. :)


Thanks.
Lol

Keep it up, +1

Anhenka
The New Federation
Sigma Grindset
#25 - 2014-02-25 21:21:33 UTC
Seliah wrote:

Here's an idea, don't know if it's a good one : instead of having just 5 attributes, you have more, like 10. While some of them (the original 5, let's say) are used to boost skill training time, the others just provide different passive bonuses, but don't improve any skills. You can then invest your points in any of these 10 attributes, chosing between less skill training time or more passive bonuses. Slot1-5 implants could give you more points to invest rather than simply boost 1 given attribute. This system would offer a slightly deeper level of customization and give a slight edge to players who feel they don't need to train skills fast and prefer focusing on.


It's a cool idea that I have not seen before, so that's a plus. Unfortunately, it has an issue you may not have thought of.

A new player who still needs lots of skills to get on the same skill level as a much older player really has to get the most out of his attributes to get there faster.

An old player who already has all the skills on a char trained that he wants to can instead spec away as many points from learning skills into skills that enhance their ship. This creates a situation where the full potential of a char and ship cannot be fully unlocked until you have stopped training the char to acquire SP and started just using the attributes as a stat boosters.

Malcanis' Law that states "Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of ‘new players’, that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players."

This is one of those situations. Typing any sort of in game ship performance to attributes will primarily benefit older players to the detriment of newer ones. Not a situation we need when new players already feel at a major disadvantage when starting.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#26 - 2014-02-25 23:03:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Reaver Glitterstim
Noxisia Arkana wrote:
It adds a little spice and rewards players that are able to make long term training plans and commit to them. Delayed gratification is integral to EvE. Any mechanic that reinforces it (via 1 yr remaps), is great.
^truth

Here's an example of what the other end of the spectrum looks like: my eveboard page

Look at your eveboard page, and compare it with mine. Look at yours and my age and skillpoints. Look at yours and my average sp/hour. This is what can happen when you take advantage of the attribute system. It's pretty big, like the gap between yours and my average sp/hour.

Anhenka wrote:
Malcanis' Law that states "Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of ‘new players’, that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players."

This is one of those situations. Typing any sort of in game ship performance to attributes will primarily benefit older players to the detriment of newer ones. Not a situation we need when new players already feel at a major disadvantage when starting.

Absolutely. It would be a lot easier for a several years old pilot or even a middle aged pilot who had trained well (such as myself) to remap attributes to whatever I needed for flying, while new players will want to remap attributes to what they need to train.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."

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