These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

[Kronos] Pirate Faction Frigates

First post First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Rykki Atruin
Independant Praetorian Corp
#381 - 2014-02-25 20:25:09 UTC
I'm one of the few pilots who actually uses a Worm, and I'm a bit torn here. I'm glad to get rid of the increased drone bay in favor of a HUGE drone damage buff, but I'm sad to see my missile velocity bonus go away. I use my trusty little Guristas frigate for exploration and tend to punch above my weight so to speak. So far I've run DED 3/10 sites with her quite easily simply because I can kite everything.

I've never been fond of the kinetic damage bonus and it seems to me that it's a distinctly Caldari bonus which this ship already has in the form of it's resist bonus (which I definitely don't want to lose!).

Semi-nomadic corp seeking new and veteran players
Justin Cody
War Firm
#382 - 2014-02-25 20:26:32 UTC
Peter Powers wrote:
i hate to be so negative, but you asked for opinions, an i have one:

unimaginative changes.

AB speed bonus for sansha makes sense how?
Speed is a Minmatar thing, Minmatar, as in "can't afford as high-tech-as-other-races-so-goes-for-an-speed-option".
While Sansha is one of the most technologically advanced factions in eve.
What could have been some imaginative solution? how about some specific anti-drone ecm, that messes with bandwidths or drone control? That would actually sound like a technology sansha could have, doesn't it?

the blood changes actually make sense, even though they are not really creative.

guristas: drones used to be a gallente thing that amarr would sort-of-use-as-well-but-not-as-much-as-gallente.. but now we have amarr, gallente both drone operators.. so yeah, why not a lore wise caldari based faction being even more drone focused as well...


the blood change ends up being the only one that makes real sense, the other two don't really diversify those factions from the 4 main races, infact they seem to equal them out even more, rather than creating a rock paper scissors situation.



They have decided to make sansha suck even more duhhhh. I mean it even comes with a nice phat PG nerf. Y'know cause lasers aren't one of the most intensive weapon classes to fit to begin with. Never mind that you're stuck shield tanking..3 effective...wait sorry 2 effective slots. The succubus's anemic damage hasn't changed one bit. That increased damage bonus was just a transfer of said bonus to the proper place. The AB bonus does absolutely zero in terms of today's meta. I guess for low sec FW novice plexes its ok...and you might kite if you beam fit it. Seems an awful niche to fill.
Lugalzagezi666
#383 - 2014-02-25 20:27:13 UTC
PinkKnife wrote:

125% bonus to Energy Neutralizer drone effectiveness

Not sure if serious...
Windman Advena
Facehoof
#384 - 2014-02-25 20:29:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Windman Advena
worm:
There is't any frigates with drone dps bonus, so 5 effective drones is maximum. 8 effective drones looks disbalanced.
200% bonus will be fine.
And it's not a missle boat at all. Maybe split drone damage modification between role and gallente bonuces.
Role bonus: 100% more drone damage and hitpoints.
Gallente per level: 10% to drone damage and hitpoints

Cruor:
Current variant allow to use only 1 bonus (web range/neut str) at a time. Maybe it's planned.
My wariant:
Matar per level +20% to web range (20km)
Amarr per level +40% to energy neutralaser/vampire range (19.8km) only range

Succubus:
I see it usefull only in very strange configs. For me it's OK.
PinkKnife
The Cuddlefish
Ethereal Dawn
#385 - 2014-02-25 20:29:54 UTC
Lugalzagezi666 wrote:
PinkKnife wrote:

125% bonus to Energy Neutralizer drone effectiveness

Not sure if serious...


Play with the numbers to whatever degree you need. As long as the neut effects are approximately the same as having them fit on the ship I'm fine with it. I haven't looked at the small EN drone rates, so yeah the 125% was a guess to get the same effectiveness. Make it 300% if thats more appropriate.

Trade offs you don't spend cap to neut out others, and you don't have to worry about neut range.
Nyancat Audeles
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#386 - 2014-02-25 20:30:35 UTC
Lugalzagezi666 wrote:
PinkKnife wrote:

125% bonus to Energy Neutralizer drone effectiveness

Not sure if serious...

This is a complete joke
Johann Rascali
The Milkmen
Churn and Burn
#387 - 2014-02-25 20:31:44 UTC
Personally, I'd still like to see the Serpentis web bonus dropped to 7.5%. It's not like it wouldn't still be effective, just not crushingly so any more.

I always liked the idea of 5/7.5/10% on frig/cruiser/BS too.

Blanking signatures doesn't seem to work, so this is here.
Nyancat Audeles
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#388 - 2014-02-25 20:35:13 UTC
PinkKnife wrote:
Lugalzagezi666 wrote:
PinkKnife wrote:

125% bonus to Energy Neutralizer drone effectiveness

Not sure if serious...


Play with the numbers to whatever degree you need. As long as the neut effects are approximately the same as having them fit on the ship I'm fine with it. I haven't looked at the small EN drone rates, so yeah the 125% was a guess to get the same effectiveness. Make it 300% if thats more appropriate.

Trade offs you don't spend cap to neut out others, and you don't have to worry about neut range.

As long as it doesn't affect the neuts on the actual ship it might be a decent idea.
Nyancat Audeles
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#389 - 2014-02-25 20:36:12 UTC
Johann Rascali wrote:
Personally, I'd still like to see the Serpentis web bonus dropped to 7.5%. It's not like it wouldn't still be effective, just not crushingly so any more.

I always liked the idea of 5/7.5/10% on frig/cruiser/BS too.

Please, no.

Just no.

We had a gigantic threadnought on this a few days ago, and it's a terrible idea.

There's no need to change the Daredevil now that the other Pirate frigs are just as good.
Lugalzagezi666
#390 - 2014-02-25 20:37:26 UTC
PinkKnife wrote:
Lugalzagezi666 wrote:
PinkKnife wrote:

125% bonus to Energy Neutralizer drone effectiveness

Not sure if serious...


Play with the numbers to whatever degree you need. As long as the neut effects are approximately the same as having them fit on the ship I'm fine with it. I haven't looked at the small EN drone rates, so yeah the 125% was a guess to get the same effectiveness. Make it 300% if thats more appropriate.

Trade offs you don't spend cap to neut out others, and you don't have to worry about neut range.


Only difference is that any frigate can basically 2 shot them without even needing a web (same with any ship that can field flight of lights). They are literally useless.
Ganthrithor
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#391 - 2014-02-25 20:38:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Ganthrithor
Some thoughts:

  • The AB bonuses for Sansha ships should be cool, so long as they all get enough of a mobility buff that using prop mods on them isn't a waste of time generally (as I recall, Sansha ships have always been stupidly slow bricks. Phantasm, I'm looking at you!)
  • The "old nos" idea for the Blood Raider ships sounds good, but please don't stop there (more on this later)

  • I really don't get the Guristas theme change: OK, sure, the ships will do as much damage using two drones as an un-bonused ship would do with six, but you're still doing (and absorbing!) LESS damage at the end of the day than a bonused drone boat does with five drones while also presenting an opponent with even fewer targets to juggle if they try to shoot your drones down. I realize you're also giving it a bonus to missile damage, but there are already Gallente ships that get a drone bonus alongside a turret bonus, so that's hardly a unique selling point either.

    • Ok, nevermind the above, these ships aren't sub-par, they're like a Gallente ship but super-OP. The below still applies, I think :3

    You may want to consider branching those ships out into the realms of EWAR or something (Missile ships with bonuses to point and damp range could be interesting, maybe? Or maybe ships with little damage output but bonuses to both RSDs and ECM? Idk, just grasping at straws here.

  • I'm glad you're leaving the Serpentis web bonus alone, since it's literally the one and only selling point of those ships. Even with the 90% webs, Serp ships are incredibly frustrating hulls to try and use. The Vindicator works because it's a battleship, and battleship-sized armor mods provide a lot of punch in terms of tanking ability. The Vigilant and Daredevil are both just awful, awful ships to try and fit practically: they don't have enough lows to fit a relevant armor tank, and they don't have enough mid-slots to fit a decent shield tank while still fitting a point and web. They need either another low or another mid-- take your pick (I'd prefer a mid, but that's just me). They also lack utility highslots on the cruiser and battleship, which is very frustrating since you can't fit defensive neuts/nos or cloaks without gimping their dps so severely that they go back to being outclassed by any non-pirate ship that can fit a full compliment of weapons alongside a utility mod. You guys should really reduce their turret counts by one and increase their damage bonus to offset it.

  • Angel ships aren't exactly OP. I don't know how you can state that here with a straight face when the Mach just took a nut-shot from the warp-speed mechanics changes (it's now much, much harder to skirmish with since anything in the game can outrun you as soon as it comes time to warp anywhere), the Cynabal is straight-up outclassed as a ship by the Stratios in literally every metric (AND the Statios gets a covert cloak, because that's balanced), you already nerfed the Dramiel into irrelevance years ago (and that's taken another indirect nerf as a result of your interceptor buffs), and the whole lineup has suffered at the hands of the tracking enhancer nerf. The Angel line as a whole is not overpowered at all; if anything, those hulls struggle to justify their pricetags at this point. I say this as someone who owns literally all of them and has been a big Angel enthusiast in the past. I've mothballed my entire collection because there are simply plenty of better options to go with these days, most of which either cost less money or provide more utility. Or both.


A final thought:

  • You guys should be on the lookout for bonus combinations that don't synergize well at different module sizes. Your proposed web range and neut/nos transfer amount bonuses on the Blood ships are a good example: these bonuses will work very well together on the Bhaalgorn, where web range and neut range will be roughly equal, but will synergize very poorly on the Cruor (where you'll have a standoff web bonus, but will have to close to scram range to use your neuts/nos anyway, greatly de-valuing the web range bonus). As an example, the Cruor should probably get a web range bonus, nos/neut amount, and a neut/nos range bonus a-la the Sentinel, so it can actually be useful at range. I think you guys should move beyond figuring out a blanket set of bonuses for entire ship lines and move to a system of unique bonuses for each hull that are still thematically-compatible but are tailored to the specifics of that platform. It makes sense given that hull size has a massive effect on what tactics are and aren't viable for a ship. Bonuses that work well at one size don't necessarily translate well to other hull classes.
Nyancat Audeles
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#392 - 2014-02-25 20:38:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Nyancat Audeles
NinjaStyle wrote:
the Cruor will still be crap with the short neut range there is no meaning in the web range when you have to be within 10km just to neut anyways.


I heard about this module called a "MWD"...

You should check it out. You know, before you make baseless assumptions.


On another note, the Dramiel could use a buff. It's not nearly as good any more...
PinkKnife
The Cuddlefish
Ethereal Dawn
#393 - 2014-02-25 20:40:03 UTC  |  Edited by: PinkKnife
Nyancat Audeles wrote:
PinkKnife wrote:
Lugalzagezi666 wrote:
PinkKnife wrote:

125% bonus to Energy Neutralizer drone effectiveness

Not sure if serious...


Play with the numbers to whatever degree you need. As long as the neut effects are approximately the same as having them fit on the ship I'm fine with it. I haven't looked at the small EN drone rates, so yeah the 125% was a guess to get the same effectiveness. Make it 300% if thats more appropriate.

Trade offs you don't spend cap to neut out others, and you don't have to worry about neut range.

As long as it doesn't affect the neuts on the actual ship it might be a decent idea.



The idea being to make it more friendly to range.

Have the drone neut rates be the same as the neuts on the boat rate. I don't know what equivalent bonus that would be (haven't done the math).

2x light neuts x 15% ship bonus = (neut drone bonus rate)x 2 drones...so whatever that variable is.

But it alleviates the range issue, and allows you to spend the highs on turrets and a nos. Which can then give you another low/mid.

You trade neut range and cap usage for potentially losing your drones. It also allows you to focus on web range/damage/tank in regards to fitting. Also makes you less "welp ecm gg".
Silivar Karkun
Doomheim
#394 - 2014-02-25 20:40:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Silivar Karkun
another version for the guristas:

WORM

Gallente Frigate Bonus:
10% to drone damage and hitpoints

Caldari Frigate Bonus:
10% to rocket and light missile max velocity

Role Bonus:
50% bonus to drones, rockets and light missile damage


Slot layout: 3H, 4M, 3L; 0 turrets, 2 launchers
Fittings: 40 PWG(+5), 180 CPU(+20)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 1100 / 500(-82) / 620(-3)
Capacitor (amount / recharge / cap per second) : 380(+30) / 212000 (-22375) / 1.79 (+.29)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 320(+33) / 3.8(+.31) / 965000 / 5.17s(+.42)
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 25 / 25
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 30km / 650 / 5
Sensor strength: 15
Signature radius: 40

the ship gets at full lvl V skills a 100% of damage for drones and a 100% bonus to missiles, but sacrifices its 4% resistance bonus. as compensation the ship gets a buffer in line with the rattlesnake, i mean, gets large buffer for its ship class, in this case a more than 1000 shield HP
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#395 - 2014-02-25 20:42:04 UTC
Nyancat Audeles wrote:
NinjaStyle wrote:
the Cruor will still be crap with the short neut range there is no meaning in the web range when you have to be within 10km just to neut anyways.


I heard about this module called a "MWD"...

You should check it out. You know, before you make baseless assumptions.


On another note, the Dramiel could use a buff. It's not nearly as good any more...


brawling cruor will die to my jerk scram kite incursus, I'm looking forward to it. unless they have deadspace nos, then they won't.
Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#396 - 2014-02-25 20:43:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Grath Telkin
To anybody complaining about the Worm.

Stop.


Full stop.

Run the numbers on it first before you complain. Think about what its going to be like using faction drones on your pirate shipo, or rather don't think and let me tell you what its going to be like:

Augmented Warriors

Shield -464 (dd5 580)
Armor -692 (dd5 865)
Structure -1040 (dd5 1300)

2196 (dd5 2745) total hp and Damage output per drone, 24 kinetic and 40 explosive every 4 seconds.(skills will bring this to 30/50 at max)

Republic Fleet Warriors

Shield -616 (dd5 770)
Armor -920 (dd5 1150)
Structure-576 (dd5 720)

2112 (dd5 2640) Total Hp and Damage output per drone, 60 explosive damage every 4 seconds. (Skills will bring this up to 75 at max)


Those are serious can's of whup ass. You have drones with the hit points of a frigate who punch extremely hard. You are effectively getting 8 drones worth of damage from 2 drones, and if you're engaged in one on one combat with another frigate, he'd be insane to go after your drones because it has two thousand hit points.

He would essentially have to kill you 6 times if he tried to kill off your drones first (once for each of your 5 drones and then once for you).

You should literally have zero complaints about that ship, its nothing short of amazing. Even for PVE, its absolutely amazing, as the drones will tank like a boss. In fact each of your light drones will have nearly twice the Hit points of its relative Heavy drone counterpart (above example - Beserker II has 1459 hp).

Let that sink in for a bit and think about what they're offering you in the new and 100% improved Worm.

EDIT: Drone Durability 5 will raise those totals by about 500 each, Damage totals will also go up 25% more as well

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
Challus Mercer
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#397 - 2014-02-25 20:45:05 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Morwennon wrote:
Will they still have the slightly odd 350 calibration for rigs, or will that be bumped up to 400 as was done for the empire faction ships?


For now the plan is to leave them at the awkward 350. We did have a discussion about this and I don't feel really strongly either way. 400 is nicer for consistency and cleanliness but there also isn't a need for the power boost from the extra 50.

Ah cmon, just make it 400. I dont think it would be OP if we could fit more T2 DPS rigs into pirate ships.
Lugalzagezi666
#398 - 2014-02-25 20:46:43 UTC
Nyancat Audeles wrote:
NinjaStyle wrote:
the Cruor will still be crap with the short neut range there is no meaning in the web range when you have to be within 10km just to neut anyways.


I heard about this module called a "MWD"...

You should check it out. You know, before you make baseless assumptions.


On another note, the Dramiel could use a buff. It's not nearly as good any more...


That changes nothing about what he said.

Cruor doesnt have the range on guns and neither neuts/nos to use its web bonus. Want to deal 100 scorch dps with pulses - you have to go into scram range. Want to neut your target so you actually can break its tank with 100dps - you have to go DEEP inside scram range. And only thing that awaits you there is being scrammed and counterwebbed and losing any mobility advantage you had (with 90% web).

The only ships it can help you with are nano kiters - that will damp you to oblivion anyway.
Naomi Anthar
#399 - 2014-02-25 20:48:38 UTC
<3 <3 <3 CCP Rise <3 <3 <3

I love you , it's not physical love tho. But i still do.

You made great justice for sansha and blood lineup (guristas aswell) ... now the description of those ships is not joke anymore

<3 <3 <3 CCP Rise <3 <3 <3
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#400 - 2014-02-25 20:49:16 UTC
Grath Telkin wrote:
To anybody complaining about the Worm.

Stop.


Full stop.

Run the numbers on it first before you complain. Think about what its going to be like using faction drones on your pirate shipo, or rather don't think and let me tell you what its going to be like:

Augmented Warriors

Shield -464
Armor -692
Structure -1040

2196 total hp and Damage output per drone, 24 kinetic and 40 explosive every 4 seconds.

Republic Fleet Warriors

Shield -616
Armor -920
Structure-576

2112 Total Hp and Damage output per drone, 60 explosive damage every 4 seconds.


Those are serious can's of whup ass. You have drones with the hit points of a frigate who punch extremely hard. You are effectively getting 8 drones worth of damage from 2 drones, and if you're engaged in one on one combat with another frigate, he'd be insane to go after your drones because it has two thousand hit points.

He would essentially have to kill you 6 times if he tried to kill off your drones first (once for each of your 5 drones and then once for you).

You should literally have zero complaints about that ship, its nothing short of amazing. Even for PVE, its absolutely amazing, as the drones will tank like a boss. In fact each of your light drones will have nearly twice the Hit points of its relative Heavy drone counterpart (above example - Beserker II has 1459 hp).

Let that sink in for a bit and think about what they're offering you in the new and 100% improved Worm.


I'm not saying bad, I'm just saying pretty odd, and with not much explanation.