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Feedback Request - Margin trading and accurate market UI

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Phoenix Jones
Small-Arms Fire
#581 - 2014-02-25 20:09:29 UTC
Well why not allow the market to track reputation?

Add a new line to market. Reputation. Each time a scam happens, persons reputation drops.

Reputation would be based on their ingame reputation in the market they are in, jita would be caldari, dodixie gallente, etc.

So each time it happens, whallop, down their rep goes (aka their credit score). The game already tracks it in order to determine tax on orders. People want to scam, make them put their rep on the line.

Scam enough and the station red flags your orders. They still go up but there is a big red bar denoting (possible scam).

They want to remove red bar? Build rep back up.

Scammer exists, reputation matters.

Note that I am not advocating that the persons name show up in the market, no, just the reputation of the buyer who puts out buy orders.

Scams should probably whallop allot of rep also, maybe as much as 2 points per rejected bounced check.

Yaay!!!!

Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#582 - 2014-02-25 20:29:01 UTC
Phoenix Jones wrote:
Well why not allow the market to track reputation?

Add a new line to market. Reputation. Each time a scam happens, persons reputation drops.

Reputation would be based on their ingame reputation in the market they are in, jita would be caldari, dodixie gallente, etc.

So each time it happens, whallop, down their rep goes (aka their credit score). The game already tracks it in order to determine tax on orders. People want to scam, make them put their rep on the line.

Scam enough and the station red flags your orders. They still go up but there is a big red bar denoting (possible scam).

They want to remove red bar? Build rep back up.

Scammer exists, reputation matters.

Note that I am not advocating that the persons name show up in the market, no, just the reputation of the buyer who puts out buy orders.

Scams should probably whallop allot of rep also, maybe as much as 2 points per rejected bounced check.



Creating a mechanic for reputation would be alright by me. Hell, I'd like the ability to track who actually owns the order, tbh.

I once proposed something like it. Industrial, Financial, and Market Analysis Agents (think locator agents that track isk movement). This would allow you to hunt down the person funding that Margin Scamming alt.
TheSmokingHertog
Julia's Interstellar Trade Emperium
#583 - 2014-02-25 22:10:53 UTC
A market reputation column would be very welcome.

"Dogma is kind of like quantum physics, observing the dogma state will change it." ~ CCP Prism X

"Schrödinger's Missile. I dig it." ~ Makari Aeron

-= "Brain in a Box on Singularity" - April 2015 =-

Mu-Shi Ai
Hosono House
#584 - 2014-02-26 00:05:44 UTC
Jta Grl wrote:
IMO Margin Trading is bad right now because new market players have no way of knowing such mechanic exists before they try to fill an order. I haven't played the tutorials for some time, but I also don't believe there is a marketing tutorial out there that teaches about it. Not even the skill text tells what happens when the buyer has no credits to pay the order. This makes the scam require little ability to pull.


This only makes sense if you believe the Margin Trading skill is what scams you. You've fallen for the scam as soon as you've purchased the overpriced items. What happens when you attempt to sell the items is no different than what would happen if the order had been made with "legitimate" intent and you tried to sell to it when the wallet couldn't cover the cost. In both cases, the orders fail for the same exact reason. The only difference is that you're angry because you're sitting on massively overpriced items, while a knowledgeable seller likely wouldn't be angry because they'd be operating within a normal value range for the items. They could just sell at the next opportunity, and wouldn't have to worry about losing perhaps hundreds of millions of ISK on a poorly-researched deal.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#585 - 2014-02-26 00:35:08 UTC
Mu-Shi Ai wrote:
Jta Grl wrote:
IMO Margin Trading is bad right now because new market players have no way of knowing such mechanic exists before they try to fill an order. I haven't played the tutorials for some time, but I also don't believe there is a marketing tutorial out there that teaches about it. Not even the skill text tells what happens when the buyer has no credits to pay the order. This makes the scam require little ability to pull.


This only makes sense if you believe the Margin Trading skill is what scams you. You've fallen for the scam as soon as you've purchased the overpriced items. What happens when you attempt to sell the items is no different than what would happen if the order had been made with "legitimate" intent and you tried to sell to it when the wallet couldn't cover the cost. In both cases, the orders fail for the same exact reason. The only difference is that you're angry because you're sitting on massively overpriced items, while a knowledgeable seller likely wouldn't be angry because they'd be operating within a normal value range for the items. They could just sell at the next opportunity, and wouldn't have to worry about losing perhaps hundreds of millions of ISK on a poorly-researched deal.


To be honest, I don't think you are being fair.

The margin trade skill creates a situation unfamiliar to a new player to the game. Namely that buy orders may be placed by a player that doesn't have the funds to actually complete the order.

Most games simply don't allow such a situation to exist, and that leads to ignorance about the reliability of buy orders. That ignorance should be addressed, either via a market tutorial, by the UI, or somehow. Once that information is readily available, then it is the greedy and dumb that fall for the scam, as it should be!

Mu-Shi Ai
Hosono House
#586 - 2014-02-26 01:31:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Mu-Shi Ai
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
To be honest, I don't think you are being fair.

The margin trade skill creates a situation unfamiliar to a new player to the game. Namely that buy orders may be placed by a player that doesn't have the funds to actually complete the order.

Most games simply don't allow such a situation to exist, and that leads to ignorance about the reliability of buy orders. That ignorance should be addressed, either via a market tutorial, by the UI, or somehow. Once that information is readily available, then it is the greedy and dumb that fall for the scam, as it should be!


Most games don't even allow buy orders in the first place. Player markets in MMOs are usually 100% seller's markets. So really what you're saying is that, hey, there's a new thing to learn about when you start playing EVE. And my response is ... well yeah, duh.

I am all for the game educating players about the market as part of an in-depth tutorial, but I am pretty much against altering the market interface so that there exists some sort of constant "reminder" that everybody has to see even if they're not ignorant, or haven't been for a very long time.

At the same time, I think EVE has a rather unique tradition of relying on shared experience between users as a way of educating players and building up cohesive community bonds that keep people playing the game. As such, I'm not sure that one can really claim injury through simple ignorance if they've avoided the forums almost entirely UNTIL a problem crops up, at which point they only turn to the forums to whine, demand nerfs, and so on. I'm sorry, but I was embroiled in forum research and communication with other traders well before I had hundreds of millions of ISK (now tens of billions) to devote to that career path. Now you have people coming straight off the boat, flush with ISK from the sale of PLEX, convinced that they can jump right in and start trading with minimal knowledge of the markets and of the intricacies of trading in EVE. The Margin Trading scam is the single most talked about scam associated with trading. A cursory combing of the forums for scams would certainly bring up numerous hits on the topic, and asking anybody about scams to watch out for would instantly yield responses about it and people willing to describe in detail how it works and how to avoid it.

There is no excuse, in other words, for being ignorant here. Actually, let me clarify that. It's entirely reasonable to be ignorant about the intricacies of trading in EVE. But it's not reasonable to be ignorant AND claim that the mechanics somehow injured you when you fall for an easily avoidable scam. Your own ignorance is the cause of your injury, not some in-game skill. If you get burned, you use the experience as motivation to never be burned the same way again, and to explore the very ample resources at your disposal to aid in that pursuit. What exactly is "unfair" about this position?
Blue Absinthe
Wardec U
#587 - 2014-02-26 02:54:38 UTC
Allow asset lending (and so shorting). You could have term lending through a market screen or contract and short term lending by a checkbox of 'allow lending' when you have an asset for sale or that you intend to leave in a location long term with a game mechanic for when you get bought in.

It would really evolve the trading game by allowing short speculation, earning a return on game assets.

This would alleviate the issue if you introduced a penalty (say 10% of asset value) for failed margin trades. Failing to cover a negative amount results in the asset being frozen until the negative ism balance is covered.


Worth noting the penalty could work by itself. I think people would be queuing up to inflict losses on the margin scammers...
Mu-Shi Ai
Hosono House
#588 - 2014-02-26 04:39:42 UTC
Blue Absinthe wrote:
Allow asset lending (and so shorting). You could have term lending through a market screen or contract and short term lending by a checkbox of 'allow lending' when you have an asset for sale or that you intend to leave in a location long term with a game mechanic for when you get bought in.

It would really evolve the trading game by allowing short speculation, earning a return on game assets.

This would alleviate the issue if you introduced a penalty (say 10% of asset value) for failed margin trades. Failing to cover a negative amount results in the asset being frozen until the negative ism balance is covered.


Worth noting the penalty could work by itself. I think people would be queuing up to inflict losses on the margin scammers...


You're not actually suggesting a solution to the Margin Trading scam here. You're suggesting a bunch of unrelated stuff that only introduces new problems to the game and wouldn't solve anything. Could you please explain what you imagine a buyer whose Margin Trade order fails is getting away with currently? Nothing is being borrowed or lent, so there's no reason for anybody's wallet to go negative.
Jta Grl
2 Pingeons Incorporated
#589 - 2014-02-26 12:59:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Jta Grl
Mu-Shi Ai wrote:
Jta Grl wrote:
IMO Margin Trading is bad right now because new market players have no way of knowing such mechanic exists before they try to fill an order. I haven't played the tutorials for some time, but I also don't believe there is a marketing tutorial out there that teaches about it. Not even the skill text tells what happens when the buyer has no credits to pay the order. This makes the scam require little ability to pull.


This only makes sense if you believe the Margin Trading skill is what scams you. You've fallen for the scam as soon as you've purchased the overpriced items. What happens when you attempt to sell the items is no different than what would happen if the order had been made with "legitimate" intent and you tried to sell to it when the wallet couldn't cover the cost. In both cases, the orders fail for the same exact reason. The only difference is that you're angry because you're sitting on massively overpriced items, while a knowledgeable seller likely wouldn't be angry because they'd be operating within a normal value range for the items. They could just sell at the next opportunity, and wouldn't have to worry about losing perhaps hundreds of millions of ISK on a poorly-researched deal.

That makes no sense. The only reason ppl buy those overpriced items is because they see a buy order in the market they can fill, only it is a Margin Trading order. I personally never fell for this scam, so I'm not angry. I just feel this is not fair play because in this case the game rules are not clear to the players.
Mu-Shi Ai
Hosono House
#590 - 2014-02-26 13:41:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Mu-Shi Ai
Jta Grl wrote:
That makes no sense. The only reason ppl buy those overpriced items is because they see a buy order in the market they can fill, only it is a Margin Trading order. I personally never fell for this scam, so I'm not angry. I just feel this is not fair play because in this case the game rules are not clear to the players.


It makes perfect sense. Nobody forces these people to buy the items. It's not like, when you see what appears to be a "great deal," you lose all capacity for control and are arm-twisted into making the purchase. That buy order could disappear for any number of reasons. It turns out that the reason why it disappears is because there isn't enough ISK in the wallet to cover it. But imagine that somebody with the same items purchased at true market value got there ahead of you and attempted to fill the buy order. It would fail just the same. Only this person wouldn't be angry, because they didn't buy overpriced items. They can sell those market-value items to somebody else later on, and feel nothing more than perhaps a twinge of regret that they didn't make an absolute killing on that too-good-to-be-true buy order. The person who bought massively overpriced items, though, is distraught. But you can avoid this with market research. If a single buy order is what you're using to gauge the value of something, then you're trading the wrong way. Pure and simple. What happened to you is your own fault. The Margin Trading skill is not responsible.
Jta Grl
2 Pingeons Incorporated
#591 - 2014-02-26 13:54:44 UTC
Mu-Shi Ai wrote:
Jta Grl wrote:
That makes no sense. The only reason ppl buy those overpriced items is because they see a buy order in the market they can fill, only it is a Margin Trading order. I personally never fell for this scam, so I'm not angry. I just feel this is not fair play because in this case the game rules are not clear to the players.


It makes perfect sense. Nobody forces these people to buy the items. It's not like, when you see what appears to be a "great deal," you lose all capacity for control and are arm-twisted into making the purchase. That buy order could disappear for any number of reasons. It turns out that the reason why it disappears is because there isn't enough ISK in the wallet to cover it. But imagine that somebody with the same items purchased at true market value got there ahead of you and attempted to fill the buy order. It would fail just the same. Only this person wouldn't be angry, because they didn't buy overpriced items. They can sell those market-value items to somebody else later on, and feel nothing more than perhaps a twinge of regret that they didn't make an absolute killing on that too-good-to-be-true buy order. The person who bought massively overpriced items, though, is distraught. But you can avoid this with market research. If a single buy order is what you're using to gauge the value of something, then you're trading the wrong way. Pure and simple. What happened to you is your own fault. The Margin Trading skill is not responsible.


If players knew there is a possibility of the order not being filled when they sell the item to it they would buy overpriced items with conscience of the risk. This is not like a double isk scam. New market players have no means to understand the risk other than other locals screaming Margin Trading scam to the contracts that show up.
Jta Grl
2 Pingeons Incorporated
#592 - 2014-02-26 13:59:09 UTC
In other words, ppl who fall for Margin Trading scams are trusting solely on the game mechanics, wich fails to deliever proper information to them.
Mu-Shi Ai
Hosono House
#593 - 2014-02-26 14:21:31 UTC
Jta Grl wrote:
If players knew there is a possibility of the order not being filled when they sell the item to it they would buy overpriced items with conscience of the risk. This is not like a double isk scam. New market players have no means to understand the risk other than other locals screaming Margin Trading scam to the contracts that show up.


Yes, they are able to understand the risk. It's called learning about market trading in EVE before you dump hundreds of millions of PLEX cash into a scam. The Margin Trading scam is probably the single most talked about scam in EVE right now. New players could simply type "scam" into a forum search and find posts about it. Before getting into trading, they could go to the forums and create a post asking about trading-related scams, and they would certainly receive numerous replies detailing the Margin Trading scam, how it works, and how to detect/avoid it. This alone is a far better antidote than anything mechanical that you could introduce to the game, because not only is it effective in that superior "teach a man to fish" way, but it doesn't impose unfair limitations on a skill that enormous numbers of traders use legitimately to do their business.
Mu-Shi Ai
Hosono House
#594 - 2014-02-26 14:26:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Mu-Shi Ai
Jta Grl wrote:
In other words, ppl who fall for Margin Trading scams are trusting solely on the game mechanics, wich fails to deliever proper information to them.


Your analysis is a bit shallow. The Margin Trading scam preys on the wishful thinking of the victim. Being ignorant about market mechanics feeds into that, but is not the sole cause of it. I would never have fallen for this scam even as a newb, because while I was at one point ignorant of the market mechanics, I was also duly skeptical of diving into something of which I was so lacking in knowledge. Should I somehow be considered exceptional in this regard? I feel like my experience is actually fairly normal, or at least it was back when I started.

Anyhow, the notion that anybody comes straight off the boat into EVE without any concept of the game's culture, that it's well known for being a lion's den of massive scams, political intrigue, espionage, and so on, is just absurd. The average new player is likely here BECAUSE of the allure of those things. We all know this. So for a new player to encounter these unfamiliar systems and not exhibit at least a modicum of skepticism before engaging with them is totally indefensible.
ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#595 - 2014-02-26 14:32:28 UTC
I have removed a rule breaking post.

The rules:

4. Personal attacks are prohibited.

Commonly known as flaming, personal attacks are posts that are designed to personally berate or insult another forum user. Posts of this nature are not beneficial to the community spirit that CCP promote and as such they will not be tolerated.

ISD Ezwal Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

Goldiiee
Bureau of Astronomical Anomalies
#596 - 2014-02-26 14:33:34 UTC
Mu-Shi Ai wrote:
Jta Grl wrote:
If players knew there is a possibility of the order not being filled when they sell the item to it they would buy overpriced items with conscience of the risk. This is not like a double isk scam. New market players have no means to understand the risk other than other locals screaming Margin Trading scam to the contracts that show up.


Yes, they are able to understand the risk. It's called learning about market trading in EVE before you dump hundreds of millions of PLEX cash into a scam. The Margin Trading scam is probably the single most talked about scam in EVE right now. New players could simply type "scam" into a forum search and find posts about it. Before getting into trading, they could go to the forums and create a post asking about trading-related scams, and they would certainly receive numerous replies detailing the Margin Trading scam, how it works, and how to detect/avoid it. This alone is a far better antidote than anything mechanical that you could introduce to the game, because not only is it effective in that superior "teach a man to fish" way, but it doesn't impose unfair limitations on a skill that enormous numbers of traders use legitimately to do their business.

What limitation to legitimate marketers would be imposed if the orders without ISK (or escrowed margin account) to back up a minimum purchase were removed? The Buyer isn't mad because his order was going to fail the next time someone tried it anyways, in the current iteration. The seller isn't mad because he didn't purchase an overpriced item to fill a deceitful order, unlike in the current iteration. And we have taught a man to fish by actually making marketing a true to UI tool, rather than an even more convoluted guessing game.

Things that keep me up at night;  Why do we use a voice communication device to send telegraphs? Moore's Law should state, Once you have paid off the last PC upgrade you will need another.

Jta Grl
2 Pingeons Incorporated
#597 - 2014-02-26 14:47:52 UTC
Mu-Shi Ai wrote:
Jta Grl wrote:
If players knew there is a possibility of the order not being filled when they sell the item to it they would buy overpriced items with conscience of the risk. This is not like a double isk scam. New market players have no means to understand the risk other than other locals screaming Margin Trading scam to the contracts that show up.


Yes, they are able to understand the risk. It's called learning about market trading in EVE before you dump hundreds of millions of PLEX cash into a scam. The Margin Trading scam is probably the single most talked about scam in EVE right now. New players could simply type "scam" into a forum search and find posts about it. Before getting into trading, they could go to the forums and create a post asking about trading-related scams, and they would certainly receive numerous replies detailing the Margin Trading scam, how it works, and how to detect/avoid it. This alone is a far better antidote than anything mechanical that you could introduce to the game, because not only is it effective in that superior "teach a man to fish" way, but it doesn't impose unfair limitations on a skill that enormous numbers of traders use legitimately to do their business.


How can you tell a forum poster is not lying about something just like a in-game player is? You can't. Games need neutral entities to support new players. You don't just give someone a handful of cards and tell him: "play". Let's say the game is poker 2.0. Have you ever played poker 2.0? Too bad you didn't knew in poker 2.0 you can have aces on your sleeves, I won the game. You could have asked to someone at the bar about 2.0 rules but you didn't, too bad.
Mu-Shi Ai
Hosono House
#598 - 2014-02-26 15:00:07 UTC
Goldiiee wrote:
What limitation to legitimate marketers would be imposed if the orders without ISK (or escrowed margin account) to back up a minimum purchase were removed?


That's simple. A limitation on the possibility that the order could be covered before somebody tries to sell to it.

Quote:
The Buyer isn't mad because his order was going to fail the next time someone tried it anyways, in the current iteration.


Not if it was covered before somebody tried to sell to it. Under your proposed change, the system forgoes that possibility automatically, thereby breaking the Margin Trading skill. I don't care if you're just talking about the ability to cover one unit at any given time. A nerf is a nerf. Not only do I think it's unfair in and of itself, but even a supposedly "small" nerf just opens the door for more later on.
Mu-Shi Ai
Hosono House
#599 - 2014-02-26 15:04:59 UTC
Jta Grl wrote:
How can you tell a forum poster is not lying about something just like a in-game player is? You can't.


Easy. Cross-check the information you've been given with forum posts about the same topic. Also, this is a moot point because we both know that the Margin Trading scam has been detailed truthfully on these forums in an exhaustive manner countless times.

Part of the way that EVE has always educated new players is through the forum community. It is a massive resource. To treat it like it doesn't exist just because it's not embedded in the game is ridiculous.

Goldiiee
Bureau of Astronomical Anomalies
#600 - 2014-02-26 15:23:30 UTC
Mu-Shi Ai wrote:
A nerf is a nerf. Not only do I think it's unfair in and of itself, but even a supposedly "small" nerf just opens the door for more later on.

Fallacies like 'Slippery Slope' are a poor substitute for an actual fix to a broken UI.

Things that keep me up at night;  Why do we use a voice communication device to send telegraphs? Moore's Law should state, Once you have paid off the last PC upgrade you will need another.