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[Kronos] Pirate Faction Frigates

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Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#281 - 2014-02-25 18:22:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Harvey James
Rainbow Eyes wrote:
Cruor looks either as kiter or scramrange. If he has a bonus to range web`s, Cruor can`t fulfill bonus neut/vampires.

Logicaly so: scramrange: bonus to Web effectiveness and vampire/neutralizer effectiveness, disraptor range: bonus to range web`s and vampires/neut, BUT far beyond range of scram!!! Range of web`s and vampire must be equal, i think 17-20km looks good.



what would look nicer is

CRUOR

Amarr Frigate Bonus:
10% bonus to Energy Vampire and Energy Neutralizer effectiveness (-5%)
15% bonus to Energy Vampire and Energy Neutralizer range

Minmatar Frigate Bonus:
15% bonus to Stasis Webifier range (was 10% bonus to Stasis Webifier effectiveness)

Role Bonus:
100% bonus to Small Energy Turret damage
7.5% bonus to Small Energy Turret optimal range
note: Energy Vampires operate as though your capacitor is empty (this wording is work in progress)


Slot layout: 4H, 3M, 3L; 2 turrets, 0 launchers
Fittings: 50 PWG(-7), 140 CPU(+3)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 480(-103) / 740(+83) / 580(-2)
Capacitor (amount / recharge / cap per second) : 470 / 205000 (-29375) / 2.24 (+.23)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 330(+22) / 3.6 / 1003000 / 5.01s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 10(+10) / 10(+10)
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 33km(+8km) / 760 / 6
Sensor strength: 12
Signature radius: 35

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
PinkKnife
The Cuddlefish
Ethereal Dawn
#282 - 2014-02-25 18:23:17 UTC  |  Edited by: PinkKnife
X Gallentius wrote:
Succabus will be able to do that. AND because of web range bonus it will be able to catch stuff more quickly and more easily deagress outside of scram range of the target.

The opponent with AB/Web/Scram will not be able to hold down a Succabus with AB/Web/Scram because the Succabus will be a hell of a lot faster.


Web range bonus?

I mean I get it, its fast, but you still can't hit **** while being fast, and you still can't tank anything in comparison. At the end of the day you're both in range and slow'ish, but the Sansha boat can't tank because its slots are used by web/scram, and it can't hit/dps because lasers are outclassed at that range by everything else.

Yes its fast, but its at best, the most "meh" of the group. What role is this filling?

You need a beefier tracking bonus JUST to use the AB bonus at this point.
Brad314
Perkone
Caldari State
#283 - 2014-02-25 18:24:36 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
A couple more clarifications:

  • I said 'old nos' in the OP but that can be a bit confusing considering there has been a few different versions. The description provided by bobfrommarketing (I think thats who it was) is very accurate - "Energy Vampires fitted to this ship will drain targeted ship's capacitor regardless of your own capacitor level". So, it will NOT continue to generate cap when your target is empty, it just doesn't have the same limitation has normal nos where you must have less cap than your target.

  • It's been mentioned that the missile damage bonus on the Worm doesn't make sense as a Gallente bonus and should be on the role bonus. I agree that it would be ideal to have it that way in terms of flavor but giving a 60% per level bonus would mean that the ship was basically unusable until you had Gallente Frigate 5 and we really don't like that. And I've also seen at least one person say they thought we were done with damage type specific bonuses, and we are not. It's a nice tool to use in certain places.

  • I can confirm that 10mn AB Succbus is gross, it's 5k/sec or something before links. We are ok with this.

  • In the post I quoted above I just meant to highlight that we are not limited to 300% for the other Guristas ships, but again, let's talk about those when we get to them.

  • Oh and on the Succubus, while we may make small changes to cap for Sansha in general, it is likely that cap will continue to be one of the larger weaknesses. The Succubus has very solid cap stats already and we don't want to use up a bonus to make it even better. If the other advantages the ship offers don't outweigh the cap difficulty we will make a change to something.




    • Why am I reminded of this:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ygE01sOhzz0#aid=P-gaT73muQs
    X Gallentius
    Black Eagle1
    #284 - 2014-02-25 18:25:37 UTC
    Michael Harari wrote:
    X Gallentius wrote:
    Silivar Karkun wrote:
    as people have pointed, the sansha need something to cover the capacitor problems, having shields+lazors+AB seems to be suicide, you could give it a bonus to laser cap consumption, or shield boosting amount, even a shield boost capacitor reduction, something that i've never heard in any other ship.

    Isn't that what the NOS bonus is supposed to do?


    The nos bonus is on blood raiders.

    But 2 guns with a 125% damage bonus IS a cap use bonus, so I dont really see a problem.

    My bad, sorry. But with the reduction of one laser and the addition of a nos it seems feasible to keep the ship cap stable. An extra low slot allows you to put on a MAPC if you need power grid.
    Michael Harari
    Genos Occidere
    HYDRA RELOADED
    #285 - 2014-02-25 18:26:30 UTC
    PinkKnife wrote:
    X Gallentius wrote:
    Succabus will be able to do that. AND because of web range bonus it will be able to catch stuff more quickly and more easily deagress outside of scram range of the target.

    The opponent with AB/Web/Scram will not be able to hold down a Succabus with AB/Web/Scram because the Succabus will be a hell of a lot faster.


    Web range bonus?

    I mean I get it, its fast, but you still can't hit **** while being fast, and you still can't tank anything in comparison. At the end of the day you're both in range and slow'ish, but the Sansha boat can't tank because its slots are used by web/scram, and it can't hit/dps because lasers are outclassed at that range by everything else.

    Yes its fast, but its at best, the most "meh" of the group. What role is this filling?


    What weapon system is doing more damage than small pulse lasers at the edge of scram range?
    Mike Voidstar
    Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
    #286 - 2014-02-25 18:28:20 UTC
    I will grant that the whole Sansha shipline has always struggled with cap issues...

    But honestly, has no one ever heard of the ASB? Its not like active shield tanks are tied to capacitor anymore. They have not even fixed them so you can only fit one per hull yet like they did with the cruddy armor version.

    That afterburner bonus makes this ship murderous. I am almost reminded of the days before they nerfed all the fun things you could do with speed mods back in the day.
    X Gallentius
    Black Eagle1
    #287 - 2014-02-25 18:28:21 UTC
    PinkKnife wrote:
    X Gallentius wrote:
    Succabus will be able to do that. AND because of web range bonus it will be able to catch stuff more quickly and more easily deagress outside of scram range of the target.

    The opponent with AB/Web/Scram will not be able to hold down a Succabus with AB/Web/Scram because the Succabus will be a hell of a lot faster.


    Web range bonus?
    Sorry had mental breakdown and equated Succabus with Cruor. Still pretty powerful ship.
    Mournful Conciousness
    Federal Navy Academy
    Gallente Federation
    #288 - 2014-02-25 18:29:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Mournful Conciousness
    Bertrand Butler wrote:
    Mournful Conciousness wrote:
    Everything seems reasonable to me until I get this this bit...
    CCP Rise wrote:

    Role Bonus:
    300% bonus to light combat drone damage and hitpoints

    ... which just seems icky.

    I would prefer to see 5 light drones fielded with a 150% modifier to drone HP and damage, which is roughly the same effect but somewhat more elegant and in keeping existing mechanics.

    I am interested as to the reason for choosing a limited number of drones with a very high multiplier (which seems difficult to justify in any reasonable narrative). If it was because of concerns about server performance, I would argue that these concerns are unwarranted.


    The fact that your flight will do the equivalent damage of 8 drones until an equivalent of 4 of them are killed eludes you? Or the fact that your frigate stores now the equivalent of 20 scout drones?


    If I understand you correctly you are saying that the 2-drone solution creates a longer delay before drone damage is reduced by someone killing your drones, whereas in the 5-drone solution your damage is reduced more linearly.

    None of this was lost on me (thank you for the unnecessary implied ad-hominem). I cannot see that it will have a significant effect on overall damage output when replacement drones are used during the course of a fight.

    Mechanics (and sniping) aside, my position remains unanswered. In what narrative would the same drones suddenly become 4 times as strong merely by being controlled by a given ship?

    Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
    Silivar Karkun
    Doomheim
    #289 - 2014-02-25 18:29:07 UTC
    sanshas:

    caldari bonus: 10% reduction in shield booster capacitor need or 10% in laser capacitor need

    amarr bonus: 7,5% laser optimal range and tracking

    role bonus: 100% bonus to laser turret damage
    Michael Harari
    Genos Occidere
    HYDRA RELOADED
    #290 - 2014-02-25 18:30:47 UTC
    Mournful Conciousness wrote:


    Mechanics (and sniping) aside, my position remains unanswered. In what narrative would the same drones suddenly become 4 times as strong merely by being controlled by a given ship?


    Enhanced drone damage control algorithms in dedicated drone subprocessors.

    Or nanites. Or whatever, lore shouldnt dictate gameplay.
    Silivar Karkun
    Doomheim
    #291 - 2014-02-25 18:32:47 UTC
    the thing is clear, you want the guristas to be unique?, give them a drone control bonus, no other (non special edition) subcap can do that......
    Mournful Conciousness
    Federal Navy Academy
    Gallente Federation
    #292 - 2014-02-25 18:34:37 UTC
    Michael Harari wrote:
    Mournful Conciousness wrote:


    Mechanics (and sniping) aside, my position remains unanswered. In what narrative would the same drones suddenly become 4 times as strong merely by being controlled by a given ship?


    Enhanced drone damage control algorithms in dedicated drone subprocessors.

    Or nanites. Or whatever, lore shouldnt dictate gameplay.


    fielding 2 super-drones over 5 normal ones that have the same overall performance does not significantly alter gameplay, so why not try to keep the narrative believable, if that's more pleasing to people like me?

    If we do not take care over the story line we open ourselves up to the idea of space-wizard flying laser-eyed galactic sharks. I don't think I'd want to play that game.

    Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
    Riot Girl
    You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
    #293 - 2014-02-25 18:34:54 UTC
    Hey, people crying about cap. You're the reason we have a crappy Navy Armageddon that no one uses.

    Oh god.
    Uriel Paradisi Anteovnuecci
    Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
    Arataka Research Consortium
    #294 - 2014-02-25 18:36:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Uriel Paradisi Anteovnuecci
    I saw a few people saying things about a missile-centric caldari/minmatar faction (even Rise mentioned it), so I figured I'd show this here: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=325023&find=unread

    "A City made of Dreams is built in heaven"
    Jon Joringer
    Republic University
    Minmatar Republic
    #295 - 2014-02-25 18:38:33 UTC
    Still not sold on the Blood line. I'm a bit OCD about things, so I definitely appreciate that Blood bonuses are the same up the whole line, but that just doesn't seem to work.

    Bhaalgorn works because heavy neuts/nos and its guns have the same range profile as its range bonused webs (not to mention it has the mid-slots to field more than one web, so it effectively usually has a stength bonus as well). Great! Ashimmu's gun range with Scorch will work with range bonused webs, but its neuts/nos are going to be useless at those ranges. The Cruor is even worse off because its guns don't even have enough range to take advantage of range bonused webs, let alone its even shorter ranged neuts/nos.

    I'm just struggling to see how you think the Cruor/Ashimmu are going to be used. At one range, half its bonuses are useless, at another, the other half of its bonuses are useless.
    Damien White
    Deep Core Mining Inc.
    Caldari State
    #296 - 2014-02-25 18:38:38 UTC
    Can someone explain to me the reason behind a tracking buff for a frigate?

    97% of girls would die if Justin Bieber were about to jump off a cliff. Post this in your sig if you`re part of the 3% yelling,

    "DO A BARREL ROLL!"
    Michael Harari
    Genos Occidere
    HYDRA RELOADED
    #297 - 2014-02-25 18:39:32 UTC
    Damien White wrote:
    Can someone explain to me the reason behind a tracking buff for a frigate?


    So it can track better?
    Riot Girl
    You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
    #298 - 2014-02-25 18:40:30 UTC
    Damien White wrote:
    Can someone explain to me the reason behind a tracking buff for a frigate?

    200% AB velocity?

    Oh god.
    Bertrand Butler
    Cras es Noster
    #299 - 2014-02-25 18:42:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Bertrand Butler
    Mournful Conciousness wrote:

    If I understand you correctly you are saying that the 2-drone solution creates a longer delay before drone damage is reduced by someone killing your drones, whereas in the 5-drone solution your damage is reduced more linearly.

    None of this was lost on me (thank you for the unnecessary implied ad-hominem). I cannot see that it will have a significant effect on overall damage output when replacement drones are used during the course of a fight.

    Mechanics (and sniping) aside, my position remains unanswered. In what narrative would the same drones suddenly become 4 times as strong merely by being controlled by a given ship?


    No ad-hominem intended, really. Sorry for that, my english is not perfect.

    What I am trying to say is that if you do the math, the overall damage output will be much higher. Even with adjustments for multiple targeting/weapon cycling. More benefits for the bonus would be added resilience against EoE (sbs) and npcs, server optimization if/when scaling becomes an issue, good scaling of rigs like the drone durability enhancer for example (that went unused due to a nasty CPU bite), more effective drone bay capacity (20 scout drones for the new worm) etc.

    The downsides for this change would be a nerf to versatility when using the hull as a support drone boat (by tying the bonus to a specific drone type and removing effective bandwidth for other types).

    Overall, I really like it, and can already think of a couple of PvP applications that will make the hull very good (hell, the Taipan was better than it before the change).

    Regarding your lore/narrative objection, think about all hulls that get big bonuses, from turrets/launchers to rep modules etc. Thats the same turrets and launchers used in other ships without getting the bonus.
    Silivar Karkun
    Doomheim
    #300 - 2014-02-25 18:42:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Silivar Karkun
    WORM

    Gallente Frigate Bonus:
    +1 aditional drone per lvl or 20% drone damage and hitpoints

    Caldari Frigate Bonus:
    4% bonus to all shield resistances

    Role Bonus:
    100% to rocket and light missile damage and max velocity


    Slot layout: 3H, 4M, 3L; 0 turrets, 2 launchers
    Fittings: 40 PWG(+5), 180 CPU(+20)
    Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 1100 / 500(-82) / 620(-3)
    Capacitor (amount / recharge / cap per second) : 380(+30) / 212000 (-22375) / 1.79 (+.29)
    Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 320(+33) / 3.8(+.31) / 965000 / 5.17s(+.42)
    Drones (bandwidth / bay): 50/50
    Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 30km / 650 / 5
    Sensor strength: 15
    Signature radius: 40