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[Kronos] Pirate Faction Frigates

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Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#261 - 2014-02-25 18:03:56 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
Silivar Karkun wrote:
as people have pointed, the sansha need something to cover the capacitor problems, having shields+lazors+AB seems to be suicide, you could give it a bonus to laser cap consumption, or shield boosting amount, even a shield boost capacitor reduction, something that i've never heard in any other ship.

Isn't that what the NOS bonus is supposed to do?


The nos bonus is on blood raiders.

But 2 guns with a 125% damage bonus IS a cap use bonus, so I dont really see a problem.
Mike Flynn
Energy
#262 - 2014-02-25 18:06:30 UTC
mynnna wrote:
To those curious (and old enough, to be fair), the plain english translation of the Cruor's bonus is "NOS fitted on this ship work like old pre-nerf NOS." Twisted


The wording in the description could read something such as...

Energy Vampires work regardless of targets capacitor status
Bertrand Butler
Cras es Noster
#263 - 2014-02-25 18:06:50 UTC
Anya Klibor wrote:
So, I Decided to do some early comparison (and I am using the Worm as the base template here for the Rattlesnake).

Assuming the following:

- Caldari Battleship skill: 10% bonus to Torpedo, Cruise Missile, and Heavy Missile Thermal/Kinetic damage/level
- Role bonus: Heavy drones get +37.5% bonus to damage
- Rattlesnake can field 2 heavy drones
- No change in launcher numbers

For comparison reasons, I am assuming all level 5 skills, as well as only weapon systems being present, no damage modifiers or tank modifiers.

The Scorpion Navy Issue in it's current iteration surpasses it. The Rattlesnake will bring slightly more tank, and with an extra low slot can fit either a Drone Damage Amplifier or Ballistic Control Unit more than the Scorpion Navy Issue. However, even using Thermal or Kinetic torpedoes the Rattlesnake falls behind the Scorpion Navy Issue by ~150 DPS. The Scorpion Navy Issue can field 6 launchers, where-as the Rattlesnake can field 4. The SNI also has a RoF bonus, meaning that the damage bonus is applied evenly to all forms of damage.

In this case, the Scorpion Navy Issue wins out.


You cannot do a comparison for a ship that is not balanced yet. As said by Rise, the damage multi, drone type and drone bandwidth for Gila and RS can (and probably will) be different than what seen in the worm.
CCP Rise
C C P
C C P Alliance
#264 - 2014-02-25 18:07:06 UTC
Since it's come up a few times, even though I'm not talking about cruisers in this thread, in current sketches the Vigilant would gain 14k lock range. Don't you worry.

@ccp_rise
Capqu
Half Empty
xqtywiznalamywmodxfhhopawzpqyjdwrpeptuaenabjawdzku
#265 - 2014-02-25 18:07:41 UTC
Is the 125% damage bonus coded the same as a 100% damage bonus and a 25% bonus? or is it worse? seems worse to me since the old bonus effectively gave dmg * 2 * 1.25 where as the new bonus gives dmg * 2.25

Succubus really doesn't need a damage nerf

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5tVbVu9Mkg
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#266 - 2014-02-25 18:07:48 UTC
Everything seems reasonable to me until I get this this bit...
CCP Rise wrote:

Role Bonus:
300% bonus to light combat drone damage and hitpoints

... which just seems icky.

I would prefer to see 5 light drones fielded with a 150% modifier to drone HP and damage, which is roughly the same effect but somewhat more elegant and in keeping existing mechanics.

I am interested as to the reason for choosing a limited number of drones with a very high multiplier (which seems difficult to justify in any reasonable narrative). If it was because of concerns about server performance, I would argue that these concerns are unwarranted.

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#267 - 2014-02-25 18:08:05 UTC
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Ok after a bit of thinking, my thoughts

The succubus has really dumb bonuses. 7.5% lets it have blaster tracking with glatlings.. so thats not great.

The AB bonus lets it.. scram kite i guess? But it doesn't have a range bonus so that won't really work that well. Tracking bonuses are really really weak and should be higher than 7.5% on a frigate to be useful. All in all i think its pretty bad.

I'm thinking it might work better with beams.

Oh god.
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#268 - 2014-02-25 18:08:30 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
A couple more clarifications:

  • I said 'old nos' in the OP but that can be a bit confusing considering there has been a few different versions. The description provided by bobfrommarketing (I think thats who it was) is very accurate - "Energy Vampires fitted to this ship will drain targeted ship's capacitor regardless of your own capacitor level". So, it will NOT continue to generate cap when your target is empty, it just doesn't have the same limitation has normal nos where you must have less cap than your target.

  • It's been mentioned that the missile damage bonus on the Worm doesn't make sense as a Gallente bonus and should be on the role bonus. I agree that it would be ideal to have it that way in terms of flavor but giving a 60% per level bonus would mean that the ship was basically unusable until you had Gallente Frigate 5 and we really don't like that. And I've also seen at least one person say they thought we were done with damage type specific bonuses, and we are not. It's a nice tool to use in certain places.

  • I can confirm that 10mn AB Succbus is gross, it's 5k/sec or something before links. We are ok with this.

  • In the post I quoted above I just meant to highlight that we are not limited to 300% for the other Guristas ships, but again, let's talk about those when we get to them.

  • Oh and on the Succubus, while we may make small changes to cap for Sansha in general, it is likely that cap will continue to be one of the larger weaknesses. The Succubus has very solid cap stats already and we don't want to use up a bonus to make it even better. If the other advantages the ship offers don't outweigh the cap difficulty we will make a change to something.

    • what exactly is the reasoning behind the gurista thing? why do you not just go with something more normal, like 75 bay, 25 bandwidth, and either a 100% or 200% drone damage/hp bonus?
    Rowells
    Blackwater USA Inc.
    Pandemic Horde
    #269 - 2014-02-25 18:08:38 UTC
    CCP Rise wrote:
    I can confirm that 10mn AB Succbus is gross, it's 5k/sec or something before links. We are ok with this.
    *Sheds manly tears. I love you Rise.
    Little Blackjack
    Money Savers Inc
    #270 - 2014-02-25 18:08:42 UTC
    CCP Rise wrote:
    Jasen Harper wrote:
    As a "perfect" Tachmare pilot, I would like to find out if I am going to be losing 25% of my turret damage.

    I was never real good at math so how does this stack with 100% hull bonus and how might this (trading turret damage bonus with AB speed bonus) effect that?


    You will have to wait for the Battleship thread to know for sure, and I'm not past internal review steps with those yet so I don't even know, but I can say that there is no chance of you losing 25% of your DPS. That would be ridiculous.


    signed.
    The oposite is needed.
    X Gallentius
    Black Eagle1
    #271 - 2014-02-25 18:09:25 UTC  |  Edited by: X Gallentius
    PinkKnife wrote:

    How is the AB bonus that much inherently better than the MWD bonus?
    Uses less capacitor, does not turn off when scrammed, "sig radius bonus" of 100% instead of 50%.

    The second one is huge. Usually the inherent penalty for zooming into a target quickly to get a hard point scram is that when you get scrammed you're screwed (without using fitting slots and CPU/Grid on a second prop mod). Succabus will be able to do that. AND because of web range bonus it will be able to catch stuff more quickly and more easily deagress outside of scram range of the target.

    The opponent with AB/Web/Scram will not be able to hold down a Succabus with AB/Web/Scram because the Succabus will be a hell of a lot faster.
    Bertrand Butler
    Cras es Noster
    #272 - 2014-02-25 18:09:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Bertrand Butler
    Mournful Conciousness wrote:
    Everything seems reasonable to me until I get this this bit...
    CCP Rise wrote:

    Role Bonus:
    300% bonus to light combat drone damage and hitpoints

    ... which just seems icky.

    I would prefer to see 5 light drones fielded with a 150% modifier to drone HP and damage, which is roughly the same effect but somewhat more elegant and in keeping existing mechanics.

    I am interested as to the reason for choosing a limited number of drones with a very high multiplier (which seems difficult to justify in any reasonable narrative). If it was because of concerns about server performance, I would argue that these concerns are unwarranted.


    The fact that your flight will do the equivalent damage of 8 drones until an equivalent of 4 of them are killed eludes you? Or the fact that your frigate stores now the equivalent of 20 scout drones?
    Little Blackjack
    Money Savers Inc
    #273 - 2014-02-25 18:10:11 UTC
    Harvey James wrote:
    CCP Rise wrote:
    Jasen Harper wrote:
    As a "perfect" Tachmare pilot, I would like to find out if I am going to be losing 25% of my turret damage.

    I was never real good at math so how does this stack with 100% hull bonus and how might this (trading turret damage bonus with AB speed bonus) effect that?


    You will have to wait for the Battleship thread to know for sure, and I'm not past internal review steps with those yet so I don't even know, but I can say that there is no chance of you losing 25% of your DPS. That would be ridiculous.


    will the NM have its 20th slot? and at least 6 turrets?


    No. 300% on lasers role bonus. Pirate
    Silivar Karkun
    Doomheim
    #274 - 2014-02-25 18:11:58 UTC
    X Gallentius wrote:
    Silivar Karkun wrote:
    as people have pointed, the sansha need something to cover the capacitor problems, having shields+lazors+AB seems to be suicide, you could give it a bonus to laser cap consumption, or shield boosting amount, even a shield boost capacitor reduction, something that i've never heard in any other ship.

    Isn't that what the NOS bonus is supposed to do?


    SANSHAS no blood raiders
    Connor Frost
    Transcendent Innovations Incorporated
    #275 - 2014-02-25 18:13:26 UTC
    First I will state that the Rattlesnake is hands down my favorite ship in the game. That goes for PVP and PVE and I feel like the drone number loss is going to be a significant disadvantage. Even given the increased HP on drones there are fewer drones for players and NPCs to have to target at kill. Its a pain to use Drones in PVE as it is and this seems to only make it worse.

    I may be biased cause I love the rattle how it is and prefer minor tweaks over larger changes.
    Rainbow Eyes
    Sora no Otoshimano
    #276 - 2014-02-25 18:15:23 UTC
    Cruor looks either as kiter or scramrange. If he has a bonus to range web`s, Cruor can`t fulfill bonus neut/vampires.

    Logicaly so: scramrange: bonus to Web effectiveness and vampire/neutralizer effectiveness, disraptor range: bonus to range web`s and vampires/neut, BUT far beyond range of scram!!! Range of web`s and vampire must be equal, i think 17-20km looks good.
    Little Blackjack
    Money Savers Inc
    #277 - 2014-02-25 18:16:22 UTC
    As for the "special feature", instead of adding 100% AB bonus, you could make a Sansha imune to part of the webs, e.g.

    SUCCUBUS:
    10% (or 15%) reduction per level of enemy webs

    Means, if you are being webbed 90%, this web is effective only 45% (or 23%) with Level V.

    This avoids overpowered/overspeeded sansha boats when not webbed but gives a nice add on if webbed.
    Silivar Karkun
    Doomheim
    #278 - 2014-02-25 18:20:01 UTC
    other idea for the guristas:

    gallente bonus: +1 aditional drone per lvl or 20% damage and hitpoints

    caldari bonus: 4% to all shield resistances

    role bonus: 100% missile max velocity and damage

    notes: give the gila and the worm the same insane buffer that the rattlesnake gets, i mean, for example, the worm's shield HP could get increased to be more than the T2 versions of the merlin
    TrouserDeagle
    Beyond Divinity Inc
    Shadow Cartel
    #279 - 2014-02-25 18:21:32 UTC
    Little Blackjack wrote:
    As for the "special feature", instead of adding 100% AB bonus, you could make a Sansha imune to part of the webs, e.g.

    SUCCUBUS:
    10% (or 15%) reduction per level of enemy webs

    Means, if you are being webbed 90%, this web is effective only 45% (or 23%) with Level V.

    This avoids overpowered/overspeeded sansha boats when not webbed but gives a nice add on if webbed.


    I like this, but for serpentis instead of the web thing. you get your range dictation so you can apply deeps, but you don't get enable ******** dread blapping and silly gatecamps all that.
    Little Blackjack
    Money Savers Inc
    #280 - 2014-02-25 18:21:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Little Blackjack
    Striscio wrote:
    Little Blackjack wrote:
    CompleteFailure wrote:
    elitatwo wrote:

    2 light, 300% bonus = 8 effective (remember they already do 100% dmg before bonus :P)
    +1


    Itago Gemulus wrote:
    2 drones +300% = 2+6 (2=100% ->300%=6) for a total of 8 effective drones


    It's 6 effective drones. You're not adding 300%, you're multiplying by 300%

    300% = 3.00

    2*3.00 = 6

    learn2maths


    Your answer is the answer to "how much is 300% of 2 drones?".
    We are looking for "how much is 300% BONUS on 2 drones".

    100% bonus (!) means you add the bonus to the 100% basics. If you salary receives 100% bonus, you will receive 10.000 Euro instead of base salary of 5.000 Euro. math is (5000 *100%) + (5000 *100%) = 10.000

    300% Bonus (!) means
    (2 drones * 100%) + (2 drones * 300% bonus) = 2 drones * 400% = 8 drones



    In Before "that's 400%!".


    25% bonus doesn't mean a ship deal 75% of it's normal damage. Idea


    Thats correct, it means 400% of total amount and at the same time 300% bonus. not that difficult, isnt it?
    25% bonus means a ship deals 125% in total and is calculated 100%+(100%*25%)= 125% . In above example its 100%+(100%*300%) = 400% in total and 300% BONUS.

    got it?